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Ferro-cement. yay or Nay?

15K views 51 replies 30 participants last post by  SailNet Archive 
#1 ·
As most of you know I'm in the process of shopping for a boat and this one just came on the market and it is a design that I love at a price that is unbeleivelable but it's made out of ferro-cement.

Just when I think I've decided on one...I find another one that I want... arghhh!

I have absolutely zero experience with ferro boats except for one that was moored at my last marina. It was faired smooth and seemed VERY solid and unless the owner told me I never would have known it was cement, it seemed like fiberglass.

My concern is their collision resistance. Hitting something mid-ocean has always been one of my greatest fears of passage making and it seems to me that a ferro-cement boat mayt have a tendancy to crack and crumble like a cinder block if struck hard. Am I off base here or is ferro-cement a decent building material?

BTW: it's 32' Tahiti Cutter

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listing/boatDetails.jsp?&units=Feet&currency=USD&ro=6&r=1812194&rs=yachtworld.com&rt=Cruiser&boat_id=1812194&checked_boats=1812194&toPrice=15000&Ntk=boatsEN&type=%28Sail%29&hmid=0&sm=3&enid=0&cit=true&toLength=45&currencyid=100&luom=126&boatsAddedSelected=-1&fromLength=28&No=260&ftid=0&slim=quick&Ns=PAll_sortPrice%7C1&rid=100&rid=101&rid=104&rid=105&rid=106&rid=107&rid=108&rid=112&rid=114&rid=115&rid=125
 
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#3 ·
I think the material's durability is dependent on the skill of the builder. If the cement was mixed properly and there are no voids and the reinforcing steel was properly seated and sealed so it doesn't corrode....etc. In other words, its no different than any other material when it comes to quality. Ferro seems to have gotten a bad rap because of the many backyard builders who didn't do a good job back in the day. Surveyors can look at a wooden boat and find rot, and they have been very clever in discovering ways to find hidden flaws in fiberglass boats (moisture meters, infrared imaging); maybe they have similar tricks for ferro boats.

I hear that one of the biggest problems for the prospective ferro boat owner is obtaining insurance. Make sure you nail that down before you get too invested in this boat.
 
#5 ·
Just saw the "no survey" restriction in the Yachworld ad. That ought to set some alarm bells off in your head. Ask yourself, what possible reason could this seller have for prohibiting a survey? Sorry to burst your boatstruck bubble, but the only reason is that he is afraid the surveyor will find something that he doesn't want you know about. Unless you have a need for a 20,000lb. doorstop, I would pass on this bargain.
 
#6 ·
The no survey/no seatrial is a great big STOP sign to me too. What are they hiding?

That aside, this is going to be a slow boat to wherever, and the interior really needs a rework to be practical. The problem with most ferro boats were the builders, there was a craze for a while when people thought they could build a 40' boat for a couple of grand, which was the cost of the hull actually, and didn't realize the real cost of finishing a boat regardless of the build material. As a result there were lots of abandoned projects left for the landfill eventually.

This boat looks alright in the pics, but there are too many red flags IMO.

A 32 foot boat for $9k.... you usually get what you pay for.
 
#7 ·
All the different tile I saw in the pictures makes me think she was redone with scraps. It would be interesting to take a look at her, but take a real good look at her. It could be fun to have a peek. Don't get your hopes up though.
 
#8 ·
Heretic-says: I kind of like the interior. Hanking a jib on that bow spirit, even in calm conditions, would be pretty interesting. But - at $9K - buy it, even if it's a complete disaster area, sell off seats on the boat-to-be-sunk to divers... never met one that didn't want to go down with the boat :) I've also always wanted to put an old worn out sailboat in a trailer park slot.

(please note: i'm a half wit no ferro-cement knowledge but I'm in for $300 if you buy it and decide to sink it)
 
#9 ·
Also agreeing with the previous posters, but I would add that I think the lava lamp is very cool. Find out if it comes with the boat!
 
#10 · (Edited)
what the heck, for 9k and a blue water boat. it seems to float. if you like it, go with it. you could probably insure it for liability only. looks like a nice design. just remember, someone will buy it. who's to say if it'll be a headache or not. all boats are headaches in one way or another. i see people lose more than that playing one hand of blackjack. it's definitely "Popeye" looking. good luck whatever you choose.
 
#11 ·
BS,

First, I will not pretend to be a FC expert. With that on the table:

I would stick with a more traditional material... even considering wood over cement. I agree with the bad reputations they have received. I have heard concerns about getting a surveyor that knows how to survey them. I have heard (as was mentioned before) concerns about insurance. I have heard that some are truly junk.

I HAVE ALSO HEARD... that there are some great deals to be had on them and a good one is a really good one. But with no survey (which seems unlikely anyways) I think your money would be better invested in fiberglass. You will put a lot of capital and time into a boat. Best to get one you can get rid of should you wish.

Just my opinions... and a LOT of hear-say I have collected on them over the years.

- CD
 
#12 ·
Nay. Sometimes even a free boat costs too much. And what's with that line "needs someone to finish." Just how much is not done? Plus, some of the interior work looks like crap to me. Save your money on this one and keep lookoking. It's a real soft market out there.
 
#13 ·
OK... no one has said anything that I haven't already thought of myself. Yes the 'no sea trial, no survey' thing was a huge red flag to me too but when you offer a 32' bluewater boat for 9k I kind of understand why they say that. To keep the tire kickers off the dock.

My question and concern was not as much about this boat specifically but about Ferrocement construction in general.

What is ferro cement anyway? Does it crack and/or crumble on impact with a submerged object? Or running aground?

And yes I know you have to give them away... this guy is giving his away. 9k for a 32' boat? And I could probably steal it for 7k Maybe (or there abouts). Then I sail it for a few years and sell it for a steal too. I'm not trying to flip it for a buck just have a decent boat to take me around the oceans for a couple years.

Still... yay or nay?
 
#26 ·
Yes the 'no sea trial, no survey' thing was a huge red flag to me too but when you offer a 32' bluewater boat for 9k I kind of understand why they say that. To keep the tire kickers off the dock.
Anyone who is so interested in a boat that he is willing to pay several hundred dollars to have it professionally surveyed is not a "tire kicker." He's a likely buyer. When the seller prohibits surveys, he's not eliminating tire kickers...he's eliminating potential buyers. Why would he do that? The only apparent reason is that, as others have said, he knows something about the boat that he hopes you won't find out until after you buy it.

The fact that the listing says "no surveys" doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have it surveyed before you buy it. That's open to negotiation. If you look at it, you can make an offer that is contingent on the results of a survey by your surveyor. If they still refuse, then there's no way I'd buy the boat. No honest seller in his right mind would reject a contract from a ready, willing and able buyer on a ferrocement boat, just because the buyer insists on a survey.
 
#15 · (Edited)
Full keel skag hung rudder
Bit of a spelling error. In Australian parlance a Skag is pretty much what a Ho is in the US... I suppose it seems reasonable that one could hold her breath long enough to hang on to the rudder for you as you sail.

:)

Sorry.

I would stay away from ferro boats in 99.9% of cases. There are a very VERY few european boat builders that seriously explored and refined the use of ferro cement for yachts. Their products are not shoddy and not cheap either. For a boat that tells you it was built in some mexican yard with variable humidities and doubtful quality control....No thanks. Not even if it were given to me for free.

Sasha
 
#17 ·
It might be suitable for blue water if that's the color of the pool you're going to park it in. $9.000 for what could be a three-room apartment isn't a bad deal, but you'd want to make sure it was well insulated to keep the A/C costs down, and you'd want to check the zoning laws about ancillary apartments before you hired a crane to move it. Demolition on the thing is probably a hefty sum (dumps charge by the ton...) and the work to take it apart would add to that, so maybe a few thou just to dump it. They don't want to waste time on it, so they make a take it of leave it deal. This is not your dream boat.
 
#18 ·
If you find a well-made Ferro-cement boat, then you have found a very good vessel. They are out there and they are very strong, durable craft. As they age they get stronger, not weaker.

A while ago - in the 70's - there was a big ferro-cement craze, as people found out that it was possible to build a hull for very few dollars. An awful lot very bad boats were started, some were finished, and some of those were launched and are still sailing. They are basically mortar over a steel mesh frame. In a lot of cases the inner steel has deteriorated. In other cases the plastering compound was not mixed properly and bonds are weak. Some other boats wre not cured at the correct temperature, or for long enough beore being painted and sealed.

If you are seriously considering a Ferro boat, then you need to do some exploring and research. This is a good starting point :
http://www.ferrocement.org/
 
#19 · (Edited)
Umm... the "no survey/no sea trial" part of the ad is a huge warning flag. Ferrocement boats, properly constructed, can be very good boats. Unfortunately, many ferrocement boats weren't made in anything close to the proper way, and the insurance industry and financing industry have strong reservations about giving insurance coverage or financing on them for those reasons.

Ferrocement was a fairly low-cost way to make a very sturdy boat. Many used pipe instead of solid rod for parts of the framing, and that is a serious problem, since the pipe would allow condensation to collect inside it, and then corrode from the inside out... weakening the frame and construction of the ferrocement boat from deep inside, where it would be very difficult to detect.

The idea of ferrocement construction was to bind many (eight or more usually) layers of steel mesh together very tightly. Then cement was forced into the mesh and over the mesh to form the hull. If the mesh was not bound tightly enough together or the cement not packed in properly, you would get either areas of fairly thick cement layup or voids in the cement layup—either of which would seriously weaken it. In theory, the construction was much like that of fiberglass boats... you had the steel mesh acting as the fibers, and the cement acting as the resin, and like a fiberglass boat, the strongest layups had the highest concentration of mesh and relatively low concentrations of "resin".

Another area where the construction techniques often fell short was in the "curing" phase of the ferrocement boat. The hull, once plastered with cement, needed to be kept wet, to allow the cement to harden with maximum strength. If they failed to do this... it would visually appear the same, but the strength of the hull would be vastly lower that it could have been. On one boat I know of the hull had a few spots that were apparently "missed" it the wetting out process and that is where large cracks developed in the boat.

I've seen some really beautifully constructed ferrocement boats... which were hard to tell as ferrocement boats. These are pretty far and few between. One of the sailing magazines had a good article recently on ferro-cement construction which you might want to read. If I can find the article, I'll post the name and date of the magazine.
 
#20 ·
There have been some quite wonderful ferro boats. One even pulled off line honours in the Sydney - Hobart some years back. If professionally built in a yard that knows what they are doing, OK, but semi professional or home built ? Not in a million years. The inherent problem with ferro is that the strength is in the steel not the ferro and the ferro is easily pierced. It's already been noted that unless fully professionally built they are impossible to insure but that is surely a major negative also.

As for no survey, you have got to be kidding. It's amazing what you can hide with a nice new coat of paint, at least until it starts coming off, in sheets. I can understand at that price the owner not wanting to naff around with test sails but no survey ? No way. Ten grand is still ten grand. Can you afford to piss that up aganst the wall ? Worth thousands more ? Only if someone else thinks so.

Ye olde Wombate just keeps remembering "if it sounds too good to be true, it probably is".

Oh and by the way, Tahiti's sail like your average footpath so it's probably apt that the thing is concrete. That's more the reason they don't want you to have a test sail plus of course you'd find out just how slowly a 12hp motor will propel a great big lump of rock. Get yourself a barge pole and keep your distance.

Oh yes, and as for "sail it for a few years" that's after spending a few years rebuilding the interior. Of course a queen size bed is a most important attribute, not to mention the flat screen TV, front opening fridge and the fake leopard skin bed covers. Sorry but the only thing a Tahiti is good for is crossing oceans but this one does not have the feel of an ocean goer. More a somewhat squalid houseboat than anything else.
 
#21 ·
Insurance

I would find out about insuring it. Most yards won't let you keep it on a mooring field without coverage. If you can get insurance, low ball, offer 2-3 thousand [since it can't be surveyed?] and you 'might' be getting a good deal.
I fear 'down the road headache' though. The old 'you get what you pay for' saying carries a lot of weight...
 
#23 ·
If they didn't use the proper reinforcement mesh or they didn't properly protect this reinforcement from corrosion, then the ferro-cement will have major structural issues which could be catastrophic and deadly. The hull could be brittle and any flex or impact could crack it open like an eggshell.....not to be negative or anything like that:eek:
 
#24 ·
And...... the only way to find these things out is to get a survey and look for the tell-tale rust weeping thru cracks in the cement, but then again, all that tile on the inside will be covering that up and the new topside paint on the outside will mask any exterior signs.....stay away from this one!!!!
 
#25 ·
I never have been able to "get" the logic.
Would you spend 9k on a car they wouldn't let you test drive?
Would you spend 9k on a car that they wouldn't let your mechanic raise the hood?

And to think, I just sold that beachfront condo in nebraska. I wouldn't give people the address, or let them look at the property.
 
#27 ·
First of all, the Tahiti Ketches were dismal boats in their original design. While they represented cheap way to go cruising using 1920's design concepts, They were anything but good offshore cruisers by any objective standard. Then with the added hull weight and reduced ballast of a ferro version it can only make them worse.
As for Fewrrocement you might want to look at the rather long and very detailed discussion on ferrocement boats over at the Cruisers Forum.com. http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=397&highlight=Ferrocement
Its a good thread with people weighing in on both sides, including a number of people who actually own ferrocement boats. My opening comments were as follows:

My take on ferro-cement is that it is, in fact, pound for pound the weakest of all of the commonly used boat building materials. Ferro-cement operates by the same principle as fiberglass, in other words, a high tensile strength reinforcing held by a high compressive strength, low tensile strength cement. The cement in ferro-cement ideally is a high strength Portland cement with a very fine sand aggregate. The cement in fiberglass is polyester, vinylester or epoxy resin. The tensile reinforcing material in ferrocement is steel (sometimes with glass fiber added), and in fiberglass it is glass fibers in a variety of forms, kevlar, carbon and all kinds of new variations on these materials.

Ferro-cement's weight comes from a number of sources. First of all, no matter how small the boat, there is a practical limit to how thin ferro-cement can be. Ferro-cement needs to have a minimum thickness in order to have sufficient depth of material to protect the reinforcement from moisture. Because of this boats below 40 to 45 feet are generally considered too small to use ferro-cement efficiently. (i.e. their hulls, and deck structures weigh more than they would in some other material.)

The implication of the weight issue is not readily obvious. At the risk of sounding like a broken record, Weight in and of itself does nothing good for a boat. It does not make it stronger, or more comfortable or more stabile. Weight does increase the stress on the various parts of a boat. It increases the size of a sail plan required to achieve a particular speed. It increases drag and typically means that for a given draft a boat will have a less efficient keel (i.e trading off greater drag for the same amount of leeway.)

In order to carry more sail area the heavier boat with equal or less ballast stability needs greater form stability, which comes at the price or a choppier motion and greater drag, or greater ballast or deeper ballast which adds more weight and drag and perhaps depth.

To keep the weight down, many ferro-cement cement boats have reduced ballast ratios when compared to other construction techniques. This means that they need more sail area because of their weight but they can't carry more sail area because of reduced ballast ratios, at least not without using lower aspect rigs which are by their very nature much less efficient on almost all points of sail.

This is further complicated by the fact a higher proportion of the weight in a ferro-cement boat is carried in the in the topsides (and sometimes decks). This means a high center of gravity which has a variety of implications; reduced stability, wider roll angles, smaller angles of ultimate stability, and more prone to excitation rolling (which may be slightly offset by the greater inertial moments due to weight).

This added hull and deck weight, larger sail plan, and perhaps greater ballast requirement to carry the sail plan make these boats a less than ideal choice for distance voyaging for a variety of reasons. Any given design can only safely carry so much weight before it begins losing safety, stability and sailing ability. If excess weight weight is required for the hull, deck, rig and ballasting, there is less weight available to carry food, stores and gear. For a given payload, a bigger more capacious boat is required. And since displacement is a major component in determinging the amount of anticipated maintenance costs (affecting sails and deck hardware size, ground tackle and dock lines, engine size and fuel consumption, down to even simple things like the amount of bottom paint required), these boats that are become expensive to maintain as well.

Then there is maintenance costs. In a study performed some years back looking at the life costs of various materials, ferro-cement-cement came out as the highest maintenance cost material (if I remember worst to best was ferro-cement, steel, conventional wood, aluminum, fiberglass, cold molded wood) Of course as with any generalized study there will be case by case exceptions and given the comparatively small sampling of non-FRP boats the results could easily been skewed by a few bad apples.

Other problems with ferro-cement are the difficulty of connecting things to it, and prevention of rot in wood in contact with ferro-cement. The difficulty in bolting to ferro-cement is that ferro-cement hates localized loadings. It's hard to glue things to ferro-cement. secondary bonds are greatly greatly weaker than primary bonds.

Then there is the market value thing. ferro-cement does have a reputation in the States that does not match the comparatively high regard that it is held in other countries. Some of this is just plain unfair prejudice but some of this comes from real shortcomings in the materials as noted above. A well-built ferro-cement boat can be a reasonably good cruising boat. But the image of the crudely finished 'hippie' built cement and rust buckets still clouds the perception of ferro-cement for many North Americans.

The other problem is telling whether the boat that you are looking at is a good boat. It is very hard with non- destructive survey techniques to tell whether the original work was done well and is in good condition. While sounding will reveal any major separations in the cement to reinforcing bond, it does little to determine the affects of fatigue, poor curing practices or cold joints. With Ferro-cement it is particularly important to maintain the ferro-cement parts in good condtion. That can be very significant. People who buy boats because they are priced well below the market, often are overly frugal or just plain do not have the money that it takes to properly maintain a boat. An otherwise good Ferro-cement boat left to poor maintenance and miss-handling can quickly become a poster child for why North American's don't trust Ferro-cement

To me the real cost of owning a boat is the difference between what you paid for the boat, the cost of upgrades and maintenance and the price that you can get when you sell the boat. The problem with a lot of low value boats is that the sales price is always limited no matter how much you put into the boat. This too works against ferro cement boats.

I guess my conclusion is if you are strictly looking for an initial up front cost boat and don't mind putting some sweat equity in, and you can look past the sailing shortcomings, and you actually find one that was well built and well maintained, a ferro-cement boat might work out fine for you. For most of us, they do not.

Respectfully

Jeff

 
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