How much more "gracefully" do high-quality older boats age than mass-production ones? - Page 2 - SailNet Community
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
post #11 of 25 Old 03-14-2008
Living & Cruising on Dana
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Isla Mujeres, Mexico
Posts: 574
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
Question
Is it fair to say that a well-maintained 1992 Oyster or Swan could equate to a 10 year younger European production boat when it comes to "remaining component life"? ....
Zanshin,
hate to say this but both Oyster & Swan are European production boats, but I think your theory is correct as they are the up market range one would assume that they would be better cared for and less banged about - but then again that's only a theory.
What I find when looking at eg. yachtworld.com is that European boats are relatively expensive on the US market compared to here, and vice versa US brands are very cheap compared to here.
European boats ain't as bad as most of the US boys here on this site make them, like with most things you get what you pay for, and if it's day, weekend & coastal cruising you're looking for, European boats are an option worth considering if the price is right where you are.

Your pleasure is my business !!!
________________________
Robby Barlow is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #12 of 25 Old 03-14-2008
Telstar 28
 
sailingdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 15
         
Comparing prices of US boats to those of EU-built boats, when the dollar is near an all time low... is a bit unrealistic.

Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
sailingdog is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #13 of 25 Old 03-14-2008
Living & Cruising on Dana
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Isla Mujeres, Mexico
Posts: 574
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 11
 
SD,
of course you're right, but I think that most second hand EU boats available on the US market, where bought there in $ in the first place, so devaluation should not really come into play.

Your pleasure is my business !!!
________________________
Robby Barlow is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #14 of 25 Old 03-14-2008
Seńor Member
 
TrueBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Narragansett Bay
Posts: 4,858
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 14
     
When I sold my EU boat a few weeks ago, I was the happy recipient of a selling price nearly 25% over what I paid for it - which at the time was the fair-market-price. Perhaps a reflection of how much quality-built European boats have increased in value in just 4 years.

True Blue . . .
sold the Nauticat
TrueBlue is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #15 of 25 Old 03-14-2008
Telstar 28
 
sailingdog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,290
Thanks: 0
Thanked 17 Times in 13 Posts
Rep Power: 15
         
Yes, but many people compare boat prices based on what a new one of the same make would cost... and as such, the devaluation of the dollar is going to have some impact on prices.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robby Barlow View Post
SD,
of course you're right, but I think that most second hand EU boats available on the US market, where bought there in $ in the first place, so devaluation should not really come into play.

Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
sailingdog is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #16 of 25 Old 03-15-2008
tdw
Super Fuzzy Moderator
 
tdw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Sydney Australia
Posts: 17,078
Thanks: 20
Thanked 125 Times in 116 Posts
Rep Power: 10
     
How's it going Zanshin ?

I have to admit I prefer used . Something about brand new boats just doesn't appeal which may be just an old fart thing of course.

Financially new has to be a bugger. Even a twelve month old boat from what I've seen, seems to represent better value than brand new.

On the other hand if I could afford to have a custom built job it would be mighty tempting.

Andrew B (Malö 39 Classic)

“Life is a trick, and you get one chance to learn it.”
― Terry Pratchett.
tdw is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #17 of 25 Old 03-15-2008
Senior Member
 
BarryL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 1,907
Thanks: 4
Thanked 57 Times in 52 Posts
Rep Power: 13
 
Hello,

What wears out as a boat ages? Things like engines, transmissions, sails, lines, rigging, etc. are all obvious answers. And, none of those things are made by the boat manufacturer. A Yanmar engine doesn't know if it is in a Catalina or a Swan (assuming that Swan uses Universal).

Other things may or may not be better on the Swan. Who makes the interior fabric? I'm sure the joinery is better, but that doesn't really wear out anyway. What about the galley? The Swan probably has better cabinets, counters, fixtures, etc., but if you don't care about that, then it's not so important.

Does the newer boat have gear or other features that were not commonly available when the older boat was made? Most boats today have swim platform, very few older boats do. What about a separate shower stall, or exterior shower?

Either way, you can't really lose.

Good luck with whatever you get.

Barry

Barry Lenoble
Deep Blue C, 2002 C&C 110
Mt. Sinai, NY

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
BarryL is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #18 of 25 Old 03-16-2008
Senior Member
 
Maine Sail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 6,229
Thanks: 20
Thanked 286 Times in 219 Posts
Rep Power: 17
       
Well

A few things to consider..

1) Quality construction - Swan, HR, Malo, Oyster, Hylas, Hinckley, Morris et. al are all FAR, FAR better built than any Grand Soliel, Beneteau or Jenneau. Having crawled around bilges, watched construction, sailed on and inspected close up many of the top quality vessels you mentioned I can assure you the top quality boats are not even in the same league. Comparing a Swan to Grand Soliel or Jenneau in terms of quality is like pitting Rosie O'Donnell against Bode Miller in a ski race there is NO comparison.

2) Reputation - The high end boats have earned their place and their reputations and it's reflected in their re-sale values. There are many Hinckley and Morris models that sell now for more than they did new and the same goes for Swan. I've never seen a Jenneau or Grand Soliel sell for anywhere near what it sold for new.

3) Previous Owners - Customers buying Swans or Oysters usually cut no corners on maintenance and up keep. I know this because when I was younger I worked for some of these types of owners and watched as the production "boatominiums" sat unused and un-maintained week after week and month after month other than for dock side dining.

The high end owners sought out quality, paid for it, and 9 out of 10 times maintained it to the utmost. One boat owner I worked for had a professional varnisher on his boat a minimum of one or two days per week all season long. I bet he spent 10k per season on varnish work on his beautiful Alden and that was just varnish! The typical 45+ foot production boat buyer is looking for a show piece for dock side dining and impressing the boys at the law office. They are usually cluless about maintenance and up keep other than the occasion bottom painting so buying newer is a wise choice.

For me, I would not even consider a Beneteau, Hunter, Jenneau, Bavaria, Grand Soliel or other production boat if I could afford an older higher quality boat such as a Hinckley, Swan, Halberg Rassy, Passport, Morris etc..

Having sailed many models of both top quality semi custom and full custom and regular production boats here is no question in my mind, at all that, I would buy the top quality vessel, even if it was older, over a newer production boat 10 time out of 10 every time!

If you can afford it buy a boat that has earned it's reputation!!

______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.


Maine Sail is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #19 of 25 Old 03-17-2008 Thread Starter
Senior Member
 
Zanshin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,322
Thanks: 0
Thanked 31 Times in 29 Posts
Rep Power: 10
 
Thanks all for the comments.
Halekai - What you have articulated is what I have been pondering; but as other posters have mentioned there are parts of a boat that will age regardless of how well they are maintained. I am trying to find that elusive dividing line in terms of age where a well-maintained top quality older boat will become more of a problem than a mass-production new(ish) boat.
My expectation will be that something major will only go wrong when at least 1000 miles from the nearest chandlery so just calling up on the phone and expecting a FedEx package the next day is out of the question.
I don't think that many would choose a 1985 Oyster over an identically sized 2006 Grand Soleil when both cost the same.


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Zanshin is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
post #20 of 25 Old 03-17-2008
Senior Member
 
Maine Sail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Maine Coast
Posts: 6,229
Thanks: 20
Thanked 286 Times in 219 Posts
Rep Power: 17
       
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zanshin View Post
I don't think that many would choose a 1985 Oyster over an identically sized 2006 Grand Soleil when both cost the same.

On the contrary I think the educated buyer would choose the Oyster even if it was an 85 over a 2006 Grand Soleil every day of the week.

Comparing parts and pieces such as a macerator or water pump gives me no piece of mind. I owned a brand new boat in 2005 and still had to replace parts even within the first two years such as a windlass motor, a water pump and a head pump.. Older boats usually have the bugs worked out new boats don't especially if they have been "lightly used".

I would not be caught dead buying a Grand Soleil over an Oyster if I had the opportunity. I'm of the opinion that steel, even galvanized steel, we've all seen older galvanized boat trailers, has NO place as the structural backbone and support for a 45+ foot fiberglass boat. This galvanized backbone is a COST savings approach ONLY. If they were really interested in quality, longevity and rigidity they'd build a boat the way Hinckley does with directional Kevlar & Carbon Fiber cloth and the SCRIMP process using only epoxy or vinylester resins. Grand Soleil makes NO mention of the type of cloth used or the resisns..??

Of course that would add a few hundred thousand dollars to the price of a Grand Soleil and with good reason...

I'll buy an old Steinway grand piano over a new Yamaha grand piano every day of the week and I'd still buy an 85 Oyster over a Grand Soleil every day of the week. There is a REASON why an older Oyster is the SAME price as a NEW Grand Soleil and that reason is LONG TERM quality..

Keep in mind these are just my opinions after having worked on and sailed many production boats and high end boats. A good survey by a KNOWLEDGEABLE surveyor will tell you more about a boat than what model year it is and you can't paint any boat with a broad brush, by the year it was built, only.. Parts are parts and they WILL fail on a 2006 model just as easily as they will on an well maintained and kept 85 model. Thinking parts won't fail on a newer boat is.... well.... perhaps ....delusional.

I had more parts fail on my brand new 2005 boat, in the two years I owned it (working the bugs out), than I have had fail on my well maintained and kept 1979 since I bought it.... My 1979 is a far better constructed vessel than my 2005 was and even at 29 years old and 40,000 plus km's under her keel she is showing less wear and tear in terms of structure, stress cracks and the like than my 2005 did after only two years....

I'd suggest sailing both a 1985 mass production boat and a 1985 high end boat, of similar length and displacements, in 25-30 knots before you even consider buying.. I'll say no more on this because I know the differences, and you will too, after a test sail on similarly aged boats of differing qualities...

______
-Maine Sail / CS-36T


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.




© Images In Posts Property of Compass Marine Inc.



Last edited by Maine Sail; 03-17-2008 at 07:48 AM.
Maine Sail is offline  
Quote Quick Reply Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.


User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page



Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First time sail boat buyer martinojon Boat Review and Purchase Forum 20 05-26-2014 09:16 PM
What would you buy for $100,000? swo104 Boat Review and Purchase Forum 130 08-30-2013 11:51 AM
Remembering Bill Tripp GoodOldBoat Good Old Boat 12 08-23-2013 09:47 PM
BUYING OLDER BOATS & MARKET TIMING halyardz Boat Review and Purchase Forum 6 02-12-2001 11:15 AM

Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome