Determining the fair price????

[GreatWhite]

Our offer was accepted! The cruising dream for our family seems close.
The boat is a 1983 Tayana 42. The owner has stated everything is in good condition, but the sails are original and so is all the rigging (running and standing.) Our offer is conditional on the survey and sea trial. There is quite a bit of equipement included but the deal was that for the offer price, everything should be in good condition.

After the sea trial there are scheduled further negotiations if neccessary.

What is reasonable to expect as far as a price reduction? I think the fact the sails and rigging are original means that what will be revealed is that some of the equipment might be less than 'good.' Is it better to negotiate after the sea trial before spending $800 on a survey? The owner has already dropped his price 15%, is it reasonable to expect more? Although the boat was sold as: 'everything is good' and 'it will survey well.'

Some say it is unreasonable to expect a fully out-fitted live aboard cruiser capable ocean cruising for less than $200,000. Am I being unrealistic to think it can be done for the price of an 1980s boat plus tax plus refitting for $160,000?

[chef2sail]

Great Boat.

IMHO the offer price you offered and what is accepted is the expected price you should pay unless there are major structural or engine problems reveled at the time of survey. The age of the sails should have been taken into account by your offer. Any equipment that works in an 1983 yr boat will be gravy and also should be considered before you made your offer. The time to dicker was before your fair offer. That serious offer should not be considered the starting of price for new negotiations of price.

As a side you probably will want to inspect and replace the rigging if it hasnt been done since new in 1983, and the sails too.

Dave

[Ilenart]

Tend to agree with chief2sail, unless were not aware of the condition of the rigging and sails when you made the offer???

With a boat over 20 years old that has had reasonable maintenance some items tend to be "good", some "very good" and some "not so good". You need to decide whether the "very good" items balance out the "not so good" items.

On whether $160,000 is reasonable, that depends on a detailed comparison with other Tayana 42's on the market. When I was looking at Tayana 42's the list price (last year) ranged from $129,000 to $208,000 with an average price of $157,000, so you are right near the average. However you really need to do a detailed analysis.

Also I think most of us would of done this analysis / comparison before you made the offer. You really are suppose to be restricted to items identified in the survey / sea trial. Guess it depends on how hard you wish to be in negotiating

[chucklesR]

White elephants two for a quarter is a good price, if you have a quarter and want two white elephants.

That's a old saw that basically means fair price is what you paid if you wanted versus needed to buy it.

[kd3pc]

Ilenart and the others...

price comparisons a year ago, may not hold much water in these times. There are many people who are asking the same price they had on the boat two years ago.

I just sold my Sabre 38, for a fair price but that was down some from what the boat was "worth" two years ago.

It is only worth what someone will pay. And as a seller you need to decide are you selling or testing the water.

If someone makes a "fair offer" subject to survery, then that is the price point that becomes real....minus any charges to the seller as a result of the sea trial/survey.

As a seller, I would not be happy with further major reductions from that "fair price" if it were in my asking/acceptance range.

Best of luck, and please get the survey. Spoke with a previous slip mate who purchased a Sabre 38 similar to mine, but with no survey. He faces a major $$$ in fixing the keel step (Sabre issue) and electronics repair/replacement. He "thought" they worked. Most don't and are 20+ years old.

All the best

dave

[JohnRPollard]

Great White,

A couple of points:

Usually these sorts of details are provided in the boat's listing. You would expect to see a description of the sail inventory and the age/condition of each sail. If this information was not provided up front, a prudent buyer should request it before making an offer.

If you weren't aware of the age of the sails/rigging, was this because you were misled, or merely neglected to investigate? If you were misled, then certainly a price adjustment could be warranted.

So the question boils down to "Were you aware of the age of the sails and rigging when you made the offer?" If you were, then your offer price should have considered the need to replace them. Given their age, before embarking on your "cruising dream", you should be planning to replace most of the working sail inventory as well as the standing and running rigging. It doesn't matter that the seller claims they are in "good condition" -- it would be imprudent to set off on a serious voyage with 25 year old sails and rigging (assuming they've had normal wear and tear).

If you simply neglected to investigate these details, or had the info but didn't asses it properly, then it's a little late to lower the offer. Of course, there may be all kinds of other reasons that crop up during survey/sea trial that might justify reducing the offer price.

P.S. In my experience, survey usually comes before sea trial. This is so you and the surveyor can inspect items in operation that were identified during survey as possibly being suspect. Is there some reason why you are planning the sea trial ahead of the survey?

[Capnblu]

After reading you question GreatWhite, I assume the seller dropped 15% off of his "original" asking price. So without knowing which Tayana you have offered on, it's kinda hard to determine the "Fair Price" in this market, since so few have traded hands within the last 2 years.

[camaraderie]

CruisingDad's father just bought a T42 and TEShannon has one so you may be able to get some insight from them.
As far as I am concerned the "ethics" of boat buying precludes asking for further reductions on the agreed price EXCEPT for new revelations found during survey and sea trial. Example...you BOUGHT the boat with 20 year old "serviceable sails". Should they NOT prove serviceable then you are entitled to an adjustment to either bring them to serviceable condition OR to buy other 20 year old sails in serviceable condition....not a new set of sails.

[GreatWhite]

Thanks for the replies. The sails were not on the boat when I viewed it, but I knew that they were orginal. After speaking with the seller he said they might need some resewing, not sure if that is negotiable or not. I agree any other negotiations should be based on significant findings from the survey. I believe the price is fair.

[JohnRPollard]

Originally Posted by GreatWhite

Thanks for the replies. The sails were not on the boat when I viewed it, but I knew that they were orginal. After speaking with the seller he said they might need some resewing, not sure if that is negotiable or not. I agree any other negotiations should be based on significant findings from the survey. I believe the price is fair.

I think that's a good approach. What you may be experiencing is a bit of anxiety/buyer's regret about the large purchase you are making. Perfectly normal.

You identified a good boat for your intended purpose, at what you consider a fair price. Focus on using the survey to confirm the boat is sound, then work through any issues that might crop up. Don't let minor stuff (all used boats have issues to varying degrees) obscure the over-all value. Fix the minor problems and move on.

If something major shows up early on during survey, go off-line with your surveyor and get his/her advice on whether you should proceed any further. Your purchase agreement should definitely give you the option to walk away if problems are found. That alone should reassure you as you move forward.

Best of luck, and "new baby" photos are always appreciated!!