newbies looking for boat

[seagypsies]

We are a newly married couple looking to sail the world the next few years, but have little experience with sailboats. We are thinking 46 - 55 ft range size and looking for all suggestions and accessories needed to make it a world cruiser. Budget is under 165k. What are the most important feature to look for?

[sailingdog]

I think you need to take a serious look at your budget, and revise the numbers for the boat down significantly. You'll be lucky to get a 40' boat in good shape that is capable of bluewater cruising for what you've got budgeted and still have enough left over for the necessary refitting, upgrading and repairing that will inevitably be necessary.

People have circumnavigated and cruised long distances in much smaller boats. Smaller boats have the added benefits of being less expensive to buy, own and maintain, as well as often being far simpler and easier to repair. On that note, I'd also recommend you get Don Casey, et al's "Sensible Cruising" and Larry and Lin Pardey's "The Capable Cruiser" and "The Cost-Conscious Cruiser".

Also, given that you have little sailing experience, I would highly recommend that you get some sailing time in before biting the bullet on this. Do a couple of week long charters to see if you can stand being on a boat for extended periods of time.

I would also recommend you spend some money on taking the ASA 101, 103, 104 and 105 courses as a minimum. It would be far better, IMHO, if you took the courses separately, as you both should really have the knowledge and skills to singlehand a sailboat, even though you're sailing as a couple. Much of the time spent cruising as a couple is effectively singlehanding a boat, since one of you may be down below sleeping, cooking, etc.

There are a lot of different boats that will allow you to sail around the world. If you look at the thread located HERE, you will see some of the boats that would work.

I would recommend you get John Vigor's book, "The Seaworthy Offshore Sailboat: A Guide to Essential Features, Handling and Gear", and Beth Leonard's "The Voyager's Handbook" as two other good books to start with.

I would also like to point out that the on-going maintenance costs for a boat basically triple with every 10' in length for cruising sailboats. A 40' boat will cost three-times what a 30' sailboat costs to maintain. A 50' sailboat will cost NINE times what a 30' sailboat costs to maintain.

Also, many costs related to docking, hauling and maintaining a sailboat are based on the length of the boat.

Furthermore, a 50' boat isn't 66% larger than a 30' sailboat. It is more like 366% larger, since a boat gains length, beam and depth.

It would help to know what skills and boating experience you both have. Just remember, unless you're independently wealthy, owning a cruising sailboat generally means you have to do a lot of the work yourself or pay marina rates to get it done. If you're out sailing around the world, in many places you will be the only person that can repair the boat. At sea—there are no electricians, plumbers, diesel mechanics, or fiberglass composite technicians... just you and what ever skills you bring to the boat.



BTW, I would highly recommend you read the post in my signature, since it will help you get the most out of your time on sailnet. Welcome to the asylum.

[wescarroll]

Read a lot from many different sources before you buy. Don't "fall in love" with the first or fourth or what ever boat, make the boat make you buy it. By this I mean look a lot, if a given boat is sold out from under you, so what, another will take it's place. Look at a lot of boats read a lot of books and magazines and do not be in a hurry. Many deals will appear to be too good to be true, especially with a broker near, nearly all will be too good to be true. I cannot emphisize enough TAKE YOUR TIME, do research and ask a lot of questions. There are a lot of boats for sale out there, with the price you are talking you could get eny where from a newer hunter to an older swan, look a lot, itis one of the best, most fun parts of boat buying.

[sailingdog]

one other point:

always get a survey of the boat, the engine and the rigging.

[JohnRPollard]

Originally Posted by seagypsies

We are a newly married couple looking to sail the world the next few years, but have little experience with sailboats. We are thinking 46 - 55 ft range size and looking for all suggestions and accessories needed to make it a world cruiser. Budget is under 165k. What are the most important feature to look for?

Seagypsies,

When you say "have little experience with sailboats", does this also mean that you have little sailing experience? If so, you probably want to consider a two-stage boat ownership plan, where you purchase a more modest/manageable 28-35 footer on which you would build experience. It would be best to do this in conjunction with taking sailing lessons.

I will also reiterate the earlier point about your unrealistic budget for the size boat you want. If you could find a decent, truly bluewater capable boat in that size range at that price, it will probably be an older design in need of significant re-fit. Re-fitting an older boat of that size could easily run you $50-75-???K, and that's assuming you don't need any new sails (unlikely, and very $$).

There are some newer designs, not purpose-built bluewater boats, in which some brave folks are happily sailing across oceans. You could look at some of the mid-to-upper forty foot Beneteaus, Catalinas, Jeanneaus, etc. But you'd have to evaluate whether the design features of that style boat are adequate for the sort of voyage you intend. Without a bit of experience, it may be challenging for you to discern the differences in the design and construction techniques of various boats, or even to know what it is you require for your voyage.

As you can see there are a lot of variables, and without knowing more about your plans and experience level, it's hard to give specific advice regarding suitable boats. More info would be helpful.

P.S. Welcome to Sailnet, and Sailing!

[artbyjody]

Please, actually - do some research here. This forum (and site) is chocked full of horror stories, great happy endings, and learning experiences. I taught myself how to sail, other went through courses but allocating 100+K to a boat of the dreams without actually knowing it is a hobby (yes its a hobby - it doesn't become a lifestyle until after you decide its for you)...

If you do it on the whim, and want to teach yourself - you want to then limit the investment to 10-20K (throwaway money). If you're gonna throw 100K - then you better have like been on enough boats and helped with maintenance, upgrades, and the likes...

I started 3 years ago with a C-27, paid in cash for around 10K. After 3 years, got the gist of it and didn't mind my wallett being depleted each summer - then upgraded, to a boat that fit me - because nothing is worse than investing a ton of money into something that ultimately you have no interest in what the ultimate goal of the vessel is about....

[Cruisingdreamspress]

Seagypsies,

Lots of good advice here, especially from John R. Pollard when he recommends purchasing a 28 to 35 footer as the best way to introduce yourself to sailing and cruising. This is the only way I know that a couple can begin to learn what they need to learn. How-to-Books are fine to study but only when combined with actual experience. Sailing and cruising a smaller boat in the beginning of your quest is also the only way to define what you want on the ultimate boat when the time comes to buy your world cruiser.
And by that time, I guarantee you that whatever thoughts you have now will have changed many times before you actually settle on the boat of your dreams.

[camaraderie]

Seagypsies....have you actually been aboard a blue-water capable 50 foot boat like mine? (see avatar). I am usually an advocate of bigger boats but your lack of experience would make such a boat quite a handful for you and your budget rules out anything but 20 year old boats that probably need significant investment.
I will disagree with CDexpress a bit and say that a true bluewater boat in the 38-42' range AND lessons from a captain aboard that boat is the way to go. Starting smaller and selling imposes significant financial burdens including a 10% brokers fee and all the investment you make in upgrades and repairs plus depreciation. Buying a boat that is CAPABLE of fulfilling your dreams is the way to go especially when on a tight budget. A properly outfitted 38-42 footer is easy to handle for a young couple and provides plenty of room and you can learn how to sail and handle her with the investment in some face time with a good instructor.
Check out older Valiant 38's & 40's and Tayana 42's for examples of the types of boats I am talking about and certainly check out the sticky post at the top of this forum for other suggestions for blue-water boats.

[johnshasteen]

When you say, little experience with sailboats, it takes a year to learn how to sail but it takes more like five years to become a sailor. I've been sailing for over 50 years and I'm still amazed at something I didn't know about. You've got plenty of time to buy a smaller boat in the 30 to 35 foot range, learn on it, go on short cruises of a week or so, be sure you really love sailing (not just the romantic thought of sailing the seven seas), and get to be good enough sailors to take a larger boat on longer cruises across major bodies of water. Before you venture too far afield in a smaller or bigger boat, be sure you know everything there is to know about your boat, from rigging and sails to mechanicals and engine, tranmission, etc. because when you are 500 miles from any port and something goes wrong - and it will - you are going to be the ones to fix it.

[Gary1]

A couple of observations. You mention that you are newbies. 40-55 feet of boat is an awful lot of boat for someone with no experience. To wit: I have been sailing/boating for 45 years, and have crossed the Pacific and Atlantic. My own boat is a 36 footer.

When my friend Cliff bought Island Breeze, a 56 foot cutter, and offered me the job as captain, I jumped on it. That being said, the day I moved the boat the first time, I was puckered up as tight as...well, use your imagination.

The truth is, after 5 years, I still pucker up a bit when going into a new marina, taking her offshore to move her, or whatever, because, as I said, 55 feet is a lot of boat. She weighs 26 tons. Once you get that 26 tons going, physics get into the equation. 26 tons of boat does not like to stop, turn or any number of other things you'd like her to do. That being said, she can also decide to turn when you don't want her to, and that's no fun, either.

With that behind us, if you have a budget of $165K right now, you can buy a lot of boat. An awful lot of boat, because the market is deep in the doldrums. Take a look at the price of any boat listed with any brokerage right now and you can whack 40-50% of the price off and make an offer. Three years ago, you assumed you could take 10% from the asking price. Buyers and sellers both knew this. With the economy being tanked, people are stuck with boats they can't sell at a reasonable price. If they really want to sell it, they have to take unreasonably low offers and seriously consider them. I know, because that's the situation we're in right now.

So, the market is yours to cherry-pick if you have cash. Again, a caveat. Most people who have good boats in good shape who were trying to sell two or three years ago have taken their boats off the market. They just aren't willing to take a deep 40 or 50% hit on their original investment, which should only depreciate maybe 5% a year.

Island Breeze is still on the market, but we've thrown about a dozen bottom feeders off the boat, along with their insultingly low offers, and will continue to do so. Cliff wants to sell, but he's not going to give the boat away, either. Fortunately, he's in a position to sit on it until the economy picks back up (and it will, sooner or later).

Something I've learned the hard way is that brokers are not your friends. 'Your' broker makes his living by getting you to buy something. 'My' broker does the same. It is not in either of their best interests to see that YOUR best interests are met. Just remember an axiom of the business world: "Q: How can you tell if a salesman is lying to you? A: His lips are moving."

A suggestion from an 'old salt'. Find yourself a smaller boat than 40 feet to start with. Take sailing lessons. Prowl the docks and talk to owners. You'd be surprised. I'm not the only old geezer with stories and advice.

Another suggestion: Think about maintenance. It costs, on average, about $1500 a month to keep Breeze up, and that's the average. That's including yearly haul-outs, bottom paint, etc. Now throw in the expenses you can't schedule for like the $3500 bucks I paid to have the injectors and pump rebuilt. That repair killed my working budget, and less than a month later, one of the air conditioners died, and had to be replaced. Most recently, we thought we were facing a $3000+ tag for a new windlass, because Lewmar had no replacement parts. I got a case of the stubborns and fixed the thing for under $200 bucks, but that's the advantage of 45 years of experience with boats, a mis-spent youth playing with boats and hot-rods, and 35 years repairing medical xray equipment. Another person might not have gotten off so easily.

Anyway, boating is expensive. Period. It gets geometrically more expensive the bigger the boat gets. 40 feet of boat is, in my honest opinion, too much for novices unless you have a deep pocket and are willing to shovel out money when you accidentally hit your next-slip-neighbor's boat. Don't just think about the initial cost of the boat. Think about maintenance. Who's going to do it? Do you have the money to replace something when it breaks? (And it will. Guaranteed. Our two year-old radar crapped out while the boat was going to Baltimore three weeks ago. Cha-ching--another two grand or thereabouts!)

Sorry to throw a wet towel out there, but I've seen entirely too many young couples bury themselves, and learn to hate each other because of The Boat.

If you're still determined, then by all means, go for it. You only live once. Just think three times before you jump in. The boating world is full of sharks, and as the manager at Merrill-Stevens boat yard said to me after a little too much rum..."No job is finished until the owner's checkbook is empty!"

later,