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  #1  
Old 10-16-2007
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Tartan Issue

Was wondering if a 1994 Tartan 3500 would fall into the current issues and speculations that are surrounding the Tartan name. Is there a cut-off year that would not be suspect to the hull problems?
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Old 10-17-2007
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I think we need to be aware that the "issues" do not effect ALL Tartan boats produced. If so, then there would need to be a total recall of the yachts. However, apparently there have been "issues", but I would not generalize that to all boats being produced by Tartan. I have placed an order for a 3400 and expect delivery in late November.

Last edited by 7Psych; 10-17-2007 at 09:33 AM.
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Old 10-17-2007
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So far, I haven't read about any problem boats built prior to year 2000. Does anyone have any evidence that there were issues on boats in the 90's?
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Old 10-17-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
So far, I haven't read about any problem boats built prior to year 2000. Does anyone have any evidence that there were issues on boats in the 90's?
It was my understandings that the problem was related to changing to an epoxy laminate so older boats, pre 2000 at least, are not affected. All things considered this is good because I have an older Tartan.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
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Old 10-17-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 7Psych View Post
I think we need to be aware that the "issues" do not effect ALL Tartan boats produced. If so, then there would need to be a total recall of the yachts. However, apparently there have been "issues", but I would not generalize that to all boats being produced by Tartan. I have placed an order for a 3400 and expect delivery in late November.
If there were a "total recall" I think you can assume the company could be forced into bankruptcy. So if there is a universal problem with their hull construction they are in a tough spot as a company. To admit the problem, or institute a recall of all of their boats, could be death to the company. What would they do if they recalled them? Replace the hull?

According to the company's literature they "advanced the art of boat building by constructing all of our hulls from a composite of uni-directional E-glass reinforcement and Core-Cell linear polyurethane foam core bonded with epoxy resin" in the fall of 2002.

I think the Tartans are very appealing in a lot of ways. They do have some great features - ie: carbon fiber spars etc., and the boats seem to be very well made.

My problem with the company now would be their inability to defend the brand. For whatever reason they are not addressing customer service issues in a visible way (and it isn't just on Sailnet) The reason may go pack to paragraph 1, and that would concern me as a buyer. I have owned 2 Tartan sailboats in the past but wouldn't buy one now.

Tartan apparently has other problems that are aggravating them. >>EEOC sues Fairport yacht builder<<
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Old 10-17-2007
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lawsuits

The lawsuit refered to in the last post should not be much of a consideration. Although it is a problem for Tartan to deal with.
many companies with alot of employees experience these types of
lawsuits. Many are from disgruntled employees looking for a quick
buck. The lawsuit would have no influence on how well their boats are
made.
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Old 10-18-2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tartan34C View Post
It was my understandings that the problem was related to changing to an epoxy laminate so older boats, pre 2000 at least, are not affected. All things considered this is good because I have an older Tartan.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
Robert,

how do you know it was an epoxy laminate issue? Apart from Luckyjim trying to save us from buying tartan/C&C and claiming he has all the answers but refusing to tell us until his alleged saildrive suit against yanmar and novis is over or he is broke, everything on the internet about this one boat is nothing but hearsay. So one epoxy hull (not the 7 year old early model c&c121 with the known gelcoat problem) in say 500-600 hulls develops a structural crack, the company fixes it to the owners satisfaction, and the only banter out there is about overtight rigs, a lifting strap too far forward, layup issue, deck tie down strap too loose, amine blush, supervisor at lunch with new employee, no resin infused in that area (which is impossible because only the deck is resin infused), company going bankrupt, liners and bulkheads not fitting tight to new thinner laminant in old mold (you don't want them to fit tight because they develop hard spots) , it was Mr. Jacketts lack of experience and credibility, and my favorite they are covering up a major design defect to keep the company solvent. How ridiculous. Does anybody really think any employee or executive at the company would cover up an issue that could cause loss of life and result in said executive or employee on trial for the death. Looks like the 59 year old disgruntled employee who worked for novis for less than one year, was fired, and then filed a discrimination lawsuit started after the one tartan problem so we know it wasn't him. Good information there.

Has anyone thought that despite the defect or abuse the hull took, amazingly the epoxy hull was so strong that it kept the hull intact to get it towed to shore. Had it not been epoxy would it be at the bottom right now?

Epoxy and carbon are the future. It's not without it it's problems. Boeing just had another setback on the dreamliner. Boeing will get over it. Kind of amazing that Novis and Boeing are both working the same technology.

There are hundreds of satisfied novis customers and there is good value for the money. Being in a growth state is not without it's problems and it will all work out - they have acknowledged issues and started improving customer service. It isn't perfect and the dealers need to step up and support the customers.

There are two disgruntled people who purchased novis products. Both have foolishly continued to post negatively about Novis under different names and different sites during their alleged suits. They were banned from their own owners group because nobody cares or is concerned what they have to say and are quite tired of the nonsense and repetitive posts. Go do your lawsuit, learn your lesson.

If you are interested in a used product or even a new one, why come to a site where you really don't know who is posting what and why? Take the information with a grain of salt. Most people don't even use their real names. Why not call brokers, dealers, talk to owners, call Tartan and ask them. Ask Tim Jackett - he'll tell you straight up. That's right, the ceo and master designer, 35 or so years at the company, is available should you need him. Try that at Ford.

Go sailing, have fun. Buy epoxy - it's better. stop the slander and hearsay - it's not good for anyone.

Chilli.
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Old 10-18-2007
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Chilli,
The question I responded to was in what model years were the problems described an issue. The change to epoxy and the problems with the structure happened around the same time so I would say any year that predates the change to epoxy is a safe bet. I donít know the laminate schedule or even what building technique was used so I am not saying anything about epoxy and the cause or effect in this situation. But I am putting a date to the problem.

The rest of your post is just an emotional response which adds fuel to the fire without adding any new information or facts. And of course thatís fine and one of the reasons people post to a forum is that they have something to say and can only say it within the limits of their own experience and knowledge. And by the way just because a person reports a problem publicly donít assume that only one person has the problem.

You also caution us about the lack of background available to us as far as who is who on this forum. You point out some people donít have a real name or identity associated with their online persona. You for example just joined and have made two posts. You have no name or background information available on your profile. I on the other hand use my real name and clearly state that I am in the marine business and have been for over thirty years. I am a practicing small craft designer employed to design and build small boats and teach boatbuilding and maritime history. Who are you? What is your background? What is your information or contribution worth? I am not asking in a negative way but just trying to see how you fit into things because with only two posts itís hard to gauge your skill level or background.

You end by saying,
ďGo sailing, have fun. Buy epoxy - it's better. stop the slander and hearsay - it's not good for anyone.Ē

Thanks for the advice but I will buy what I decide is best for both my style of sailing and budget. Lots of materials are available ranging all the way from wood to metal to composites and each has its advantages and disadvantages. Epoxy is not the end of the line but itís just another step in the evolution of design and construction and itís not suitable for everyone and never will be. But your use of the words slander and hearsay concern me. I hope you arenít implying that I have said or done something inappropriate or dishonest? I think I understand the definition of both words and unless you can point something out that I have forgotten writing I donít think I have been guilty of either slander or using hearsay to support any position I have taken. My opinions are formed by what I see, hear and read and are supported when necessary by personal experience and quoting the relevant source material. And I try to be very careful and note the difference between my opinion and what I consider facts or common knowledge. This is your second post and it sounds to me like you are accusing me of something. I apologize if I misunderstand you but because you have only two posts so far I donít see where youíre coming from yet.
All the best,
Robert Gainer
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Donít waste time making the same old mistakes but instead make new ones and to insure your place in history be sure the mistakes are big ones.

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Dear Chili,

I am the owner of C&C 121 # 28 Prelude.

You made some factually incorrect statements in your post below.

Hopefully this will help you.

My boat was manufactured (the hull and deck were joined and it left the factory as new) in January 2002. She is a 2002 model so she is not 7 years old as you state. As she is hull# 28 of a run reported to be 45 boats all told, she is not an "early" model as you state.

She also has many more serious issues than "gelcoat cracks" as you stated. You seem to have done some reading before you posted and perhaps you missed all the problems we have had and continue to have with the boat. Those have been clearly documented.

Our boat has had "more issues" than any other the company has produced, according to the current warranty manager there.

There are more than two owners in litigation with the company at this time. A search of the public records will let anyone know how many and what each lawsuit concerns.

Others have posted additional lawsuit information concerning the company and it's employees, suppliers, dealers and other related parties.

Yes, we are one of the owners who have had to sue the company. This was done only after the company refused warranty repairs, reneged on their written agreement to replace our boat using a trade in of the current one, refused to deal with Boat US Consumer Protection Group ( a third party mediation service available to it's 650,000 members) and finally, refused to answer our final demand letter. We did everything possible to avoid the lawsuit.

We wish the company, it's owners, employees, and other related parties all the best and hope for their continued success and prosperity.

What would you, or anyone else, have done differently?

John M. Vito









Robert,

how do you know it was an epoxy laminate issue? Apart from Luckyjim trying to save us from buying tartan/C&C and claiming he has all the answers but refusing to tell us until his alleged saildrive suit against yanmar and novis is over or he is broke, everything on the internet about this one boat is nothing but hearsay. So one epoxy hull (not the 7 year old early model c&c121 with the known gelcoat problem) in say 500-600 hulls develops a structural crack, the company fixes it to the owners satisfaction, and the only banter out there is about overtight rigs, a lifting strap too far forward, layup issue, deck tie down strap too loose, amine blush, supervisor at lunch with new employee, no resin infused in that area (which is impossible because only the deck is resin infused), company going bankrupt, liners and bulkheads not fitting tight to new thinner laminant in old mold (you don't want them to fit tight because they develop hard spots) , it was Mr. Jacketts lack of experience and credibility, and my favorite they are covering up a major design defect to keep the company solvent. How ridiculous. Does anybody really think any employee or executive at the company would cover up an issue that could cause loss of life and result in said executive or employee on trial for the death. Looks like the 59 year old disgruntled employee who worked for novis for less than one year, was fired, and then filed a discrimination lawsuit started after the one tartan problem so we know it wasn't him. Good information there.

Has anyone thought that despite the defect or abuse the hull took, amazingly the epoxy hull was so strong that it kept the hull intact to get it towed to shore. Had it not been epoxy would it be at the bottom right now?

Epoxy and carbon are the future. It's not without it it's problems. Boeing just had another setback on the dreamliner. Boeing will get over it. Kind of amazing that Novis and Boeing are both working the same technology.

There are hundreds of satisfied novis customers and there is good value for the money. Being in a growth state is not without it's problems and it will all work out - they have acknowledged issues and started improving customer service. It isn't perfect and the dealers need to step up and support the customers.

There are two disgruntled people who purchased novis products. Both have foolishly continued to post negatively about Novis under different names and different sites during their alleged suits. They were banned from their own owners group because nobody cares or is concerned what they have to say and are quite tired of the nonsense and repetitive posts. Go do your lawsuit, learn your lesson.

If you are interested in a used product or even a new one, why come to a site where you really don't know who is posting what and why? Take the information with a grain of salt. Most people don't even use their real names. Why not call brokers, dealers, talk to owners, call Tartan and ask them. Ask Tim Jackett - he'll tell you straight up. That's right, the ceo and master designer, 35 or so years at the company, is available should you need him. Try that at Ford.

Go sailing, have fun. Buy epoxy - it's better. stop the slander and hearsay - it's not good for anyone.

Chilli.[/QUOTE]
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  #10  
Old 10-18-2007
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Now we're just wasting cyber space with rewritten text...do a search for Christ sakes! Or you can PM Camaraderie, he seems to be the gatekeeper of all Tartan/C&C Issues
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