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  #21  
Old 04-29-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats

One (or two) minor point(s), properly designed, you don''t loose bouyancy with a finer bow, you just stretch it out. Typically,the bouyancy is still there. Modern fine bows take that bouyance and stretch it further forward by moving the point of entry closer to the stem. By actually pulling bouyancy forward on the hull, tendancy for the bow to have hard collisions with each wave is reduced while still maintaining enough buoyancy to keep from submarining if sailed with reasonable prudence. By that I mean, modern boats are often judged harshly by things that happen to the more extreme version being pushed to the limit. Sailing at over close to 20 knots and often above, a lot of really ugly stuff can and does happen. But throttled back even just a little bit these boats make great cruisers. The careful modeling of the hull, and placement of weight and buoyancy results in boats that are remarkably dry, and with less pitching and smaller roll angles and so they tend to be less fatiquing than the traditional boats that I used to sail. While I am not sure that fatigue is the number one killer offshore, I agree that fatigue certainly can be a major cause of accidents and bad judgement. That is one reason that I no longer sail traditional boats. The heavy loadings on helm and control lines, and the larger pitch and roll angles really wore me down. As much as I still really love sailing genuine traditional boats (in a breeze), I have gotten too old to sail them regularly without really coming off the water feeling beaten up.

Good night all,
Jeff
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  #22  
Old 04-30-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats

Denr:

I just caught your response to my original response to your original post that started this thread. In your original post you started off saying, "What the hell are those designers thinking of when they make the stern of the boat so wide?" I tried to answer that question by explaining the hydrodynamic reasons for that. This aftward shift in center of buoyancy (which has resulted in the more powerful stern sections that you mentioned) has filtered down off of the racecourse and its associated tank testing. When you have highly respected race boat designers like Bruce Farr and Groupe Finot, designing the Beneteaus, and Glen Henderson designing recent hulls for Hunter, and Tim Jackett designing C&C''s, of course the hull forms will derive from race boats and will push the envelope a bit toward better speed and handling characteristics. (I don''t know why Catalina has gone to wider stern sections.)

While the shape of the hull will alter the accomodations plan, making the vee berth narrower or moving it aft a bit and perhaps make a rommier aft cabin, looking at the boats and designers that I mention above, I firmly believe that the change derives from performance and not ergonomics and that the ergonomics have been adjusted to accomodate the sailing characteristics and not the other way around.

That said, none of these boats appear to be derived from sleds. They appear to be more closely derived from the IMS typeform. I donít know if you''re familiar with the difference between racing sleds and IMS type forms so Iíll assume that your comments were from an uninformed perspective. In either case I never did make a leap from ergonomics on a cruising boat to the professional racing boats. I simply attempted to answer your original question about what designers were possibly thinking when they designed more powerful stern sections.

You went on to ask,"When heeled over does the fat ass stern have any adverse affect on the stability of the boat?"
Again, I tried to answer your question by explaining that more powerful sections, when properly modeled do not have a negative effect on stability and properly done can help with stability while not hurting motion comfort adversely.

You end with "I am more convinced than ever that the people that design and build these boats have never sailed one of their creations."

You may be convinced of that but when you look at the sailing credentials of the current crop of designers named above, these are all serious offshore sailors albeit mostly on racing yachts. Bruce Farr, who I know best in this esteemed grouping, personally owned for many years a Farr 1020 (a New Zealand built boat with very powerful stern sections for a 34 footer) that he sailed and cruised out of Annapolis. He certainly has spent time on his boats. Henderson, and Jacketts are no strangers to sailing their boats as well.

I am not sure what your point you are trying to make by mentioning wing keels, but wing keels were introduced in 12 meters to improve windward performance in a boat that from a pure speed stand point wanted to be deeper. They worked well on the 12''s and were introduced in cruising yachts as a way to improve the performance of a shoal draft keel. They actually accomplished that goal pretty well. Obviously, all other things being equal, they do not sail as well as a deeper fin keel or fin and bulb.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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  #23  
Old 04-30-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats

maybe sailboats with fat rear ends are designed that way...because we have fatter rear ends???
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Old 05-01-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats

Dehnr: After reading your post and all the delightful feedback, I decided to add my own. I think you may be focusing on the wrong thing. With cars, boats, motorcycles, and even homes, we are a diverse nation. We all look for different attributes in the goods we purchase. I ride a Goldwing Motorcycle and detest the crotch rockets and loud Harleys. However, I feel a certain kinship with most of the people who ride those things. Its what they enjoy. I live in a brick home but do not think any less of those folks who choose to live in Manufactured Homes. In fact, I praise them for they have put food on my table and boats in my slips for the past 22 years as I work for a major M/H manufacturer. We build what people want. PERIOD. If you don''t, you don''t stay in business. I sail a 22 year old Helms 30. I love my boat and think it is the prettiest boat on the lake. It has a narrow stern and at times I am jealous of those others who can get 6 or 7 people in their cockpit. My is full with 4. The guy next to me is a great guy, 3 kids and a wife who enjoy sailing in my boat. They sail a 28'' bucaneer. UGLY boat. But that is my opinion. They love their boat and it is what gets them on the water. I certainly do not think less of them for owning a Buc. I guess what I''m trying to say is that I would rather focus on my relationship with my fellow sailors than trying to understand WHY they purchased whatever they are on the water in. There''s another guy down the dock that sails a Mac 26, I wonder if he would let me sail with him.....mmmmm

Randy
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  #25  
Old 05-01-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats

Just saw this thread for the first time. I have an older Cal, with a narrow beam and stern. That said, I too noticed that more and more, beams are huge at the stern. However, I have read, as Jeff points out, that it is for sailing ability. I just went to the Hylas website. (I care nothing about Hylas, but my upside down magazine on the desk is showing an ad) I know that they are very pricy, respected boats. Anyway, the first thing discussed is "Designed by internationally renowned, German Frer who plumbed the bow and carried the beam aft on the Hylas 46 to offer a longer water line and the highest performance." I think it has to do with performance first. The nice thing is that it also allows for a kicking master cabin, which should be in the stern anyway. I know, as I am crammed in my vee berth. My .02

Matt F
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  #26  
Old 05-14-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats

I have a C&C 34+, (big fat transom). It has a large wheel to match and can be steered from any place in the cockpit. Down bellow I have a queen size birth that I can actually sleep with my wife in. First time in 15 years of sailing we could do that for more than just an amorus moment. Nope you got it wrong... the wide transoms bring alot to the party above and bellow deck.
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  #27  
Old 05-21-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats


Oh, Bporter,

I sailed Beneteaus for years for charter delivery mostly, but also for racing, and on private yachts, and a new friend here on the internet has told me about all the wonderful features of the 40.7. I am so happy to hear you love your''s too. I knew great things were coming from the Madame bringing the bigger hulls to the US from France. She still has some great (i.e. Bruce Farr) designers with her. Again, from many years of experience with Beneteaus, I am so glad to hear of those happy with their boats. I have nothing to do with it, really. I don''t work for Beneteau or anything like that. Heck, I don''t hardly get to the coast to sail anymore, maybe once a year, but anyway.

You have fun, and win races, and take up for your "fat ass stern boat".

Best of wind,
MaryBeth
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  #28  
Old 05-21-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats


Well said, Don.

Have spent many a wonderful, happy evening on the fat ass stern of a Beneteau. But, as far as your comments on the marina mentality - have to say I profited from that. One year the owner of a boat I was employed on heard that a guy in the marina on Lake Erie had a taller mast, so I was paid to disstep the mast then step a taller mast. Even that two feet made him happy, and I made about 400 bucks. So, though it does seem silly, there are those who cannot live without the biggest, even though it means almost nothing in the performance of the boat. Just made 2 more feet for me to have to dangle from to replace a light when it went out just before the july 4th festivities that year.

Best wishes,
MaryBeth
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  #29  
Old 12-07-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats

Isn''t it true that these fat ass transoms come about because of the change from I.O.R.rules to the I.M.S.?

Dennis
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  #30  
Old 12-07-2002
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Fat Ass Sterns of New Boats

Its not that simple. IOR over penalized the minimal differences in the girths, encouraging pinched in sterns and bows. IOR era modern designed boats that were not designed to any rule generally carried more powerful stern sections (For example the J-35, Farr 38 and Express 37). When the IMS rule came in it was a VPP based rating and so designers were able to design boats shaped by sailing conditions and not by some artificial attempt to beat some rule. In an effort to achieve faster speeds both upwind and downwind, coupled with an easier motion to permit less disturbance to sail shape and more comfort for the crew, IMS boats adopted a hull form with a finer bow and a more powerful run. So I would not precisely say "that these wider transoms came about because of the change from I.O.R.rules to the I.M.S." but that they came about to improve performance and motion. They were permitted by the less restrictive nature of the IMS. Really broad transoms do not occur under IMS as much as MORC and Open class boats.

Respectfully,
Jeff
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