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Why do production boats appear to show more wear over time than high-end boats?

  • Design Quality?

    Votes: 7 11.9%
  • The Typical Purcahser?

    Votes: 23 39.0%
  • Capital on hand to invest into the boat?

    Votes: 5 8.5%
  • None of the above?

    Votes: 2 3.4%
  • All of the above?

    Votes: 23 39.0%

The demise of production boats

8K views 52 replies 21 participants last post by  SimonV 
#1 ·
I had an intersting observation over the weekend as I shopped for baots. There are excpetions to every rule, but this is worth consideration:

I have found that, in general (with general underlined, there are exceptions), the higher end boats (Hylas, Valiant, Pacific Seacraft) seemed to have aged better than the typical production boat.

Why?

Is it:

1) Design quality? Does abuse become more apparent on production boats?

2) Purchaser? Is the typical purcahser of production boat more of a newbie and not familiar with the work involved in a boat? Are they not aware of ABYC basics, like wire nuts, soldering, basic maintenance? Thus, the boats deteriorate at a higher rate than high-end boats?

3) Capital? Do the Hylas/Mason's of the world hold together better because the typical purchaser has more capital by which to maintain the boat?

4) None of the above?

5) All of the above?
 
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#2 ·
Now that I have posted this, I will say that is my opinion that most of the demise is due to the purcahser.

I personally feel most of the purchasers of the production boats veer away from high end boats because they do not see the quality in them or need to spend that much more money for a similair sized boat. Let's face it: production boats in general are more comfortable, almost always cheaper, and typically larger down below.

THus, they buy a boat not realizing the immense expense in time and capital to maintain the boat and the boat suffers.

How many people buy a Hylas as a first boat? My bet is not many/if any. They already know what they want out of a boat from previous ownership, are avid sailors, and realize what it takes to keep the boat up.

There are exceptions to the rule as any boat can be junked up, but I blame the owners/buyers.

- CD
 
#6 · (Edited)
CD - I agree with your choice regarding the purchaser and that is what I voted for but I disagree slight with the following:

I personally feel most of the purchasers of the production boats veer away from high end boats because they do not see the quality in them or need to spend that much more money for a similair sized boat. Let's face it: production boats in general are more comfortable, almost always cheaper, and typically larger down below.

- CD
I think many folks do in fact appreciate the quality of high-end boats and would certainly purchase one if they could but they can't because of the cost. My C-350 was my second boat, not my first. I could have waited another 10 years or more to buy a better boat, but that's 10 years of sailing at least once a week during the season I would not have enjoyed. I also needed to take into account my wife's interests.
 
#3 ·
This is a thread that will come up with a lot of posters, so I will writte as soon as I have time. Meetings all day.

But I think briefly, bad quality, low grade materials etc. make it cheap, accessible to all, cheap also means you don't care, buy another one...high end boats have better mateirals and are looked after people for what they spent on them...

A Rolls Royce will allways be a Rolls Royce, a Cehvy Cavalier will allways be a piece of crap...
 
#4 ·
I voted Design and Quality for obvious reasons. An analogy can be made with land-based buildings as well.

Which structures have survived to reach the pretigious status of being on the US Register of Historic Places? Buildings which were well designed, built using a high degree of skill and craft and constructed of the finest materials available.

It doesn't take an architect to have enough perception in knowing that production-built track houses and mobile homes will not be worthy of preservation in the future - regardless of the amount of effort and money the owners invest in maintaining them.
 
#5 ·
CD,
I totally agree with you that it is the purchaser. If the same guy bought a Hylas it would look the same in a few years. I see a lot of different boats and owners. I see charter boats that the owner uses and say they left it clean. It may be clean by their standards, but if the charter company did not step in and clean it again, the boat would not be fit for charterers. Personally, I would be ashamed to turn the boat over to someone else in the condition I see some of them.

The same thing happens in the second home market. People buy the lake home, have a great time all summer, and then leave it for the winter. When they return in the spring they wonder why it smells and has mold. It has something to do with maintenance.

Whether boats, homes, cars, if you don't anticipate the maintenance or pay to have it maintained, it becomes a costly problem for you or the next owner. Most new boat owners do not anticipate the work involved in maintenance of the asset. Some just don't care.
 
#7 ·
Mass-produced goods are built to a price-point. The market over the last few decades has pushed towards low-priced dockominiums which are long on space but short on performance and/or build quality; what we see on the market now is the first or second wave of these boats hitting the brokers.

There's a very limited market for high end boats these days. Most American-built boats are higher priced because of labor costs for what are essentially - even in a production environment - hand-built boats. The more successful builders have either taken production offshore, or have gone to more automated production methods like Bavaria and Hanse. Even the Taiwanese yards have moved production to other locations due to rising labor costs.

The number of junk boats in brokerage (IMO) is a result of owners who either were new to sailing/boating and had no idea of maintenance costs, or perhaps they just aged to the point where going down to the yard every weekend and sanding/painting/rebedding hardware got to be too much of a chore.
 
#8 ·
Certainly a case can be made for "All Of The Above"

Here's what I see as playing into it.

First, the owners. Like someone said, the PB's tend to appear to be a greater value. And to whom do they appear that way? Those with less maritime experience; less knowledegable about proper care & maintenence; more casual about the whole boat ownership experience, etc. etc.

Then factor in what Giu was saying. Poor workmanship, materials, fit & finish, etc.

Now, combine the two. Poor material quality will have a proportionally greater reaction to poor maintenance.

The owner in our first scenario could probably destroy an HR or Valiant; but it would take longer.

A more experienced and consientious owner will probably get 3X the life out of the cheapest of production boats, simply through love and care.

There are a lot of VW Beetles from the sixties running around, and it's probably not a coincidence that they look pristine. The ones owned by the careless and loveless succumbed to neglect long ago. It's sort of Darwinian, with the fittest owner's equipment surviving.
 
#9 ·
Alex,

I think your argument about the Rolls or the Cavalier is more elitiest than it is reality. While I agree that a Rolls or a Bentley is a beautiful machine, it is that the owners of those machines can usually afford to have them maintained, both for pride of ownership and maintaining investment value. If they were not maintained as they should be, like anything else, they deteriorate and are much more expensive to fix. There is nothing uglier than a beat up high end car like a Porshe, Bentley, etc. You feel the cars pain.

Although I don't have any desire to own and drive a Cavalier, I saw a 10 year old Cavalier with 220,000 miles on it last week that looked almost new. I think the owner obviously must take good care of his piece of crap. If he owned the Rolls it would be maintained to the same standard.
 
#10 ·
Given that those "production boats" that show well in market, or appear to have aged well are those that have had meticulous owners, I have to go with purchasers being the overriding factor.

People who have invested heavily into the high end boats should be motiviated to keep them in good shape, and will likely have the means to make it happen even if they are not inclined to do the work themselves.

But the meticulous average joe (I know, a bit of an oxymoron there) who loves his pride and joy may well keep any boat in great condition.

But that is just one factor among many, including original quality and workmanship of course.
 
#11 ·
Interesting points of view regarding this poll. Consider how cheap materials age, such as GRP with thin gelcoating, inferior metals, overuse of UV degradable synthetics, plastic laminates and melamine MDF sheet stock for interiors, cheezy balsa cored hulls, crappy mechanical/electrical systems. This stuff simply does not age well.

For maintaining my budget, I had a choice when purchasing my last boat. Buy an older, quality-built vessel, with the finest craftsmanship, durability, heritage and use of materials. Or, I could have bought a new low-end production boat.

I knew which boat would have timeless appeal and durability. Also, by envisioning what the low-end boat would be listed for in a few years, compared to the quality boat, which has actually appreciated in value, a retroactive result is a deeper sense of owner pride.
 
#13 ·
Mostly it's the owners. If you spend 1/2 mil or more on a boat you probably have a professional take care of the boat for you. The work will generally be top notch and things probably won't get neglected.

Production boat buyers will generally wax their own boats, might even change their own oil. I have looked at production boats that are in pristine condition but they are few and far between.
 
#14 ·
I don't think you can discount "capital on hand to invest in the boat" as a reason. Reversal of fortune happens all the time, and when it does, the first thing that's going to suffer is the boat, a niche luxury item that doesn't sell very often and that takes a great deal of time and money just to maintain. Add to this the fact that slip space is so expensive these days, and presto, some poor bastard who just lost his job is pay $300 a month just to store a boat he can't sell. He's stuck. The last thing on his mind is cleaning up the interior of the boat, because he knows that what's really wrong with it is under the waterline. Now he's spending his days smoking pot and drinking Coors and turning tricks behind the local A&P just to make the slip payment but he's so disgusted with himself for what he did with for the pervert/marina owner behind the A&P for a free month of rent that he has to drink more Coors and smoke more pot. So it becomes this vicious cycle.
 
#17 ·
I agree, mostly the purchaser.

Lets not forget the group of people with limited to no sailing experience that decide to buy a boat and cruise for two or three years. They beat the boat up and then dump it on the market. Go take a look at a Morgan Out Island at your local broker.
 
#19 ·
I agree with most of the posts above, i.e., it's a combination of OWNER and QUALITY. Perhaps it's not a 50-50 split, though. As was said, a negligent and clueless owner could trash a Hinkley or a Valiant or a Pacific Seacraft, but it would take longer than, e.g., a Hunter or Bendytoy or your production-boat-of-the-month.

I also believe that boat condition is not always a function of clueless or pennyless owners. I know personally of a beautiful older first-class yacht which has a wonderful pedigree and a very knowledgeable, experienced, well-heeled owner. He hasn't cruised or maintained this boat in the 20+ years I've known him. He is an excellent sailor, a very bright and technically proficient guy, and yet..... simply inexplicable.

Mainly, though, I have to agree with CD. Once the typical new boater shells out the $200 to $300K or so for a new production boat, he doesn't understand that he's gotta actually spend TIME and MONEY maintaining it. And, he's very likely not prepared for the 10-15% of boat value for top-quality maintenance EACH YEAR on average. Result: the boat deteriorates more and more each year 'til by the time the loan is half paid it's a constructive wreck.

Bill
 
#20 ·
It's pretty difficult to differentiate between well-maintained production boat, some of which can cost or exceed $500,000 and an Alden or Oyster equally maintained. If you eliminate the subjectivity contained in most of the evaluations and hypotheses regarding who maintains them, the real difference often comes down to how and how often they are used, e.g., we have a nice Hinkley picnic boat next to us which has been used once ALL SEASON. Across from him is a well-raced Swan which looks like a typical race boat.

Making these kinds of comparisons is often misleading and usually devoid of facts.
 
#21 ·
Perhaps production boat owners use their boats more and thus have higher wear and tear. I cruised a marina in Seattle and talked to a few people there and it was amazing at the number of "high end" boats that sit there all season and never go out to sail. some of the owners come down to the dock once in a while and sit out in the cockpit and have a drink with some friends and call it good.
 
#22 ·
OK, here is a case in point of what I saw over the weekend... just one example:

You familiar with the portholes (I think they are called port light's or port light hatches in the mags/west marine, etc). The Lewmar hatches (cheap ones) that every productino boat uses are the lexan type with plastic snap down locks. My boat has them... probably everyones does. Well, every one of those were leaking on the boats.

Why were they leaking? Was it cheap materials or negligent owner? I blame the owner, but the argument could be made if they were the SS Screw downs, they might still be fine.

So in the end - maybe it is both.

HOWEVER, using that same example, lets take a look at a Hylas or Panda or Taswell. They are covered in teak, top to bottom... especially the last two. SO, if one of those hatches leaked, the damage could be much more severe than on a Catalina. Why? Catalina uses a LOT more fiberglass down below which would require some bleach water and elbow grease. That same water would be a major rip-out of cabinetry in a high end boat. Even the cabinetry can come out easy on a catalina and be easily matched. Gerry Douglas does that on purpose. I am not so sure any of the cabinets will come out easily in a high end boat... and matching them might be a nightmare if not just plain impossible.

THus, a high end boat can also be a negative for maintenance.

Agree??

In the end, I still say it all comes down to the owner and many owners of the production boats just do not have a clue.

- B
 
#23 ·
Andyman,

There ar a lot of production boats and high end boats that rarely leave the marina. Nice place for the weekend, and if the wind is not blowing too hard they might go out for an hour or so. No difference by the 2nd to 3rd year.

CD,

The "don't have a clue" comment can apply to both production and high end owners. Too bad, but a fact.
 
#24 ·
Andyman,

There ar a lot of production boats and high end boats that rarely leave the marina. Nice place for the weekend, and if the wind is not blowing too hard they might go out for an hour or so. No difference by the 2nd to 3rd year.

CD,

The "don't have a clue" comment can apply to both production and high end owners. Too bad, but a fact.
I agree with that Tommy. THere are examples of that statement in every sizeable marina around the world.

- CD
 
#25 · (Edited)
I don't know how to cast a vote for the poll, but I will come down firmly in the "Design and Quality" camp. Yes, it is difficult to make a direct, fair comparison given that individual boats are used and maintained differently. But assuming equal care and use, typical mass-production boats simply show far more wear and tear than the quality built ones. I think it is less the owner and more a function of a better design to begin with, superior craftsmanship, and quality materials.

It may be the best way to turn a profit and stay in business, but companies that churn out replacement designs every year aren't spending enough time prior to production perfecting the design. Quality builders do this, and then consistently improve the product over the course of production runs that typically span decades rather than a few short years.

Edit: I figured out how to cast my vote.
 
#31 ·
I think that the problem is a combination of design, quality of materials, the typical production boat purchaser, and the amount of capital the typical production boat owner has.

First, the design of many lower end production boats rely on certain production methods, like hull liners, to reduce the manufacturing costs. While these methods do reduce production costs, they do make the boat harder to repair or modify in many ways.

Second, the materials often used in a production boat may not be as high quality as those used in a higher end boat. On many production boats, you might see unfinished plywood, which would probably be finished on a higher end boat.

Third, the typical production boat buyer may not be a long-time sailor. As such, they may not be familiar with what the true costs of repairing, maintaining or even owning a sailboat really are. They also might not recognize the difference in construction materials and techniques used in the higher end boats, or realize how those differences will play out over time. Also, these often new sailors will often make mistakes that require the boat being repaired.

Finally, some people who buy a sailboat, buy what they can afford, and not realizing what all the additional costs are going to include, aren't prepared to spend what the true cost of maintaining and repairing the boat. A long-term sailor will probably have a better idea of what a good repair to the boat will cost and look like... the novice sailor may not.
 
#32 ·
Around here you only need to look at the waterline a stray barnecal here and there and some algea the boat moves from time to time. barnecals every were and oysters the boat hasn't moved in a very long time. We use to sail more than any one in the harbor but this year time has been scarce but we spend three out of five days on the boat working on it in preperation for our cruise this winter.
Most of the boats that don't leave are for sale. next would be the condo boats. And after that the fixer upers that never got fixed.
It's not just sailboats either drive around town and look at how many boats of all types are rotting under tarps in peoples yards and driveways . SAD:(
 
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