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  #11  
Old 03-24-2008
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Jody-

I'm going to be a bit cynical and say that the reason that most brokers want at least 10% down, is that covers their commission, even if the rest of the payment bounces.

You can't really set a "fixed" discount off the asking price, since there are far too many variables involved. I know one boat at my friend's marina had an asking price about three-times what the boat should be selling for. His wife was making him sell the boat, and wanted to get what they had put into the boat out of the sale... not realistic...but that was the case. Boat sat on the market for a long time, with no one even looking at it... IIRC, it never sold, as it was destroyed in a marina fire about a year later.
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  #12  
Old 03-24-2008
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xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about xort has a spectacular aura about
boat us also has a valuation service. very informative. surf their website.
I have seen brokered boats NOT listed on yachtworld but on other websites. Surf all the for sale websites.
Some sellers sign an exclusive agreement meaning the broker gets a commision no matter. But other brokers will allow sellers to find their own buyer and avoid all commission!
Here is one site that has a lot of by-owner listings Sailboat Listings - sailboats for sale

Also surf the specific boat owner group websites. If the boat is fairly popular it will have an owners group and probably have a for sale by owner section.
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FWIW, I don't think any of the above brokers were BUYER brokers...if Jody means the term as used int he real estate business. Here is wikipedia's definition:"
Buyer brokerage (or Buyer agency as it is also known) is the practice of real estate brokers (and their agents) in the United States and Canada representing a buyer in a real estate transaction rather than, by default, representing the seller either directly or as a sub-agent. In the United Kingdom the most common term to describe agent is Buying agent."

I personally have never heard of a real BUYER broker in the yacht sale business, doesn't mean there is no such, but none that I have heard of. In a perusal of the public sections of YBAA : Yacht Brokers Association of America I find no reference to a BUYER broker, the two broker roles outlined in their materials are the selling broker and the co-broker.

Now as a buyer I have used the services of a broker in search of a boat...someone I got to know well and was very knowledgeable. He helped me find a nice boat listed by another broker, and the standard YBAA sales agreement makes it very explicit that the guy I had worked with, was an agent of the seller, and would be paid by the seller.

As I have said before, I think it extremely wise to find and use a capable broker to find the right boat, unless you consider the time, effort and cost for looking at a lot of toad boats before finding a gem part of the fun of boating. I don't think using a broker costs a the buyer anything, it costs the selling broker half the commission..but he expects that, its part of his business model.

As to your last questions. It is very unlikely any seller will let of of a boat without full payment, it would be a legal and financial mess.

You can offer whaterver you want, the trick it you need to know enough about what the boat SHOULD be worth so that you avoid paying more than its worth, if you can pay less than you think it is worth, you should be thrilled. If you pay what you think its worth, then you should be happy you have a new boat at a fair price. I sold my last two boats at my asking prices to the first buyers who looked at them.
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Last edited by sailingfool; 03-24-2008 at 10:18 PM.
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  #14  
Old 03-24-2008
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Jody,

There is a local fellow at Gig harbor yacht sales, Wayne, great guy, sails, cruises, belongs on a local email list, sold us our boat, altho have to admit, he was the selling agent too! A number of folks on the email list have used him for both a buying and selling agent. A straight shooter. If you need a number, Email me and I can get it for you.

One thing to remember tho. If you start to negotiate with a selling agent, then that does not work, bring in "joe buyer rep" there will be NO commission offered to your new agent. So if you are going to use a BB, get and use one upfront!

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Old 03-24-2008
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I feel your pain, amigo

Jody,

I know how you feel all too well. There's a lot of good advice above.

As far as using your own broker, it's pretty much dependent on how much work you want to delegate and how much you want to do yourself. As the Fool has wisely stated, a broker can weed and cull through a whole lot of boats that are NO WHERE NEAR as good as they look in a listing. I've found recently that a bunch of the photos used are -- ahem -- not quite recent or representatve of the actual condition of the boats in question.

As far as trying to zero in on an offer price, that's a bit of a challenge. It's true that "your" broker can pull a "sold boat" report off of BoatWizard -- which is a firewalled part of the YachtWorld database. However, don't forget that surveyors also use this same service. If you can, spend some time on the phone with a trusted surveyor or two and see if they can't steer you in the right direction.

Keep in mind that some owners may not be willing to part with their baby for a price as paltry as fair market value -- don't take it personally, just keep looking!

Best of luck,
PF
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blt2ski View Post
.... A number of folks on the email list have used him for both a buying and selling agent. A straight shooter. If you need a number, Email me and I can get it for you....marty
Marty,
are you suggesting the broker acted as a "buying agent" as referenced in the Wikipedia definition of buyer broker above, or was he a co-broker...? You can clarify that by explaining who paid him for the services he provided...

"Buyer" broker should mean something other than the seller's agent paid by the seller for introducing the buyer to the selling broker, still not a buyer broker...see the definition. The subject of a buyer broker comes up every so often, it would be nice to get a clean answer.
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  #17  
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hmmmmm.

With what you just described, he was probably a co broker more than anything. But in all honesty, I do not know whom paid him, would assume the seller. Then in that sense, no matter whom you use, the broker is representing the seller as such, there would be no such thing as a buyers agent/broker! IMHO

As he made a statement the other day in an email. He did say, what I was trying to say, and another broker has said the same thing, If Jody does come to them first, saying not represented, negotiates, then tries to bring in another broker, that broker is SOL as far as splitting the commission!

i would assume if I hired "Wayne" to negotiate a price on aboat etc, he would assume and hope he would stick up for my needs, even tho, usually, the seller pays the commissions when it comes time to figure out prices etc.

Some of the folks as I say, used him to sell there boats, then he helped them buy from another brokerage! If I was buying say a boat on the east coast, I would prefer to use Wayne or equal to negotiate a visit etc, then he could also help me find local places to transport the boat to, to fit out etc. Even if this fee cost me something as a buyer to him, more than what would be normal commission. Let him spend and get paid to do what he knows best.

Not sure if I am answering the question, or not, but best as I can. The only other way to truly get an answer to this, is contact a potential broker, and see how they will work, hopefully for you!


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  #18  
Old 03-24-2008
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Xort - BoatUS told me that my Passport 40 was worth $100k-$110k. The last two Passport 40's on the market sold for north of $140k and they didn't have the refit mine does. I'm not sure where BoatUS gets its "valuation" but it seems pretty far off.

With regards to "Half now, half in 60 days" are you talking about getting the boat in between? If not, you can probably work something out in today's market - especially during the Winter (so not much longer). If you want the boat after paying for the first half, I'd say it's probably an impossibility, but that's just an assumption. With regards to bids, start as low as you want and the seller will give you a counteroffer. On my Passport 40, I got it for about $15k under the asking price. Our first bid on a Hallberg-Rassy 53 we were thinking of was almost $100k under the asking price (about 15% under asking).
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  #19  
Old 03-25-2008
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Quote:
And lastly - what resources do you use for finding boats for sale by owner. 99% of ads seem to be brokered....(I already use Craigslist, Yachtworld, and BoatTrader...)
I think that the best method is to go to marinas and clubs. Leave an advertisement on the bulletin boards, clearly stating what you are looking for and how much you are willing to spend. There are people out there who would sell their boats if it was easy and they didn't have to deal with brokers.

Also, identify the kinds of boats that you are interested in and log on to the owner's association websites. There are almost always boats offered for sale there. Note that the prices listed tend to be on the high side, as this is usually the first place that people will offer their boat for sale, and they are usually optimistic at the beginning of the process.

Quote:
Have any of you negotiated a deal where you paid cash and did 1/2 on initial purchase and 1/2 60 days later?
No. Have you ever received title to a house wihtout paying the entire purchase price ? That said, it is standard practise that you will put down a deposit, in escrow, arrange your survey(s), and then either complete the sale, renegotiate the price, or back out of the deal depending on the surveyor's report.
Quote:
How do you negotiate a price initially without survey on higher priced boats? Say you have one for 64K is it unreasonable to start at 45 or 50K as initial bid (Anyone with success on that?")
If your vendor is selling the boat through a broker, ask the broker to provide you with a 12 month sales history of like and similar boats in your region. If they won't give you that, they are probably trying to get more than market value for it. I think that it's a good idea to open with as low a figure as you can without feeling embarassed. Do your research - look at what smilar boats are listed for on Yachtworld, etc. and then offer about 50 to 60% of that. In this market - you might even be able to offer 35% of asking...you never know until you try.

Don't ever buy a boat without a survey, and make sure that your sales contracts include the right to renegotiate your purchase price based on surveyor's report. If the broker won't co-operate - walk away.

Note: I have heard about honest brokers but have never encountered one.

Last edited by Sailormann; 03-25-2008 at 01:40 AM.
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Old 03-25-2008
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Thanks for all the insight. I have always bought boats for sale by owner, in which case NADA values were usually the guide (for both parties). However, now that I am infinitely more knowledgeable about the systems, problems, and relative costs to to fix or add-on options that should be onboard the range of boats...I can understand why boat values reflect more of a 'open market' approach.

One of the things I am doing now is creating spreadsheets that compare stuff like:

Tiller vs Wheel Steering
Automatic pilots
Radar
Instruments
etc...
Based on year, condition, installed etc...


Depending on the age of the boat, I am calculating what the perceived value is to me. For the most part I look at a boat having changed hands a minimum of 3 times, and of those three times (33%), a cruiser boat owner would of been upgraded beyond stock at sometime in its 20 years (all pre-1990 vessels), and that becomes part of the criteria. This I use to compare to what other vessels have and the deviation in price....not truly scientific as I hate math but...looking at it on paper helps narrow down the right boat and what I need to add if I were to buy it etc...

Interestingly enough I thought I could of found a perfect fit this evening, a 40 footer for around 43K. However, the boat looked worse than what G's neighbors boat did after that young man's attempted remodel. Ie: No Electric, no batteries, no lights, cabinets just ripped out, engine never run, etc...

Since it was a friend that referred me to friend selling it... Kinda like as SD stated - the one partner wanted a little some extra over what hubby paid for not realizing that hubby thought 40K for a fixer upper was doable because he had the cash (and she made it clear she was the negotiator as she wants the boat gone )...I told my friend that I would offer 12K for it - but only to save them expense of doling out another 10K for moorage this year...I do not expect a offer back as its not worth any higher IMHO...

I am going to hold off on a Buyer broker (technically known as the co-broker (thanks for legal definition most sites call them buyer broker)...I have some time for this and since I do not have a real job I can afford drive around and look at things...

And SD I realize 10% if I make serious offer, and the 1/2 split option, held in escrow - allows me negotiating power to a certain extent to get more boat for my money.


ie: I will not be financing so having the two options drawn up - the one with the lower cash upfront will be more of appeal one would hope. I have done this process on RV purchases both ways as the contract is drawn up to reflect said agreement and if not met then seller keeps the money...I have done that with real estate as well...I would think if a seller has paid in full their note - then it is an option to get it off the market with money in hand it can be an attractive solution versus waiting for buyer financing etc...Additionally if I find a boat a bit higher in cost that meets the needs I have flexibility financially and maybe able to get more boat for the money ..but my intent is all cash buyout if and where possible... and again - nothing but time on my side.

I realized when I bought my first - I could of gotten a better boat for what I paid. This time out though I am looking for the right one and not a training / its cheap enough to buy that if I hate sailing vessel...

Again thanks - very insightful comments....and re-formulating my procedures / processes to consider as I learn more....

Its been eye opening
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