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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 09-15-2007
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Question Rot: the basics (small boats)

Here I am, still shopping for my first boat -- so please pardon my ignorance about this very basic issue. I am pretty sure now about what size, hull shape, sail configuration, etc., I want, and I have more or less decided on a boat that is less than 10 years old, about 15' LOA. Now I am worried about wood, and specifically, about rot in 'fiberglass' boats. External wood trim is fine: I am not averse to a bit of annual maintenance/varnishing. It's the stuff on the inside that worries me. I don't fancy the idea that hidden underneath a pristine surface there may be important and vulnerable pieces of wood that are basically inaccessible...and I'm not exactly enthusiastic about trying to replace such things. So here are some basic questions I would love to have answered:

1) Is it true that most small fiberglass boats have wood support structures that will eventually rot?

2) Are there builders who do not use wood? Is that what "all-fiberglass hull" means, or does that description exclude other things hidden away between deck and hull? (I know about the Cape Cod Bullseye...are there others that are wood-free?)

3) Of course there must be different grades of wood used by those that use it. What should I be looking for/asking about?

4) How quickly does wood rot set in? Is this something I need to be worried about for instance with a 2-year-old boat that has sat in the marina parking lot for its entire life? If I get a boat in good condition and make sure it's dry in the winter, will rot still be a problem?

Please advise me! (And sorry again if this is a stupid question. I have a lot to learn....)
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Old 09-15-2007
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Hello IslandGirl , No stupid questions only stupid answers (hopefully this isnt one of them). Ok first of all a boat less than ten yrs old is not going to give you any trouble with rot that you need to worry about especially on a 15' daysailor. They only spend so much time in the water to start with and the rest of the time there on the hard ,drying out . So dont concern yourself too much with that . For example my wee daysailor is going on 40yrs now and the wood under the glass that did rot and did need to be replaced and re glassed did not stop us from sailing her routhlessly. Second if your really bothered by water in the structure , get a moisture meter (beg borrow or rent one) The last thing to do is to get a survey done , and after looking at the price of the Cape Cod Bullseye you may just want to go ahead and do just that. Find a Marine Surveyor that has no interest in the sale and get a survey done. Looks like a very nice raceboat I wish you well with your purchase and a blast racing.
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Old 09-16-2007
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Don't ever feel stupid for asking a question. Feel stupid for thinking that it's more important to look smart than it is to learn.


Quote:
1) Is it true that most small fiberglass boats have wood support structures that will eventually rot?
No - it is true that most small fibreglass boats have wooden componenets somewhere that COULD eventually rot.

Quote:
2) Are there builders who do not use wood? Is that what "all-fiberglass hull" means, or does that description exclude other things hidden away between deck and hull? (I know about the Cape Cod Bullseye...are there others that are wood-free?)
'All-fibreglass' usually means that there is no core material in the hull. Fibreglass boats can be broken down into two categories - cored hulls and solid hulls. The first FRP (fibre-reinforced plastic) boats were built using lots of resin and lots of fibreglass. They were built a layer at a time. As one layer started to set, the next layer was applied on top of it, while the preceding layer was still slightly adhesive in order to allow for a chemical as well as a physicl bond between the two layers. The centreline, bottom and lower side areas of the boats were usually thicker than the middle of the sides and the fibreglass was thinnest (but still substantial) at the top along the sheer line (where the deck meets the hull).

Initially, these layers of glass were applied by hand and then resin was brushed on to the fibreglass and 'worked in' with brushes and specialised rollers to get the fibreglass thoroughly saturated, thereby ensuring it's strength and structural integrity. It takes a long time to do this properly, as air bubbles form very easily and frequently in the resin during the layup process. This is referred to as "hand lay-up" and it is still a practise in many boatyards.

As fibreglass boats became dominant in the marketplace, manufacturers began to experiment with various techniques to speed up the manufacturing process and build better quality hulls. They also began to look for ways to save money.

Hence, chopped strand mat which is basically a porridge of very short glass fibres suspended in resin, became popular for a while. It is shot from a spray gun and can be applied very quickly. It has very little structural integrity though and is seldom used today, and never ( I hope) for any part that will be subject to stress or wear.

In the early seventies, cored hulls made their first appearance on the mass market. They were introduced in an effort to save both weight and money. At the time, gas prices were quite high, hence the cost of resin had increased dramatically. It was determined that by using a lightweight core between two thin layers of fibreglass, boats could theoretically be built stronger for less money, as the core material was less costly than fibreglass resin.

They had the added benefit of being better insulated and in some cases, stiffer, than solid glass hulls. The most widely used core material was end-grain balsa wood.

Many boatyards had been using this method of construction for decks for a few years, in order to add stiffness while minimising weight. The coring material used for the decks varied widely, some yards preferring plywood, some using balsa, some even using Masonite.

As the years went by, it became apparent that where there were cores, there were potential problems. In a nutshell, the cores can get wet and rot inside the boat, with no visible external signs of deterioration.

Today, there are many manufacurers that make cored hulls, but a lot of them have moved from balsa and plywood to synthetic materials such as Airex or Core-Cell et. al.

The synthetics don't rot, but they can still get wet, and the flexing of the inner and outer skins of the boat as it sails can make the cells of the foam operate like little diaphragm pumps, forcing the wetness throughout the structure.

If any and all holes through the cored sections are properly sealed, it is not likely that wetness will become a major issue with either a cored hull or deck. The big problem though, is that when one buys a used boat, one has no idea of what kind of maintenance or repair has been performed on it, or whether it was done properly, so the wet core is a definite possibility.

A survey can frequently identify problems areas with a deck and can sometimes identify problems with hulls, but it is still a somewhat inexact science.

Solid glass hulls do not suffer from these problems, however they can still suffer from osmotic dissolution, delamination and UV deterioration. Fibreglass is water-resistant, it is not waterproof, so eventually hulls absorb water. An awful lot of the resins used in boatbuilding can actually dissolve in water, so this introduces a whole host of other problems BUT it (usually) takes so long for the resin to dissolve that it is more a point of scientific curiosity than a real cause for concern.

Oswmotic blistering and 'the pox' are pretty commonplace with hulls that have net been barrier-coated, but the problem is usually cosmetic rather than structural. In all cases though, you need to investigate to determine that the osmosis is limited to the surface layer.

The exception to this would be some of the resin rformulations developed during the "energy crisis" at the time of the Carter Presidency. There were several made that were particularly vulnerable to osmotic deterioration.

Today, most new boats receive a 'barrier coat' of specialised epoxy resin, either at the time of manufacture, or shartly afterwards, and many older boats have been similarly protected by conscientious owners.

Quote:
3) Of course there must be different grades of wood used by those that use it. What should I be looking for/asking about?
The primary concern here is that all plywood, if there is any on the boat, be actual marine-grade plywood. This differs from standard plywood in that it is void-free ( there are no holes or irregularities that could become holes in any of the plies used to make the sheet), and it is manufactured using waterproof glues. The only glue that I am aware of that is truly waterproof is resorcinol glue. The best grades of marine plywood use this. It has a distinctive dark purple colour.

Other than that, make sure that wood is properly sealed everywhere. Exposed wood will wick water very quickly, then expand. This expansion can crack fibreglass effortlessly. If the wet wood is frozen, the expeansion of the water inside the cellulose, destroys the structure of the wood creating a rotten mush that will turn black and eventually smell.

Wood in salt water willl usually last far longer than wood in fresh water, as the chemicals in the brine serve to 'pickle' the wood and preserve it.

In many boats, areas of high stress are cored with plywood rather than balsa, as it has greater compressive strength and can stand up to tightening of bolts and such things better. It deteriorates more quickly than balsa when wet however, so if holes have not been sealed well. these are often problem areas for all boats.

Quote:
4) How quickly does wood rot set in? Is this something I need to be worried about for instance with a 2-year-old boat that has sat in the marina parking lot for its entire life? If I get a boat in good condition and make sure it's dry in the winter, will rot still be a problem?
Wet rot needs the correct combination of wood, water, temperature, and most importantly, bacteria to really get going. It is an organic process. It can happen at any time and progress fairly quickly or not at all.

That said, if you continue to take care of a boat that has been taken care of so far - it's not a big concern. If you keep your wood sealed properly, it may never set in. The wood will eventually need to be replacd due to structural fatigue, but it won't rot.

Quote:
Please advise me! (And sorry again if this is a stupid question. I have a lot to learn....)
If you like the boat and it is in good condition - buy it ! Get out there and don't be afraid to make mistakes, because sometimes the best way to learn what you should do is by doing what you shouldn't.

Last edited by Sailormann; 09-16-2007 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 09-17-2007
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Tnx

Thanks for the info -- much appreciated. I worried about this because my family did have a little powerboat that basically fell apart due to wood rotting under the fiberglass, in spite of its being well looked after. But this was back in the early 80s, so I imagine at least part of the problem was resin formulation.
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Old 09-17-2007
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Island Girl

Limiting your search to 10 years old or less may leave out a lot of very good boats at very good prices.

at 15 feet this is a vessel that will always be pretty close to shore with the occupants always wearing PFDs. Also at 15 feet it will not tie up a huge amount of money unless it is nearly new. For these reasons I see this concern to be less of an issue on a 15 foot boat than on a coastal cruiser in the 30 foot range. While still an issue it is less of one than some other factors.

We recently bought an old laser between three of us as a bang around boat at the cottage. It looked like hell but lasers are pretty simple boats and pretty easy to repair and clean up. The biggest issues I was worried about were how well it could be fixed up and the conditions of rigging and sails. At $1000 it would matter not very much if it fell apart after 2 - 3 years as it would be fun while it lasted.

One of the bigger concerns with water on these boats is the weight. If not racing then less of a concern.

I guess what I am saying is "What are you going to use the boat for?" That will limit you to a certain grouping of boats and decide how great the condition of sails, etc... needs to be and if a "heavy" boat is really that bad. If you are doing like us and sailing off a sandy beach less than 200 feet from shore with speedboats moored on said beach to help if you get in trouble then it is not as much a concern as if you were travelling miles on the boat. If for Jr sailing programs there is a crash boat always nearby, etc....

See if you can get a hold of a moisture meter from someone and get readings on the boat. That might give you a lot of indication of condition. Avoid painted boats as this may mean they may have had problems that were repaired - vs one in original gelcoat condition that shows its bumps and bruises ...

On a small boat my main concerns with weakened structure due to water/rot etc... would be with the rig failing where it attaches. I would be less inclined to worry about hull failure than this ...

Have fun picking a boat but do not wait too long while waiting for the right one. Is better to sail now than sit on the shore and watch for months. .. and 15 foot boats are pretty cheap so a bad buy is not going to kill you financially to the same extent as a car/house/yacht in poor condition ...

Mike
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