Getting the surveyor's best effort.

[wind_magic]

What methods do you use to get a surveyor's best work when they are doing a survey on a boat you are interested in ? Yes, obviously, you pay them. But what else can you do to get the surveyor to really dig around in the boat to figure out what is wrong with it ? Do you go along with them while they do the survey ? Just explain to them how important it is to you to know what is wrong with the boat ? What expectations should a potential buyer have about a surveyor's work ?

Thanks in advance.

[cardiacpaul]

wind,
I'm going to be a real smart-ass here.... and I'm not going to take it personally. So don't you take it personally either ok?
Does your boss come up to you and tell you that your work is the most important work for the company that will be done at the company today?
When you start you day, do you give a half assed effort? If you go to the dentist, is it ok if they just kinda go thru the motions?

I don't really mind if my a/c guy just shows up, drinks coffee and sucks up potted meat sammiches, do you?

A) Trust me, we know its important to you. Its YOUR money.
B) Our "reputation" is at stake, for some of us, thats pretty important.
C) If we do a good job, you may tell someone, If we do a bad job, you'll tell everyone you know.

But what else can you do to really get the surveyor on board to get out there and really dig around in the boat to figure out what is going on with it ?

hot sex with a hot 18 year old stripper always works. (prepaid, of course, hey, it won't take that long)

Seriously....
ITS MY JOB to go over it with a fine tooth comb.
ITS MY JOB to be an anal retentive plick..
ITS MY JOB to wonder why theres fresh 5200 right there, under here, why is that there, what did they do, and why did they do it?
ITS MY JOB to wonder why the water temp gauge was replaced.
ITS MY JOB to wonder why the oil pressure sender has heat shrink on one of the wires.
ITS MY JOB to ask why they've got an hour meter from 1997 installed on a 1986 boat.
ITS MY JOB to push, pull pinch, smell, finger, fold, spindle (never mutilate.)
ITS MY JOB to know that I ask what insurance company YOU are going to use, that will be the determining factor in writing one of two phrases.
Phrase "A" "House electrical wiring is at grade and is in good operating condition"
Phrase "B" "House wiring is at spec with ABYC at the time of manufacture, (if it was) is at grade and is in good operating condition."
Why? a couple of insurance companies will REQUIRE an upgrade to CURRENT ABYC spec. if I don't put that in. care to figure that cost into a perfectly serviceable system?

I don't care about the cockpit speakers, I want to see the back of the electrical panel, I want to see whats wired to what. and why.

I want to know why the boat has been for sale for 2 years. I want to know why its sooooo polished. I want to see what its hiding.
I want records, I want to see when the last oil change was and who did it, When was the gen set checked, Why was the a/c guy there twice in the past year. Why?
ITS MY JOB!

ITS MY JOB to ask questions, to have a jaded eye, to take whats said with a bucket full of salt.

ITS MY JOB to remove myself personally from the boat, to give it an objective survey.

I look at it like this.
Some of these tubs are going for more that what the people paid for their house. ITS MY JOB to make sure its -as advertised, seaworthy, find the rats nests, look in all of the hidey holes, Estimate cost of repairs and/or upgrades, within price range of other models like it... and be a royal pain in the patootie when it comes to all of the systems on the boat.

How do you know if you're getting a good one? Ask other owners who they used. Ask your Lender or your insurance company who they use. Certs on a website aren't that big of a deal any more, yes, they have tests and you have to show your work and experience, but to be listed, a "fee" is normally required from the "governing bodies." I don't pay no stinking fees. I won't, I refuse. Want to see my membership cards and cert numbers, sure, here they are, but I don't have to be listed on the site, and many of us aren't.

Ask to see sample surveys over a range of boats. Ask if they specialize. I know a couple of guys that only to powerboats, and a couple more that only do sail. And some that should do neither.

For me its a lot better experience for all involved if the potential buyer and the owner are there. I don't care if the broker is there or not.

In short, ITS MY JOB (and passion) to do a good job.

(jumping off soap box for now, I think I'll just do a half assed survey tomorrow just for grins, ok? hope its not yours) KIDDING!)

Heres one situation where you won't get me to do a good job. Ask me for a discount. ga ahed, axe me for one, I dare ya...You cheap SOB. You're looking at a 200K boat and you wanna a discount on a 800.00 survey. (and I'm very likely to tell you just that) Good luck to ya, get somebody thats cheaper. I'll be busy ~oh, for the next year if you ask again. (not you of course, I mean someone thats looking at a 200k boat and asks for a discount)

[Faster]

Well, I guess you've been told, wind magic!

With respect to CP, though, there are some less than stellar surveyors with their shingles hung out there. So you really do need to get some word-of-mouth scuttlebutt and recommendations locally so that you get someone like CP to do your survey.

This can be difficult if you are shopping/buying away from your own local area. You often end up in the unenviable position of being given a name by the selling broker. If possible you should ask around for references but the other thing about shopping away is you are usually on a stricter timeline.

In my experience most surveyors that stay in business for an extended period of time are thorough and knowledgable, and have integrity. I've only run into one that did a laughable job but in that case it was a routine insurance survey on a very simple boat, not a pre-purchase one so we let it ride.

[wind_magic]

Cardiacpaul, that was an awesome response, thanks so much for taking the time to write it. It is very comforting to know that there is are surveyors out there who take it so seriously, because, like you said, it's important to me the buyer. Really important. That's totally what we buyers want is someone who is really going to figure out what the hell is going on.

I have like zero experience with surveyors, my only experience with something similar is with people who inspect homes for various problems. I've seen the results from some of those home surveys so I know what kind of things they are checking for in a house, but on a boat I don't know if there is a standard you work to, or if it's different with every surveyor, or if there are different levels of surveys depending on what the customer wants, or what. That was part of the reason I was asking the question. It's not that I thought the surveyor would do a poor job, necessarily, though that was in my mind, but more that I don't know what to ask for and how to get a good survey because I've never had one done before. I thought maybe there was like one kind of a survey for insurance purposes and another kind of survey for something else, and I want to get the really good survey that finds everything that could be wrong.

Originally Posted by cardiacpaul

How do you know if you're getting a good one? Ask other owners who they used. Ask your Lender or your insurance company who they use. Certs on a website aren't that big of a deal any more, yes, they have tests and you have to show your work and experience, but to be listed, a "fee" is normally required from the "governing bodies." I don't pay no stinking fees. I won't, I refuse. Want to see my membership cards and cert numbers, sure, here they are, but I don't have to be listed on the site, and many of us aren't.

Ask to see sample surveys over a range of boats. Ask if they specialize. I know a couple of guys that only to powerboats, and a couple more that only do sail. And some that should do neither.

I know it's asking a lot after you wrote such a great response, but, do you have any other suggestions for finding a good surveyor ? It sounds like you are saying that the paper certification isn't so important, and that it's good to ask around and see who other people use. Anything else come to mind ?

For me its a lot better experience for all involved if the potential buyer and the owner are there. I don't care if the broker is there or not.

I hope this is the case for all surveyors, because I would like to be there to see what they find, I'd even like it if they bring me in and show me any issues that they find as they go along. That way I can understand better what the challenges are.

Thanks again for the great response, that really helped me out.

[Robby Barlow]

Nice post CP,
along those lines and because of not having any experience with surveyors, I would like to ask how long (on average) should a survey take. I appreciate there's a lot of factors to consider, but for example since we've seen a lot of pictures of the Tayana CD found for his folks, how long (+-) should that survey have taken?

[I33]

Cardiac Paul pretty much sums it up. If the surveyor is concientious and ethical, he will put his best effort into it. So how do you find the good ones? Reputation, reputation, reputation.

The guy I use here on the Upper Texas Coast is loved by buyers and feared by brokers. I had one broker tell me he wouldn't let Mike survey the boat I was interested in! Needless to say the deal didn't proceed.

As a rule, don't use a surveyor recommended by the listing broker. They tend to be of the Will Rogers type--you know, he never met a boat he didn't like.

Do your research, find a reputable surveyor and don't complain about how much he costs. The survey on our F51 took two days and cost $850--but the difference between the broker's survey and mine saved us $30k. That's a pretty good return on investment.

[teshannon]

CP's got it right. The only thing I would add is that I think it is extremely wise to be there for the survey, not to look over his shoulder but to learn and ask questions. I did and I benefited greatly from it. My surveyor discussed everything he found with me on the spot and gave some insights that I would not have gotten otherwise.

[Gryzio]

I been around boats all my life. I think my mom gave birth to me in a flat bottom fishing boat.

So, I can pretty much do my own evaluation, though for the money, if I were buying a $50,000+ boat, I would most likely pay a surveyor. Ask around and see what people have to say in your area.

As CP mentions. His reputation is on the line. A good surveyor will be preceded by words of "Integrity". I know people are not perfect, but, I know when they going to do their best possible too.

Also, as mentioned, I would tag along as the survey is done. One reason is "Not" trust issues, but, as the survey done I can write down things I want to know and ask questions to learn more.

When I had a Landscaping Business my motto was; "We encourage competition, because a working man is not a Thief"! (Debatable motto)
But, the bottom line. If, a man is good at what he does. He is not afraid of competition and willing to teach others. So, a good surveyor should not mind a person looking over their back to learn.

Just don't be trying to teach him as you look. Just learn.

[sailingdog]

Damn, and you're supposed to survey a boat for me tomorrow... I think I'll bring my shotgun along...

I think I'll just do a half assed survey tomorrow just for grins, ok? hope its not yours

One main thing.... hire your own surveyor... one that isn't recommended by the boat owner or broker... someone who will have your best interests at heart. Also, don't really want to low-bid on surveyors, since you do often get what you pay for. The better surveyors will often have a waiting list or delay in when they can fit you in.

[cardiacpaul]

As far as different levels of survey are concerned, the short answer is yes, kind of.

Theres the "hey, Paul, this boat has been for sale for a couple of years do you know anything about it?" phone call from people that I know, for a boat that I know.
Thats a 10 minute phone call catching up about the wife and kids, 10 minutes about the boat, lets do lunch.

Theres the "Hey, if you're ever over at Dewy-Cheatham and Howe's Brokerage, theres a Frogbobber 41 over there, take a gander and tell me if its worth looking at, willya?"

Thats a ten minute fly by while I'm around and a return phone call. Send me a nice Christmas card, ok?

Theres the "pre-pre purchase survey"
Thats when we all meet up at the boat, start going over it, we find the deck doubles as a trampoline, and I take you aside, tell you the whys and why-nots, you cut me a check for a lot less than half of the survey and you dodge a bullet.

The other surveys are pretty straight forward, they're outlined all over the 'net.
Pre-purchase, (with and wihhout Lender financing)
Delivery
Insurance
Insurance Damage

I really like it when the potential buyer is there for the survey. I use a personal recorder and I've worn out a couple of digital cameras, but its just easier when I can point something out and say to them "this little doo-hickey here is ok for the next year or two depending on how you use it, but look to replace it if you find a good deal on the 'net"

Length of time for a survey.
That depends on the boat. If its a catalina 30, we've all been on so many of them we know exactly where to look for the common issues and the uncommon ones. So that won't take as long is it will for the Homer Fredriech semi-custom 36 racing sloop thats been converted into a coastal cruiser. Figure a day for anything say, oh, 30 feet and more for a bigger boat.

Sometimes its harder for the potential owner to separate themselves from the "aesthetics" of a boat versus the operational and maintenence issues.

How many have looked at a teak deck and said, wow, that sure is pretty. I'm turning a hose on it. For a long time.
I want to see the color of the water coming off into the scuppers, I want to go below see where its leaking. (because... it is leaking, or it has leaked, or... it will leak) (unless its been glued only, and thats another kettle of fish heads)

Cabin and berths....
Its pretty to see nice new cushions, new sheets, brand new beds... ummm, why did they replace them? I'd rather see well kept original disco-era ugly burnt orange tweed. At least then I can see the stains-rips-tears & how many divorce driven drunken orgys took place. (and why exactly wasn't I invited to any of them, hmmm?)

Cupholders all over, the fridge and wine locker stuffed to the gills with booze. Hmmm, do they own a liquer store or are they entertainers that don't leave the dock often, or are they out there in the middle of the night half cocked, beating the hell out of the batteries, getting her hung up, using the boom as some kinky sexual aid, were the lifelines used as leaning posts... things like that.

Sea-trials.
Much has been made about If you should get one or not.
I'm of the opinion that you should.
Reasoning is that while the (preferably owner) is piloting the boat, I'm crawling all over it, looking and listening. I don't care about how well it points, how far over she heels, or the sailing skill of the owner. (save for one issue that I'll get to in a minute.) I'm looking for things that creak, ping, snap, crackle and pop. I'm looking at the operational issues of the boat. Does the owner have a pre-sail checklist. Does he have to stand on one foot & raise a offering to the Gods to get the motor started. Where is it damp now that it wasn't at the dock, does everything work while under sail, do the instrument lights flicker? Why? What "sticks a little" under load. Does the head work @ 10 degrees of heel? Does the autopilot require constant adjustment"just till we get it set you know" (right...)

The only time I'll take the wheel is to test out the operation of the rudder and see how the operational aspects of the boat perform.

One thing I also like to see... How does the captain dock the boat. I know, any docking where you don't hear a crunching sound is a good one, but, does he slam the tranny from forward to reverse, does he race the motor to try to overcome propwalk, basically, how much care does he show in operation of the systems.

This is a really broad brush overview, I've got to get ready for church, and go to one of those divorce driven drunken orgys.

couple of other things...
Some fellas won't touch an engine other than to say "yup, there it is, get an engine survey" ( I always try to get an oil sample on inboards at the very least)... same for rigging and sails. I'm not going up a mast, just not gunna do it. Wouldn't be prudent.
At minimum, ASK THEM BEFORE YOU CONTRACT FOR THE SURVEY ABOUT WHAT IS AND IS NOT INCLUDED. You should get a "Statement of work" before you sign on the dotted line.