Yo, new to sailing and need a boat

[cberkholtz]

First off I'm looking to buy an older boat no sooner then the first week of July. Ive got 18k CND to spend and am currently unemployed, so I will need to keep a couple grand for living expenses(im cheap) and repair costs. Thats it for the simple part, the rest might be a bit unusual, so I would like some input. I studied as a computer scientist and work as an iron worker in alberta. I am 24. My plan is to spend a chunk of this money on a boat that I can work on and live on. Then return to Alberta to work to complete the financing of the boat, or work in vancouver(i can save 4x as much working in alberta as an iron worker vs vancouver as a computer scientist in the same number of days). I don't own a home or have any sort of liabilities(no girlfriend, minimal student loans), and I travel light. I can get many of the tools I will need from family, but all of my family is in alberta so I'll have to rent a place in vancouver. I used to live on Vancouver Island when my father was a fisherman, which is where I learned about boating, navigation etc, but the closest I've been to controlling a sail is flying a small kite.

I've spent the last few months or so reading brokerage listings, yatchworld and I even flew out to vancouver just to check the boats out and see what kind of options I had there for renting and employment. I also spent a fair bit of time at local library's and the Vancouver library reading about living aboard, sailing, boat repair, surveying, and seaworthyness. I also read about 50 sailing magazines that I got for cheap/free. Eventually I would like to take my new home across the pacific, I had a great time traveling in thailand and japan a few years ago. I think it would be even better if I could go there and bring my home with me.

So the requirements I have come up with are as fallows:

28'-33', up to36' would be fine but seem out of my price range
fiberglass hull, no core, minor blistering, I could deal with sweating in van but delamination and longevity of a core would be a problem

elongated fin keel to full keel, though any fixed non bilge keel may do
pref externally mounted ballast
pref skeg
small cockpit
tiller, I haven't actually used one but it seems allot smarter then a wheel for this size
sloop/cutter rigged, hopefully with rigging running aft, I would expect to be single handing much of the time but who knows
6'2"+ head room, I am 6'2"
I would like two births aft of the mast, I would probably end up chopping up a vbirth for extra storage. or maybe even an air tight compartment.
No windlass or windlass on its last leg is fine, I'm in shape, a chain stop would be fine
I am a computer scientist so I would expect to redo allot of the electronics, wireing and lighting(install leds, solar panels, batteries, computer/s) and new running lights. I would not let myself get run over for a couple hundred bucks in lights or power.

refrigeration and water purification would be unnecessary
I would be willing to buy the boat in the states and sail/motor it up, however since I have no sailing experience this may be dubious to go long distances up the coast. Also it would be a pain to drive to cal sail back then fetch my car. Unless anyone wants to trade a boat for a 2002 dodge neon in part.

Also I would consider putting in an electric engine. It seems like a great idea to me, greater durability, and improved ballast positioning with batteries and regeneration under sail. The only reasons I see for diesel are for the impatient, the unable to conserve, and those who think having the ability to motor 1000km is safer then having poorer ballast, explosives on board, and less reliability.

9'-10' beam, edge on the smaller side
I like a more classical look, with smaller windows and medium to short overhangs.
I would prefer a dark coloured hull with a white top, no need for a teak deck or anything fancy like that.

full range of sails would be nice
good running/standing gear, I've read mixed things about galvanized gear, though I naturally gravitate to it, its used on fishing boats, and commercial sites, stainless is not. But most sailboats have stainless...

I would not want to deal with replacing a mast.. but I would consider it. oh and keel stepped

I'm sure I'd do fine with some smallish single speed hand winches
self steering and solar panels would be a bonus



I am expecting to spend between $1000-$15000, initially, but I might consider putting it off for a while if it greatly improves the mechanical or hull nature of the boat. But I would rather be working on a boat then Ironworking.

well.. that was longer then I was expecting, I appreciate anyone who reads to this far and takes the time to respond.

Chris

[sailingdog]

28'-33', up to36' would be fine but seem out of my price range
fiberglass hull, no core, minor blistering, I could deal with sweating in van but delamination and longevity of a core would be a problem

You'd be better off concentrating on the <30' boats with the kind of budget and financial constraints you have mentioned. Most of the larger boats will be in need of some fairly serious work, where a <30' you can probably get in fairly good shape for that budget. Also, the dock/mooring fees are going to be lower on a smaller boat, as will many of the on-going maintenance type costs.

elongated fin keel to full keel, though any fixed non bilge keel may do

That leaves a pretty big range of boats to consider. What boats do you have experience on? If none or very few, it would probably be wise to get some experience on various boats to see what kind of boats you really want/like.

pref externally mounted ballast

Externally mounted ballast means that you have keel bolts to inspect. In some ways this can be more of a problem than an encapsulated ballast setup.

pref skeg

Good idea, especially if you're planning on cruising long distances. What are your eventual sailing plans???

small cockpit

Generally, this is a feature of bluewater cruising boats, more so than coastal cruisers or daysailers.

tiller, I haven't actually used one but it seems allot smarter then a wheel for this size

Wheels in boats under 35' are pretty unusual.

sloop/cutter rigged, hopefully with rigging running aft, I would expect to be single handing much of the time but who knows

Most smaller boats are sloop-rigged but not many will have the running rig led aft. Doing it yourself is not a major deal. I'm in the middle of doing this on my boat right now.

6'2"+ head room, I am 6'2"

While standing headroom would be nice, I don't think it is anywhere near as important as having a berth that you can lie down in....Most of the time, when you're down below, you're sitting anyways. I know a couple that sails a boat with less than 5' of headroom, since it is a flush deck boat. Last season, their first owning it....they put over 2000 nm on it.

I would like two births aft of the mast, I would probably end up chopping up a vbirth for extra storage. or maybe even an air tight compartment.

This usually isn't a problem.

No windlass or windlass on its last leg is fine, I'm in shape, a chain stop would be fine

Windlasses on boats <35' are rare.

I am a computer scientist so I would expect to redo allot of the electronics, wireing and lighting(install leds, solar panels, batteries, computer/s) and new running lights. I would not let myself get run over for a couple hundred bucks in lights or power.

Don't underestimate how much it will cost to re-do the electronics and electrical system. Copper has gone up in price a lot recently and marine-grade wiring is not cheap.

refrigeration and water purification would be unnecessary

I've never seen water purification on a small sailboat. If you're talking reverse osmosis water making, that's fairly rare, but purification isn't generally found on boats as a rule.

I would be willing to buy the boat in the states and sail/motor it up, however since I have no sailing experience this may be dubious to go long distances up the coast. Also it would be a pain to drive to cal sail back then fetch my car. Unless anyone wants to trade a boat for a 2002 dodge neon in part.

Given the economy, buying in the US might make more sense financially. You'd also have a larger selection of boats to choose from.

Also I would consider putting in an electric engine. It seems like a great idea to me, greater durability, and improved ballast positioning with batteries and regeneration under sail. The only reasons I see for diesel are for the impatient, the unable to conserve, and those who think having the ability to motor 1000km is safer then having poorer ballast, explosives on board, and less reliability.

Electric motors on small sailboats are a pretty stupid idea IMHO. The amount of weight in batteries you need to make them feasible is ludicrous. Also, the reliability of an electric motor-based propulsion system isn't very high on small sailboats, which tend to be pretty wet beasties. The ability to motor against heavy wind and seas is often the difference between living and dying...so don't discount a good reliable diesel inboard.

9'-10' beam, edge on the smaller side
I like a more classical look, with smaller windows and medium to short overhangs.

Few boats in your size range, with the criteria of a smaller cockpit are going to be that beamy. The average beam would be more like 8-9'.

I would prefer a dark coloured hull with a white top, no need for a teak deck or anything fancy like that.

The less external wood work you have the better off you are IMHO. I prefer sailing to varnishing.

full range of sails would be nice
good running/standing gear, I've read mixed things about galvanized gear, though I naturally gravitate to it, its used on fishing boats, and commercial sites, stainless is not. But most sailboats have stainless...

Actually, bronze is probably better than stainless steel. However, it is not as common.

I would not want to deal with replacing a mast.. but I would consider it. oh and keel stepped

Bad idea... if the mast is in bad shape—the replacement costs can often exceed the value of a small sailboat. Keel-stepped masts are more of a PITA than deck-stepped masts IMHO, and not particularly any better in any significant way.

I'm sure I'd do fine with some smallish single speed hand winches
self steering and solar panels would be a bonus

Again, the winch size depends on the boat. My boat has rather larger winches than most 28' boats, but that is because it is a multi-hull and generates higher forces given the same sail area than a monohull, since it doesn't heel. Self-steering and solar panels would be unusual in a boat that small—unless it were specifically equipped for long-distance bluewater cruising. Most aren't, and the ones that would be are going to be far above your budget.

BTW, as a general rule, spending a bit more money to get a boat that is in better shape and more well equipped than the same boat in "fixer-upper" condition is generally far less expensive in both money and time. For example, if you saw two Alberg 30s, one of the boats that probably meets most of your criteria, and one was selling for $6,000—and needed repairs to the rigging, engine and electrical system, and the other was selling for $10,000 and didn't require any repairs to the rigging, engine or electrical system, it would probably cost far more than $4,000 to bring the first boat up to the shape of the second boat.

Sailboat hardware is very expensive. A single winch can be as much as $1000 for a boat the size you're talking about. Even if you do the repairs yourself, the materials are far more expensive than you'd think and the amount of time and money any repair will cost will be three times what you estimate it to be as a general rule. Paying someone to do the repairs will often quadruple the cost... since they will often come in over their estimate, and you're often paying them $80+ per hour for their time.

[arenuiwaka]

I don't think you are alowed to say yo in sailing unless it is followed by ho Your price range is not realistic at all, I am not trying to be a jerk but I am actually cruising and its is not as cheap as you think it is. To have your boat ready to cross the pacific will cost alot of money expecially since you don't know what you are doing. So you will buy things you think you need but you don't and later you will need things you didn't get earlier and pay a ton in shipping. My boat is compleatly self-sufficiant fo electricity. I use solar and wind and am very conservative. I have out boards on my wharram cat and they don't charge the batteries b/c they have their own. Evan though I have gone 6 months with no gen charging or shore power it cost a SH&T LOAD. everything from regulators to connectors and evan a solar oven( which I love). I also have a dry hull which helps in power conservation, but My set up would run 7k if you do it yourself. It probably wouldn't support a boat with a bilge and a microwave. Electric motors have come a long way but batteries still suck. I always dream of a electric driven boat but for the weight it is not compleatly feasable exspeacilly in you price range. If you are dead set look into having a smaller bank and a ggenset for the engine. This stuff is in my feild and it can be done but with sacrifices and mulla. I am not trying to be a downer but jumping the pacific is a big deal I plan to do it next year but there is alot of preparing and knowlege needed to do it safely. I would try and sail with somone on passage before buying a boat, you might love it and learn alot or you might save yourself some money. The offshore sailing shcools are supposed to be good and alot of them use swans. You will have to have self steering! and if you are trying to be solar powered say good bye to auto I only have it for back up I use my Windpilot wind vane or I hand steer and hand steering for 15 hours in bad weather sucks! the windpilot steers in all but the worst weather or down wind. I think you have a good Idea not the most realistic view about sailing and its finances but after going to a cruising or off shore school you would be better prepaired. Look at the Flicka that is my favorite pocket cruiser. Please don't take this post badly. I have run out of kitty 5 months early jsut from repairs and outfitting I don't ever evan stay at marinas. I wish I would of been more realistic about budget and now I am selling my boat to get somthing smaller and cheaper. Although buying a boat in the states might be cheaper most boats in Vancouver are pretty we ready to take on the world just b/c the PNW is so harsh. well good luck and if you find a 100k my boat is for sale JK.

[arenuiwaka]

Sorry for the horrible grammar and spelling I forgot to spell check!

[arbarnhart]

Originally Posted by sailingdog

Electric motors on small sailboats are a pretty stupid idea IMHO. The amount of weight in batteries you need to make them feasible is ludicrous. Also, the reliability of an electric motor-based propulsion system isn't very high on small sailboats, which tend to be pretty wet beasties. The ability to motor against heavy wind and seas is often the difference between living and dying...so don't discount a good reliable diesel inboard.

I guess a lot depends on the purpose and size of the boat and the motor. If the motor will get infrequent use to get from the slip to the channel and back and most sailing will be pleasure boating where you can change your itenerary to better fit prevailing winds, an electric could be a good choice. You will have plenty of time to slowly charge the battery or batteries between uses.

Elco seems to think it is very workable, but then they sell motors and batteries:

Elco Inboard Electric Drives, clean, quiet, efficient, dependable

I just got rid of a stinking little outboard that I tinkered with a lot to keep running. I had an electric in my attic that I have not used in years that appears to work fine. However, if it fails I will not know how to tinker with it.

[cberkholtz]

To be clear, I'm not expecting to have an open ocean worthy boat for 15k, I am looking for something I can live on periodically for the next year and prepare it. I can save about 8k a month working in alberta, so I'm sure it wont take more then a few months to pay for a boat. I dont think apprentice Ironworkers are treated as well anywhere in the world as in fort mcmurray alberta. I will take my time, learn to sail my boat and learn what it needs. I think I have a fairly good idea of what is required just because I have lived on my dads 30' planning hulled fishing boat during the summers for 7 years. That said I didn't realize crossing the pacific was at all feasible until recently. But I know what its like to be in rough weather, or sweeped away by the current, I would feel vary nervous about going over ripple rock in any sailboat, in any tide. The current and an aggressive autopilot busted our ruder there.
I would be doing most of the work myself. Some people look at it as, "I get paid $30 an hour and this refit will take me 1000 hours, therefor it costs me 30000", which is fine, but I see it as training, experience and fun. So I'd rather spend my time then my money. I realize that often a fixer-upper ends up costing more in the long run, but if you survey it accurately you end up with something more personal for not much additional cost. And this is what I want, my requirements are not typical, and finding a boat that meets my needs perfectly isn't going to happen.

sailingdog, because I plan on living on the boat 30' seems like a pretty good size to me, if I can't get something that is at least 28' for 15k then a may as well just work a few months until I can afford it. But from what I've seen on yachtworld and other places that shouldn't be a problem. And because I would eventually like to cruise in Asia and beyond, a fin keel is almost out of the question. I do like speed though, and I think it is a matter of safety as well on the open ocean so elongated fin and skeg would do, I think. A full keel would of course be fine, it would be easy to steer, ride rough weather well, protect the ruder, I could use tidal ways easier, etc.

As for the electric engine thing, the only reason I mention it is because, if the engine were aging, I might be ok with it because I would consider replacing it with an electric. A good friend of mine worked on the University of Calgary solar car, so I have some idea what it is capable of. Many of the cruisers I have read in magazines say they use very little fuel, there was even one guy who had been cruising on a 30' boat for years without a motor. He just sculled in and out of ports. You would need some serious gahonas to try that in some of the anchorages around vancouver island though. There are lots of ways to die on a leeward shore, if I have to put my life in the hands solely in a temperamental old diesel then I shouldn't be sailing. If you have weather reports, gps, a storm jib, vhf and a sea anchor/drogue you should be fine without a diesel. That said, anyone can make mistakes, and a diesel could save my ass. I would definitively want a diesel until I was comfortable sailing.

[cberkholtz]

the elco motors are allot more expensive then what I was thinking of;

robotmarketplace.com/products/ETK-ETEKBL250.html
^ sailnet wont let me post proper links yet

$1500 and you get a controller(that can work as a charger), 6hp motor which you could run at 15hp for 30sec, which would be fantastic for docking, anchoring or evasive maneuvers. I would expect a complete system to cost 7-10k with 400w of solar panel and only get you 3-4 hours at hull speed on a 30' boat, but it would get you a long ways at 3 knots.

[arbarnhart]

Originally Posted by cberkholtz

As for the electric engine thing, the only reason I mention it is because, if the engine were aging, I might be ok with it because I would consider replacing it with an electric. A good friend of mine worked on the University of Calgary solar car, so I have some idea what it is capable of. Many of the cruisers I have read in magazines say they use very little fuel, there was even one guy who had been cruising on a 30' boat for years without a motor. He just sculled in and out of ports. You would need some serious gahonas to try that in some of the anchorages around vancouver island though. There are lots of ways to die on a leeward shore, if I have to put my life in the hands solely in a temperamental old diesel then I shouldn't be sailing. If you have weather reports, gps, a storm jib, vhf and a sea anchor/drogue you should be fine without a diesel. That said, anyone can make mistakes, and a diesel could save my ass. I would definitively want a diesel until I was comfortable sailing.

You have to take my input on this with a grain of salt as I come from the trailer sailor world. We like to dream of small boats doing big voyages, and many have, but mostly it's day sailing and maybe an overnight now and then or multi-day on very rare occassions. I have only had my current boat for about a year. Before that, all my sailboats were dinghy types and none had a motor. My current boat has not had a reliable motor most of the time. So I am used to depending on wind only to move a sailboat. But I am also used to boats where grounding is a nuisance, not a catastrophe. I have had several fishing boats with gas and electric outboards in fresh water and found electric motors to be much more reliable than gas with respect to moving the boat within their capacity if you had fuel/power. But an electric is not good for moving far or fast. However, I would maintain that for a large percentage of sailboats, you rarely need to. There are some significant tradeoffs. If the wind dies and you are day sailing, you will be late for dinner. If you push the limits with an electric, you can kill your batteries and there will be no savings.

[chucklesR]

I believe the electric vs diesel power option has been discussed ad nauseum else where on sailnet, a search will find the pertinent threads. Granted technology is evolving, but the threads are recent.
Of interest, while in portugal recently I caught a program on t.v. about a univeristy sponsored 'race' of solar boats. These were canoes essentially that had 40 or so sq ft of solar panels, custom as heck. Top speed? 3.5 knts.

Even Lagoon now offers a dual diesel 75 hp option on it's 'ground breaking' new 42; seems the hybrids just aren't making it in the real world with out leading edge technology becoming bleeding wallet syndrome.

30 seconds at full speed doesn't pull you off any lee shore.

Not ready for the market certainly not ready for prime time., I second SD and many others.

[cberkholtz]

I did get side tracked, and your right they are nowhere near mainstream.