Buying Boat on the Hard

captainrizzo · #1 (**permalink**) 03-02-2008

I am under contract for the purchase of a 1983 Irwin 31 Citation that is in winter storage (outdoors) in West Michigan. I am adding 10' LOA and 3' at the beam from our AMF 2100. The purchase contract is contingent on a satisfactory marine survey and sea trial, and we have an escrow agreement for the major systems (i.e. engine, outdrive, water system, waste system and electrical system). Normal maintenance items are not included. I have placed a deposit on this boat.

One of the issues is that the boat cannot be surveyed until we have a week of above-freezing temps. This is coming from the certified surveyor that I will be using (not from the same area). I am guessing that the survey will be done sometime later in March. The sea trial will be sometime after that, no earlier than April 15.

Should I get a separate engine and major systems survey for when the boat is launched?

How much can I rely on the marina to accurately assess whether there is a serious issue with the engine vs. a maintenance issue? The owner is selling the boat through the marina's sales office.

I have asked for maintenance records and haven't received them yet. Should I push harder for this? Even if I get the records, how do you know what you don't know? I mean, what if they listed on the invoice for the last oil change "you really need to replace the diesel engine." I probably wouldn't get that maintenance record would I?

I am getting a little nervous about this whole thing. Is this normal? Am I over-reacting? It is a lot of money for me! Help from some of you more senior guys would be fantastic!

Riz

sailingdog · #2 (**permalink**) 03-02-2008

Generally, a good surveyor will take at least a cursory look at the engine and rigging, but getting separate rigging and engine surveys are probably a good idea, given the age of the boat, since it may well be due for a standing rigging replacement at 25 years old. The rigging and engine are complex enough that they should have separate surveys IMHO. The surveyor should also be checking the plumbing and electrical systems.

If the marina's sales office is involved, double check everything they say and get it in writing. They have a serious financial motive for getting the boat sold... and can not be trusted.

As for maintenance records, if the owner said he has them, and has done the regular and routine maintenance that is required, but is unwilling to provide documentation of the maintenance or the records in question, that would raise a red flag IMHO.

I seriously hope this boat doesn't have an outdrive....since I've never, ever seen an outdrive on a sailboat.

camaraderie · #3 (**permalink**) 03-02-2008

Riz...I would no worry about maintenance records. Many people do not keep them. I don't. Some people are anal and others aren't

!!!

I would hire a marine diesel mechanic to go out with you on sea trial and put the engine and transmission thorugh its' paces. I don't think a surveyor on sea trial is necessary...BUT... there WILL be things that could not be surveyed and tested on land that you will need to insure are working besides the engine such as head pump, water pump, depth and speed instruments, auto pilot etc.
Don't assume anything works unless you have checked it or the surveyor has! Believe nothing the marina or broker says. The Citations are nice sailing boats...good luck with the rest of the process and don't stress too much!

captainrizzo · #4 (**permalink**) 03-02-2008

It doesn't have an outdrive, that is just on the "standard" agreement. This boat has a yanmar diesel with a straight drive.

billangiep · #5 (**permalink**) 03-02-2008

Isn't that thingy Chuckles has considered an out drive of sorts? That Staleto leg or whatever it's called?

sailingdog · #6 (**permalink**) 03-02-2008

The stilleto saildrive leg is not an outdrive. Besides, this guy is looking at an Irwin Citation, not a mutant trimaran wannabe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by billangiep

Isn't that thingy Chuckles has considered an out drive of sorts? That Staleto leg or whatever it's called?

captainrizzo · #7 (**permalink**) 03-02-2008

I think you may be referring to a sail drive, which kid of looks like an outdrive on a i/o power boat I think. This boat does not have that. It is just a drive shaft with a propeller attached (straight drive).

Riz

BarryL · #8 (**permalink**) 03-02-2008

Hello,

You should ask the surveyor what he inspects, and what his expertise is. The surveyors for Newport 28 and O'day 35 had different skills.

The guy that did my O'day was excellent at examining the rigging. He went up the rig (I grinded the winch, the broker tailed the line) and inspected everything. The surveyor of my Newport stated that he would not go up the rig, but would just inspect things he could reach. The Newport guy was fanatical about accessing every inch of the inside of the boat and drew diagrams of all the plumbing and electrical systems. He did a quick check of the engine and transmission, including measuring the temperature of the water intake and exhaust (to gauge heat exchanger efficiency), the temperature of each engine cylinder, transmission, etc. The guy that did the O'day checked the engine mounts, engine operation at full throttle, examined the oil and transmission fluid, thoroughly examined the engine, including noting that the belts need to be replaced, etc.

Both surveyors insisted on an 'on water' or 'sea trial as part of the survey. They wanted to make the sure that the prop was properly pitched for the boat, that the engine made good power, could drive the boat to hull speed, didn't smoke etc. They also tested the steering, electronics including autopilot, depth gauge, etc. Those things can't be tested on dry land.

I understand that you are nervous, I was before my first 'big boat' purchase. Having a good surveyor will make you feel a lot more confident. You should expect the surveyor to provide a long, detailed report with a list of items to be corrected. Hopefully, the list will be mostly simple things, like you need to update the flairs, add fire extinguishers, change the engine oil, things like that.

I would not suggest an engine survey unless the engine operation suggests a problem, like excessive smoke, not making proper power, difficult to start, etc.

Good luck,
Barry

captainrizzo · #9 (**permalink**) 03-03-2008

My hands are tied relative to the surveyor performing a sea trial. I will have to rely on the escrow to cover anything major with the engine. I think I will be hiring a diesel mechanic from my marina to go with me for the sea trial. Thank you to all of you that have responded so far! Someone once said "none of us is as smart as all of us." I certainly appreciate your counsel.

Riz

captainrizzo · #10 (**permalink**) 04-28-2008

Well, the survey went very well and the sea trial even better! I now own this Irwin 31 Citation! I sailed her from Saugatuck, MI to Holland, MI where she will be for the summer. Thank you to all that helped me with this purchase by answering several questions!

-Riz