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Which are the crap yachts

24K views 88 replies 42 participants last post by  saildork 
#1 ·
Hi everybody
we, like lots of others are coming to the US to , hopefully, buy a boat to sail back to australia. I know about oz custums tax, GST, PLUS the ridiculous quarrantine issues which must be navigated to import a yacht. Now it seems every yachty is quick to say this is good, i love my boat, so what i am after is which are bad, and why? And is it dangerous to take a x-charter beneteau 411 or jeaneau40 across the pacific and why? been looking at tayana 42, 39 fast passage, corbin 39, to name a few, though these are '80s and i can get 2000 chartererers for same if not cheaper.
Any way who has owned a crap boat
 
#3 ·
Let's get a little more specific about what exactly you are looking for in a boat. I'm sure you do not want an expository on every lousy boat ever built. There is quite a bit of knowledge available here but no one wants to type for two hours trying to guess what you're looking for.

You've read through the boat reviews here from the members?

Charter boats are looked on with suspicion much like used rental cars. The consensus seems to be that they get used and abused. I'm not sure that rules one out, but it does make sense to look at one with a more jaundiced eye.

The only other consensus I've seen here is that Catalina's are glorified BB-Q stands, the Portugese invented the ultimate yacht around 1898 and the design is unchanged to this day, and no one has ever bought a MacGregor.
 
#71 ·
I wasent even around

for this one...LOL...Sway... you are truly very funny some times..:)

The only other consensus I've seen here is that Catalina's are glorified BB-Q stands, the Portugese invented the ultimate yacht around 1898 and the design is unchanged to this day, and no one has ever bought a MacGregor.
 
#4 ·
i am after a 40ish' yacht that will safely handle a pacific crossing. A lot of chaterer are shoal draft and would prefer a stiffer (stiffest) hull that is predictable surfing down large swells, strong enuf to take the pounding, rigged approriately. Also not much tankage on charter boats. Cut to the chase, the fast passage 39?, any thoughts.i know francis stokes sailed one around. AND has any one here bought x charter and taken them across nasty seas?I have read previous logs but thanks for advice. This is a great forum. hmmmmmmmmmmm friend has a catalina 387 which the wife loved, can't wait to tell her.
 
#5 ·
I would recommend you look at boats in the Caribbean - they are much cheaper there than in the USA and the selection of ex-charter boats that must be sold (particularly when the new boats arrive) is very good. You also have an easier sail towards the Panama canal.
Many of the charter boats are sailed to their destinations from France. That includes those SunSail/Moorings etc. hulls in Tahiti and the Whitsundays so - quod erat demonstrandum - they can make it.

I bought an ex-charter boat in the Caribbean. So far only some storms in the leewards and windwards but soon I'll be going through the canal and will be in Sydney sometime in February. I just talked with a marina up by Pittwater in order to reserve some dock space upon my arrival.
 
#6 ·
Sailaway 21:
Your comment is too funny!:
"The only other consensus I've seen here is that Catalina's are glorified BB-Q stands, the Portugese invented the ultimate yacht around 1898 and the design is unchanged to this day, and no one has ever bought a MacGregor."
I got a good chuckle out of that! Well said, indeed.
__________________
 
#7 · (Edited)
Thanx Zanshin. We are starting in BVI. What did you buy and any chance you can keep me posted on how you go with Oz custums and Quarantine. wife thinks production boats are unstable in big seas, and flimsy. I mean if a tayana hit something it would bounce off, if jeanneau hit a turtle, it sinks. (bit of an extreme analogy) so please keep me posted, and sailaway i dont understand the portugese pun?
 
#8 ·
.....I dont understand the portugese pun?
Stick around on Sailnet and you soon will!

If you're shopping in the boat range and budget range you suggest, I'm not so sure there are a lot of "crap" boats... Which ever boat you look at needs to be looked at hard and carefully regardless of "brand".... for example I recently looked over a Swan that was definitely "crap".
 
#9 ·
Ok maybe i should rename or start another thread, but it seems every boat you look at, people who own them now say "l love mymacgregor" and you only have check the reviews here, that the boat any member owns now is this best, yet there are thousands. I know i guess it is like cars and "what is my purpose in life?" Just funny no one has owned a bad boat, though ive been on a few, and one was a roberts 25 which had no traveller the tiller vibrated horribly and the owner sitting there say "beautiful isn't she" Looked good, sailed S@#T
 
#10 ·
I bought a 2003 Jeanneau 43DS. Well equipped with in-mast furling, genset, A/C {which I don't use} and I'm adding the radar / watermaker / windgen in St. Maarten. The boat was the largest I felt comfortable with single-handing; but there were some great deals to be had on the Bendytoe 473's and also the really big 50/52/54s coming out of charter. But who in their right mind wants 5 midget-sized heads?

I'm not going to stay in Oz with the boat and have already talked with the customs people here - they want a 15% of the boat's local value (almost double the BVI price) placed in bond. I've talked with a dealer here who says I could probably get away with not having to post the bond.

A good surveyor will tell you the shortcomings for blue water cruising and also the costs of remedying any design deficiencies. There are also a couple of good bluewater boats available in the BVI that might fit your budget or expectation and I can recommend Todd Duff at BVI Yacht Sales who is a liveaboard and blue water sailor to steer you in the right direction. No, I didn't buy my boat through him but should have.

I personally think that with a crusing speed of 8 knots, a flexible schedule, and modern weather reporting systems you will be able to avoid the really big storms.
 
#12 ·
Something to bear in mind, purchasing a boat is not just a practical decision, but an emotional one as well. While Boat X may be perfect for what you want, it also may be butt ugly to you. It can be difficult, to say the least, to spend the requisite funds on a boat you don't like looking at.

Or, it may be the perfect boat, when you look at it at the dock, but have flaws once under weigh. And as always, there is the cliche of "One man's junk, is another man's treasure."

Great deals are usually only found by accident, and those accidents usually only happen if you're out looking. Not at any specific "non-crap" boat, but anything available.
 
#13 ·
I can't offer any advice about the x-charterboats. Zanshin seems to know a fair bit about it, but I would also direct you to an earlier post he made about a problem he had with his ex-charter boat (which may or may not have had any connection to its charter history): http://www.sailnet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30539&highlight=lost+rudder (see post #14 for details)

However, I can toss out a few other models that are similar in design and size to the double-ender/canoe sterns you listed:

-Valiant 40/42
-Pacific Seacraft 37
-Pacific Seacraft 40
-Southern Cross 39
-Slocum 43
-Alajuela 38
-Ingrid 38
-Westsail 42
-Westsail 43

I've always liked that Corbin 39. It comes in aft and centercockpit versions. Good luck to you.
 
#14 ·
You are looking for specific attributes that aren't likely to be found in the charter fleet, in my opinion, because those boats exist to serve drinks and food in pretty locales, not to make passage.

There was an Aussie delivery skipper here a few months back who seemed to know his stuff...he took something in the 45' range out of San Diego, I think, and half his gear broke...can't remember his name.

Anyway, here's a tip: A lot of people spend years getting decent passagemakers fully equipped and then they hit their first patch of crappy weather, start fighting and decide that they hate sailing. Frequently, this happens in Panama or the Western Caribbean. Consequently, you can find extensively equipped (sometimes overly so), priced-to-move "expedition boats" bobbing on moorings just in front of the Canal, abandoned by people who didn't take into account the human element of long-term cruising before they spent $250,000 on a boat that could circumnavigate. There are also a lot of people who try to "save their marriages" via cruising, only to learn that if you don't like your spouse on land, you'll HATE them with bilges full of vomit in a Force 9 off some tropical reef...

So I would get a type "cruiser" and a length range "38-45 feet" and a place "Central America" into Yachtworld.com and start reading. If you use brokers, owner contacts and third-party research (go to various cruiser forums and say "Does Boat Model X, year Y, have known bad habits for the purposes of passagemaking and an eventual life off the Great Barrier Reef?", you will soon narrow things down to a few choices.

Then you can spend a week in Panama visiting boats. I've seen some great bargains (that may have been junk, but you have to do your homework), and had I not found our passagemaker literally without bicycling distance, a trip to Panama to see half a dozen prospects was very much something I was considering...because purchasing someone else's failed dream may seem ruthless, but it's an excellent way to lower one's own costs.

I just recalled that the Sea of Cortez in northwest Mexico is also a good place to find "dead dream" boats.
 
#15 ·
Having never owned a Mac, nor known anyone who owned one, I can only speculate as to why people love them, but I'd guess it has something to do with the way it's used. When the owner tires of "sailing", or bad weather looms, they can crank up and zip back to the dock. Don't get me wrong. If that's where you live, good on ya! It's just not in the same class as what I would consider a true sailboat.
 
#16 ·
Obviously avoid Hunter, Catalina and Beneteau for anything other than a planter in front of a restaurant. Another approach might be to shop for a designer. Perry designed boats always seem to be built well . Brewer, and crealock also come to mind. I always prefer a boat with a single designer rather than one from a design "team' (committee)
 
#22 · (Edited by Moderator)
Excuse me, a planter in front of a resturant? Bull xxxx.

If you want to tell the original poster why they are not intended for Long Range Cruising; fine. But there are plenty of us that use our boats for there intended purpose, which in my case is costal cruising.
Why does this crap happen everytime?
IF you purchase a boat with the intentions of using it in the way IT WAS DESIGNED to be used, than you will be a very happy boat owner. Buy a Bending to sail across the Pacific and your not going to be happy, but to say that you should plant flowers in them is crap.
 
#17 ·
Hey thanks every one, been looking for two years but mainly at x charter, the realised they are light shoal draft, consequently low on stability. Then there is the rig?? have been on race boat (X sydney-hobart) and the helmsman put the sail, plus half the crew in the drink! Wife is now convinced that these production boats lay down at sthe first puff. I think i'll start another thread, but has any 1 heard of bene, jene catalinas capsizing?? Thanks for your sage advice, I do like the fast passage though.
 
#18 ·
If you fancy stuff like the Bass Strait, the "Bene, Jene, Catalina" production boats (sometimes called "Bendytoys") aren't for you. I would say that Australia and South Africa are similar in that the band of "coastal" sailing is rather narrow, and has the potential to turn "bluewater" far too quickly for the light-air, "casual" sailing that's dominant in North America.

There's nothing wrong with these boats, and they make a lot of people happy, and, properly run, they can do oceanic work. But many, many models are not appropriate for such work, and every year we read of U.S./French production boats going to pieces in the Transpac or the Newport race. It's not worth it if you know you are looking at regular instances of 40-50 knot gales. Charter boats are too fluffy for that, and there are better choices from more selective builders.
 
#36 ·
Val,
I hear where what you are saying but reality is most of the popular production boats are more than capable of handling Australian conditions with the proviso of keeping an eye on the weather.
Bass Strait's horrendous reputation is largely based on the Sydney - Hobart race. Now don't get me wrong, the Strait can be nasty and can turn on you in quite unexpected ways but most of the time a well founded Benetteau type would be able to handle the conditions PROVIDED they are not racing or on a tight schedule. That holds true for all of the east coast of NSW down to Tasmania. The B may not be yours or my first choice but they are capable. They'd pound like buggery but most modern cruiser-racers do. While not wishing to recommend them Bs actually have performed quite creditably in the Syd-Hob. Every now and then the NSW coast goes completely feral and no sane person would be out there no matter how well founded your craft but those severe depressions tend to give plenty of warning of their eta. The one place you do not want to be is to the west of Tasmania cos there ain't much chance to run and hide . The last mate of mine to cross the strait did so in early winter wearing mainly shorts and t-shirts. They simply sat in the port of Eden (southern NSW) and waited for the right window.
Personally I think that the best argument for a heavily built cruising boat is as much about comfort at sea as it is about overall strength. Plenty of Bavaris, Benees, Duffers and the like are out cruising the South Pacific and I know of at least one Oz skipper who brought a Hunter back from the US with no major problems.
Only thing I would stress is that Californian boats tend to be somewhat lightly rigged compared to their Oz cousins. If I was buying in California I'd want to factor in all new standing rigging.
Sorry, this rant kind of got out of hand and a tad off topic. Really all I was trying to emphasise is the difference between cruising with no fixed timetable and racing.
Cheers mate
 
#19 ·
One suggestion would be to find the yard which maintains the charter fleets, bring a few beers, and have a chat with them after quitting time. I spent a winter in a Sunsail yard and got some eye-opening info about the newer charter boats. Some manufacturers have started glueing the grids into the hulls with polyurethane, rather than glassing them down. The yard was trying to fix one of those boats which had hit a rock and broken the glue joint. They had to strip the entire interior and glass the grid back in. They also got a fax that the forestays were pulling out of the Cyclades--latest and cheapest line of Beneteaus. They checked one and sure enough, the stem fitting was pulling out of a very light layup. That was the year that the Bavarias were out of the water having their keel supports strengthened.

Having said all that, I have taken a Bendytoy (First 456) around the world without problems. If you see more than 40 knots between the Caribbean and OZ, you are either damned unlucky or aren't watching the weather.
 
#20 ·
Having said all that, I have taken a Bendytoy (First 456) around the world without problems. If you see more than 40 knots between the Caribbean and OZ, you are either damned unlucky or aren't watching the weather.
That's a big Bendytoy, and the Firsts were built a little better in my opinion than the current models.

I think you may have more experience or better judgement than most if you did a circ. without incident, but a 45 1/2 footer is inherently going to be a stronger boat than something in the high 30s, even in the production boat style.

All things being equal, I would rather (if short-handed like most cruisers) have something beefier, if only for the reason that 1) I'm not likely to be in a rush, and 2) a beefier hull can take a couple more shots on a reef before failing, buying me time to either solve my problem or safely get off the boat.
 
#23 ·
I agree. Slagging the Bendytoys/Catalinas, etc. for not being anything except exactly what their owners want is ridiculous. Very, very few sailors do anything but fair-weather coastal sailing, and the emphasis is always going to be on convenience, spaciousness and rapid, windward sailing. The boat designs that emphasize safety, endurance and durability in the face of big seas (which they in turn may rarely see even in the open ocean) are frequently narrow, snug and deep...by design (less distance to fall, more interior devoted to stowage/systems).

It's a stupid and unproductive argument. Catalinas are the most popular boats in the world because they have the best combination of features that suit the intentions of the largest number of sailors. I'm not one of those sailors, but even I realize that I've got the wrong boat for Lake Ontario even as I believe it's the right boat for a Marquesas run.

The only problem is when people think coastal boats are adequate for blue water, but that's not a design issue...it's an ignorance issue. You don't take a Camry off-roading, but that doesn't mean it's a crappy car. It's an exceptionally good car...if you don't drive off-road!
 
#24 ·
I could not agree with you more, sailortjk1. Yacht designers don't design yachts that nobody wants. They design boats that they believe have a market. MacGregor designed the 26X for people who want to get to their destination quickly, sail around a bit, and then go home. Those buyers aren't sailing purists. They'd rather motor than drift. They don't care about racing. They don't need a boat that can stand up to a gale and big seas, because they'll never sail it in a gale or big seas. It serves their needs, and they're perfectly happy with it. When people demean those boats or their owners, it reveals more about the critics than it does about the boats. The critic reveals his own blind spots - his biases. He can't see the value that others see in the boats.

I've crewed on J's and Etchells and Catalina's and Beneteaus and Hunters and Pearsons and C&Cs and S2's and a variety of other racing and cruising boats, and have had as much fun sailing and racing Beneteaus as Js. I've seen well-sailed MacGregors beat more highly-regarded boats, and I've seen well-sailed Catalinas humiliate similarly sized Js, scratch.

Many boats that are designed to sail and race around lakes and bays have no business going to sea, and many boats that are designed to go to sea can't sail anywhere other than in trade winds. Neither type of boat is what I would call a "crap boat." They are what they are. The former would be no good at sea, and the latter would be no good racing around the buoys. A few boats can do both fairly well, but that doesn't mean that all other boats are "crap boats."

If a young family can afford to learn to sail and race on an inland lake in a MacGregor or a Hunter, it doesn't reflect well on others to demean their choice.
 
#25 ·
I think that these last three posts have said it all. Every boat to it's use.

Maybe the original question should have been stated something like.....

What boats/models/years might be know for problems I should be on the lookout for?

It seems every maker has a model, or set of model years that have an inherent problem or two.

I have a great respect for Tayanas; but didn't they have a year or two when they tried an experimental epoxy or lamination that turned out disastrous? Maybe it was another maker, but you get my point.

I know there are way too many examples of this to cover all of the possibilities; but there seem to be some that come up with fair regularity, adn it would be a much more productive conversation than "Yacht XYZ is a bunch of CRAP!!!!!"

More useful would be, "If looking at Yacht ABC, watch for ##$$#, because in the mid -90's they did this or that...."

I agree with the slamming of Catalinas, Hunters, etc; it's just ridiculous. If Catalinas were so bad, why are so many from then70's and 80's still sailing with happy owners. Simple answer; they answer a need; and for people with that specific need, they are the best answer.

My 2 cents worth and "you get what you pay for"...(meaning my opinion, not referring to boats)......

Fred
 
#26 ·
I think that these last three posts have said it all. Every boat to it's use.

Maybe the original question should have been stated something like.....

What boats/models/years might be know for problems I should be on the lookout for?

It seems every maker has a model, or set of model years that have an inherent problem or two.

I have a great respect for Tayanas; but didn't they have a year or two when they tried an experimental epoxy or lamination that turned out disastrous? Maybe it was another maker, but you get my point.

I know there are way too many examples of this to cover all of the possibilities; but there seem to be some that come up with fair regularity, adn it would be a much more productive conversation than "Yacht XYZ is a bunch of CRAP!!!!!"

More useful would be, "If looking at Yacht ABC, watch for ##$$#, because in the mid -90's they did this or that...."

I agree with the slamming of Catalinas, Hunters, etc; it's just ridiculous. If Catalinas were so bad, why are so many from then70's and 80's still sailing with happy owners. Simple answer; they answer a need; and for people with that specific need, they are the best answer.

My 2 cents worth and "you get what you pay for"...(meaning my opinion, not referring to boats)......

Fred
I think the original post was fine; the problem arose when a few folks decided to engage in something that's fairly common on Sailnet--bashing of production boats. I really don't understand it---if they have such great boats themselves then they should be thankful/happy/content. The need to belittle others is a pathology.
 
#27 ·
Hmmmm, I agree about the first post. Mainly I think the thread title contributed to the tone of the conversation. Some things are like cheese to rats, as it were.

I don't get the bashing others stuff either; never have. There are some people who make it their life's work, though.

Personally I think its a problem of teeny weenies.:D

Fred :cool:
 
#30 ·
Hmmmm, I agree about the first post. Mainly I think the thread title contributed to the tone of the conversation. Some things are like cheese to rats, as it were.

I don't get the bashing others stuff either; never have. There are some people who make it their life's work, though.

Personally I think its a problem of teeny weenies.:D

Fred :cool:
Good point, Fred. The word "crap" kind of did point the way, didn't it?
 
#31 ·
Yes boys i cast the bait and got some bites. One mans wine is another's poison. I get the picture now though, this is a great forum. I've been on catalina 387 and it is fabulous, even if the Farr 1104 slides past every saturday. But i understand, not much tankage less storage area than cruiser types. and i think i would want a cutter rig on long trips too, But if i coastal sailed alwys , i would get one. I dont think there are crap boats, just yachties making crap decisions with what they think their boat can do, or was made for. lets end it on that. I start a new thread, any one sailed a fast passage 39
 
#32 · (Edited)
It’s all sport, if you ride a Honda, Suzuki are crap, it’s the same with boats. If you try defending a Catalina/Hunter/Bendy you may get one or two backers but a majority will jump in and bag the them all, it’s easier.
Any boat can and will cross oceans it’s a matter of preparation, I would quite happily take, say a Catalina 36 across the Pacific, east to west staying between 10' N and 20' S at the right time of the year. I would not want to sail in the other direction, the boat might take it, but I recon it would break me.

EDIT: In the end you buy what you like and what you can afford and make the most of it.
 
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