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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 03-17-2008
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i agree with John also there's really no point with ketch or yawl rigged boats until you get up to the 50 foot mark.
I don't know if this was previously mentioned but for those new to sailing a Ketch has its mizzen (secondary) mast forward of the rudder post wheras a yawl has it aft. I hope someone found that helpfull.
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Old 03-17-2008
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I think that may be the difference between the pointing ability of my boat as opposed to a Ketch. Other than the addition of the Mizzen aft of the cockpit and rudder, the only difference between it and the sloop version is the E measurement is 2 feet shorter. So, with a 2' shorter boom and the added SA of the Mizzen, there's no real change in pointing ability.
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Old 05-11-2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artbyjody View Post
Very nice write-up thanks for sharing it....

Jeff, if you're out there somewhere, "thanks" for the lesson above. I've never sailed a yawl or ketch and so have no opinion other than hundreds of hours on sloops whose behaviors are predictable to me. Recently, a yacht broker took pains to convince me that a ketch was a better idea to cruise singlehanded than a sloop. Fortunately, the argument was friendly. Perhaps there was a ketch in a slip that needed a new owner right away.

OS
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2010
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Well, the old ketch vs. Sloop or cutter thing is like any other partisan bickering. People who love ketches swear by them, people who don't swear AT them.

I happen to fall into the group of people that LOVE them, and I have a 30 foot ketch - an early sixties Allied Seawind...her hull is my sig picture to the left. Here's my argument for a ketch-rig on a small boat:

Please note, though, that I have set up my rig in a very tradional manner: I.E- I've got two forestays side-by-side, genoa is hanked on the port forestay, the working jib is hanked on the starboard forestay. I use no roller furler. My halyards are on shroud belaying pin racks, except when in use, then they're cleated to the mast. Oh, and I row instead of motor; and I climb the ratlines and mast-steps instead of having someone haul me up, when I wanna get up the mast, not that that has to do with ketch v sloop, but it kinda shows where I'm coming from.

Okay...here goes:

1)Ketches allow you more sail hanging options. In moderate to heavy weather, I am often running just working jib and mizzen. I get 6 knots out of this on a decent wind, and the boat is extremely well-balanced. Or I could go with a mule sail and jib and jigger, or put up all sails, whatever.

2)The mizzen is indispensible for manuevering the boat in tight corners! I usually leave and come back to the slip under sail. Depending on wind direction,I'll either have the mizzen or jib ready to raise depending on which way i want to swing. Sometimes if the wind is blowing skunk from the port, I'll have the mizzen raised to keep the bow from blowing to stbd too much while I back out.

Raising and lowering the mizzen and working jib up far and down in sequence, allows you to basically spin the boat in her own circumference. You can't do that with your fancy roller-furled sloops and cutters. Spinning in your own circumference REALLY comes in handy when your sailing in in a tight area with docks and boats and moorings all around. To do this I walk the jib halyard back to the cockpit, and raise and lower the sails as needed as I turn.

3) the mizzen comes in really handy when your raising and lowering your other sails. The mizzen is always the first sail I raise and the last sail I douse. The mizzen will allow the boat to keep herself nicely pointed into the wind, while I go forward and raise the jib and then the main.

4) mizzen makes a great riding sail at anchor if you have some minor currents that are screwing with your set.

5) mizzen and jib is a GREAT combo for heaving-to. Heaving-to in heavier winds, I'll reef the mizzen and set to a stormsail on the forestay. I prefer the addition of the mizzen while hove-to. In very heavy-weather, I douse the mizzen and just heave-to under stormsail.

6)FAR from being a hinderance in the cockpit, in heavy-weather I am ALWAYS glad that mast is there. It's a great support, I have 4 extra shrouds to hang to. I lean against the mast. I can lash myself to it if I had to during heavy conditions, ha ha, except I'd be down below instead, if I was at bare-poles state!!

7)With a mizzen, you can have lower masts with the same sail area, and thus a lower center of effort...important in ocean storms

8) Your sails will be smaller and easier to handle, for those that still handle their sails.

Sure there are a couple drawbacks to a mizzen mast in the cockpit: You can't really have a bimini top under sail, although I DO have a sweet custom-made cockpit awning that fits around the mast for at anchor or at dock. And when VERY close-hauled, the mizzen doesn't add oodles of power. And the mizzen complicates the wind effect when running. I find the mizzen doesn't dirty the air of the jib way up forward as much as it would the main, so I wing and wing the mizzen and main. So it's like wing and wing and wing.

I am sorry....but ketches are a WIN, no matter what size boat. The argument that a ketch-rig only is good on a larger boat is myopic. The attributes that make a ketch-rig attractive on a larger boat are the SAME attributes that make a ketch-rig attractive on a smaller boat. I don't buy that arguement at all. My ketch-rig doesn't really hinder my movements really, or certainly not enough to not have a ketch rig. The argument against a ketch rig is based upon two factors: Strict performance and the the convenience of bimini covered cockpit. Sure, a sloop with full batten sails, is probably going to outperform to windward the same length ketch, but if performance was my only goal, I'd spend ALL my time sailing a Tornado 20. I'm often up to my hull speed with my ketch as it is, with all rags flying. I REALLY would not want to sail anything BUT a ketch, for the above reasons, especially not in a 4 day blow. Ketches made sense decades ago...they still make sense now. The seas and winds and storms haven't changed.

I think these days sailors are TOO reliant on their gizmos and conveniences...but often those presumed conveniences will let you down when the sheet hits the fan. Roller furling; all lines lead aft; cockpits surrounded by plastic-windowed biminis; electric mast furling; elecric windlasses; electric winches even!!! Sheeeezh...is sailing becoming like TV??
Naahh. No thank you. I'll have none of that. Okay. My rant's up.
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Last edited by SoulVoyage; 05-11-2010 at 03:57 AM.
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Old 05-11-2010
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Makes perfect sense, at least to someone like myself. Still, it seems very likely that short handed/solo sailing will be simpler, require less expensive maintenance and in all ways be easier to live with on a sloop. First chance I get I'll spend a few days on a ketch and with luck that will happen before I own my next boat.

OK, who's out there on San Francisco bay that wants to demo his/her ketch?

OS
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