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Small Liveaboard Cat search

57K views 72 replies 18 participants last post by  djeeke 
#1 ·
Hello,

After a post on the FP Louisiane I am redirecting my search with a more general thread which seems a lot smarter (I guess I learn fast ?) !

We own a 27 ft monohull but consider switching to a Cat for liveaboard and extended cruising...

My budget for the boat... good one... in the range of 100 to 120k Euro...
Would look at buying in the 50-80k range so there would be plenty of room left for some improvements... (there always are improvements and unforeseen expenses)

We intend, once we have the boat, to move on and start sailing, we would not want it as a day or weekend sailer, I have my Jaguar 27 monohull that does this job perfectly, it easily allows us to go on extended weekends or even longer vacations...
Once liveaboard we will be dependent on our investments income and I want this to be on the safe side...
So every Euro spent is a Euro away from our liveaboard plan, if we are able to get a good cat ready to go for 100k(Euro's) that's where we will go, to the sooner the better. (but will not compromise on safety, maintenance, equipment etc... the boat should be in great shape when we leave)

We would plan on doing some coastal sailing as a start, region and schedule undefined, could be here in Europe, Africa, US, name it... Does not really matter, sailing is great !!! Last year we talked with an English skipper who had been sailing for 7 years, initially left the UK and now sailing Turkey, but hell he enjoyed every minute of it... So a timing on planning to start ocean crossings we can not give. But if the cat we buy would be circumnavigation capable it would avoid us having to trade boats when we decide to go for it.

How well do they it sail? Anybody has a polar or can tell us how she does windward? What speeds can be obtained while cruising? How easy they sail (singlehanded?)... (after all we will be looking at older Cat's)

If it has a dual diesel inboard setup, we are Ok with this... If we find one with outboard engine setup, I initially was not thrilled about this but after thinking a bit it doesn't look too bad... We would probably replace the outboards with a dual electrical outboard setup. We see outboard engines as inside space savers. Electrical setup means instant access to silent power, no need to bother about thinking of emergence engine start in case something happens, just move the throttle and motor off... Does this sound crazy?
Would put one on the dinghy as well so no gasoline required in the boat! A diesel gen unit could be used if we really drain the batteries down. (otherwise battery charge through wind/solar system or shore power) And since a diesel gen would bring Mr Diesel on board, Mr webasto will nicely heat up our entire boat as he does on our monohull !...

It looks like the Benetteau II might be a better candidate than the FP louisiane... Any other candidates ? Oh yes, required headroom... We are 5' 8" and 5' 9" (The Mrs and me that is ;-)

Ending this initial post on this one, hope to get interesting feedback and comments...
 
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#36 ·
hmmm

Nobody has ever seen or sailed a CSK / Polycon catamaran ?

I am still interested, this one : 37' CSK/Polynesian Concept on sailboatlistings with an asking price of 20 k might be a good candidate ....

Anybody know a good surveyor in California ? (PM me if you prefer)

I would obviously need to figure out what still needs to be done (time and $ wise) to get the boat in good shape !

:rolleyes:
 
#37 ·
Djeeke—

I've been on a boat that looks a lot like that 37' CSK...but it was almost 25 years ago, and I'm not sure if it was the same boat or one that just looks like it. :) I don't remember the boat clearly enough to give you any detailed impressions of her in any case. :)

SD
 
#38 · (Edited)
Gee, thanks SD !!!
:laugher

It is now listed on ebay click here, Starting bid 15.000

The owner likes a good salestalk, he mentions someone from Europe is interested in buying his boat !
(hmm I wonder who that would be :cool: )...

Funny thing is he is not getting back to me with replies to my questions...

Go figure !

Anyway I have been pointed out by several people this boat would not be a good ocean traveler. Excellent coastal cruiser though... (or maybe it could be OK if one strengthened the hulls as he mentions)

With the correct replies to me and some feedback from a reputable surveyor on ocean capability I would not even made a lower offer than the 20k he was asking previously...

But since he's not interested in selling to me, and especially with all the feedback I got, I'm not pursuing on this boat...

A 37 ft listed for months at 20k and not sold... This also tells a story... It looks like I'm off again looking at smaller but proven ocean capable boats !!!
 
#39 ·
If it didn't sell at $20000, it probably won't sell at $15000, as it probably has some serious issues with it...
 
#41 ·
Derek Kelsall

Anybody got any idea's on Derek Kelsall designs ???

There is a 1993 Suncat 30 for sale in the UK very well within my budget, I sent the owner a request for information...

Will post any details if/when I get them !

So if anybody can comment on this design, please do :rolleyes:
 
#42 ·
Kelsall's designs use a method of pre-fabricating the panels and then assembling them. He's got a fairly extensive website, but seems to be more focussed on selling his construction techniques than actually selling his boats IIRC. While I've not sailed on any of his boats, I'm not too crazy about what I see in his designs or the photos of his boats.
 
#47 ·
Prout


Good one TQA ,thanks ! I will contact the seller for more information.

Talking about Prout, any Prout owners care to comment on the Quest 33, Snowgoose 34 and Event 34 ? Since these boats are mostly around the same budget (Event a bit higher), are there big differences? Any model to be preferred ?

:rolleyes:
 
#46 ·
How about this one!: 2000 Caribe Catamaran Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
I know you said small, but "small" is such a relative term.
I wonder what the story is on this one.
Indeed I say small, we would only be a couple cruising...
Meaning both me and my wife should be able to sail the boat singlehanded...
A 48 ft is out of the question...

The add states bank repossession, looks like someone has not been able to pay his boat... This means an opportunity for someone looking fur such a boat...

:rolleyes:
 
#48 ·
Good Old Boat magazine has web classifieds on their website, as does Points East Magazine IIRC. Craigslist and eBay are also choices. A lot of the bigger boat brokerage sites are limited to boat brokers.

Separate issue, but wondering if someone could help me out. Looking to sell my boat as I am buying another one. Any recommendations as to which websites to use to list the boat?

Thanks
 
#52 ·
Still no feedback on the Suncat :mad:
Sending a reminder...

I did however get some feedback on my Prout query :
"Event 34:- A move on from the 33 with modified hull and new deck. More beam and new stern profile. Interior updated as can be expected from the newest of your list. Increased aft cabin size including full double berth. In performance term , in my opinion the aft cabin mods ruined the sailing performance of this boat. Increased build weight and reduced flow through hulls and nacelle which again was increased to improve internal space."
Someone here to acknowledge or contradict this :confused:

If this is true one is be better of choosing an older (and cheaper) Prout than the Event... :cool:

Thanks !!!

:rolleyes:
 
#53 ·
search goes on

Someone went to have a look at a Prout Event for me, it was priced attractively but apparently all required work would bring her far above my budget...

I keep on looking...

I might plan a boatseeing trip to France soon (might go to the UK as well)...

Some of the boats we want to have a look at (and your impression on any if you know these boats is appreciated as always)...
Sea Cat 34 I have no knowledge about this boat, anyone :confused:
Hobart 900 & one Hobart 900 needing some TLC
Cité d'Aleth II which might turn up being too small in accomodation but seems to be an excellent sailor...

Maybe add a visit to a Comanche too but I am not sure about the size of the berths, reason for which we dropped the Iroquois of our list...
This Comanche is located south of Spain, a bit far away, eventual visit should be planned separately...
This Comanche and this one are over my budget, this one is closer to budget and all in France so maybe worth the detour...

As you might imagine, I'm pretty busy now trying to gather as much information as I can...

:rolleyes:
 
#56 ·
Got some feedback on the Toulbao Catamaran.
Amateur built, architect Fleury.
The ad is all but clear and the pictures are not recent... It is in worse condition than described and needs a lot of tlc. Only one engine is fitted, the other one is removed and needs to be refitted, all mast, rigging and outside parts have been removed and need to be refitted. He mentions a new sail in the ad, from the mail I understand this might not be the case.
Only one interior pic in the ad, probably prior to the dismanteling. As now the interior has been completely dismantled and only partially rebuilt, electrics, electronics, etc, all needs to be reinstalled.
Looks like they bought the boat to rebuild it a few years ago and now quit this project as they might have underestimated the workload and associated costs...
The very same reason why I don't want to get involved in a total refurbishing or building of a boat myself.
Maybe something for amateur boat builders to finish what they started, not for me...
:rolleyes:
 
#59 ·
John Hitch Catamaran

OK, different from the Crowther ...

I just came across the John Hitch Catamaran below, it was listed in New Zealand for NZ$124,000... (not for sale anymore)
This is not a lot of money for a 41 ft catamaran...


I had never heard of John Hitch Catamarans before... (probably because he's from the other hemisphere )
Anybody knows this catamaran or John Hitch ?

As I am looking for a Catamaran it might be worthwhile for me to look at his boats if one comes on the market... As long as it sails correctly off course ;)
It does not appear to have keels so I guess it must have swing boards (dagger boards would be visible when beached) or asymmetric hulls, anyone ?

Thanks !!
:cool:
 
#61 ·
Djeeke,

If your prepared to go to NZ for a cat, from my searches months ago I found that there many cats and tris at tempting prices in NZ at this web site http://www.trademe.co.nz

From the main page goto "Cars, bikes & boats", "Boats for sale" should be obvious from there, seems to be the kiwi equivalent to ebay

Before buying my tri I was tempted considering buying in NZ and sailing back to Oz.
 
#62 ·
Ran into an old ad mentioning the Heavenly Twins bigger sister...

The Ocean Winds :



She looks heavy so will probably not be a racing boat...
But the designer, Pat Patterson took her around the world, 400 years after Sir Francis Drake, following Drake's route as closely as possible. :cool:

Anybody has any knowledge to share on this catamaran ?

:rolleyes:
 
#63 ·
I just got pointed out by someone to multihullcentre.co.uk/mhcwoods
Two Woods boats for sale there (I knew the link but am thankful, maybe one day someone shows me a site I don't know with the boat we will buy...)

When I read Flica I get a sour feeling, 'Ocean Link' was sold prior to even being able to arrange a visit (and I contaced the owners even before they were back in Europe...)



This was before many investments (including mine) were hit...
I could have been sailing now instead of searching on a low budget...

But these things happen...
I'm not feeling too bad about it, the Flica is a great boat.

I'm actually going to Holland tomorrow and I hope to have a look at a Sagitta



Will try to give my feedback about the boat...

As for the Mira on the above listed site, afaik this is an open bridgedeck catamaran, probably a nice boat but not really what we are looking for...

 
#64 ·
I'm actually going to Holland tomorrow and I hope to have a look at a Sagitta



Will try to give my feedback about the boat...
:eek:
The boat pictures I got from the owner do not represent the current state at all, as far as I am concerned this one requires a major overhaul... :(
I guess the pictures are a bit dated...
I also believe it has been pushed hard as the owner told me they only reefed in a gale ("I sailed her without reef up to 7 Bft")...
I don't know what Richard recommendations are but not reefing in a near gale sounds to me as pushing the boat...
Too bad, it was well withing budget reach...
:rolleyes:
 
#65 ·
Hi,
I ran across your thread and thought I should comment on the Polycon cat so you will have a better understanding of these boats.

Polynesian Concept Catamarans was founded by actor Buddy Ebsen at the beginning of the 70's
The Polycon 37 was an enlarged and somewhat reworked development of Buddy's original 35' Polynesian Concept that won the multihull class on corrected time in the 1968 TransPac. She also smashed the Isle Of Whyte course record the following year. she was old-school cold-molded, built over a male destructive, just like Ken Murphey's Aikani, or Jim Arness' Seasmoke
Polycons are a C/S/K design, principally Rudy Choy, and the only one of his designs having symmetrical hulls. Warren Seamen, creator of the Malibu Cat, who along with Alfred Kumalai had built Polynesian Concept, did some of the engineering and Schock boats built the female tooling and the first 6 boats. These boats had internal spade rudders, polyester resin, and lower quality coring materials than the boats that came after, but were still ok as they were hand-laid by experienced crews. The boat you showed for $55,000 early in the thread, is a Schock-built Polycon. It has been butchered by adding those two heavy, smelly lumps of iron to each hull, and the drag of two props attached to them - rendering it useless as a beach cat - what a waste!
There were an additional 6 boats built in Santa Ana, California in a facility Buddy leased. The glass team was lead by Englishman Jack Holmes - an absolute expert in hand layup. These boats were not all completed on site. A
few were delivered as partially completed 'kits' , though all the critical work was still done in-shop.
I own Invictus , she is hull #10, and has externally-hung high-aspect rudders. She is essentially a 37'6" 6,000lb beach cat, with 2 heads, a galley, and can support a racing crew of 7, or week-long cruses with 4.
Hull is hand-laid glass over Airex PVC core & vinylester resin, and she has African mahogany in her keels to strengthen her for regular beaching. Daggerboards are laminated African mahogany and Shagbark Hickory, with Triax carbon skins.
Internal elemental structures are the same as with all C/S/Ks - 4 hollow-core laminated marine plywood/cedar bulkheads paired into 2 'super-boxes' - Resorcinol glue and bronze ship-nails are used in the assembly of the wood structures, which are then glassed into place. Even by today's standards, this makes a very light, rigid structure.
Contrary to some assumptions made elsewhere in this thread, these are blue-water performance boats. They come from a design heritage that began with the lovely Manu Kai - built right on Waikiki beach in 1947. She survived 48 years of beach charter work in the open waters there, and the C/S/K boats that followed her set every open Pacific course record there was, as well as a double-handed 'round the world record.
The Polycons have high bridgedeck clearance so they don't pound in a seaway like modern cruising cats do. They have plenty of reserve buoyancy in their bows, and narrow/fine hull profiles with plenty of rocker along the keel line. These are classic Pacific Voyaging Canoe features that adapt the boats well to big wave motion.
Having said all this, now for the down side . . . every boat is a trade off. Polycons are not beginner boats if you intend to push them. They don't have the beam, weight, and frac rig of the modern behemoth cruising cats, so they can become a real handful to the uninitiated in moderate to heavy air. You have to think way ahead. They accelerate like a squid, and can easily be pushed to reckless speeds. If you overtake waves to quickly with apparent wind behind your ears, sooner or later you will boneyard the boat. Stabbing the bows of a 37' cat through the back of a large wave at 18-20 knots is just begging for trouble. The other thing is weight. They don't like it. If you must take potted palms, bicycles and the dumbell set aboard with you, the Polycon is not the boat. And lastly, the space issue; These boats could accurately be classified as 'sportboats' before there was ever such a classification - Basic amenities without performance compromise. By today's cat standards, this is more like a 32' boat that a 37' boat below. There is ample headroom, but forget about the 4 double staterooms. That only comes with chubby hulls and 4-5 times the weight.

Other trivia -
Polycons were designed for single auxiliary 35hp XX-longshaft outboard, or a small single fixed engine with retracting drive leg. These are placed below the center of the cockpit, under a hatch. The fuel was also down in the fresh air under the bridgedeck in a protected alcove. There is no fuel or machinery inside the boat or cockpit.
Under auxiliary power, my boat with 45hp Honda & hydrodynamic extension cruises at 12 knots and has a top speed in calm water of 16 knots. Between 4and 9 knots, the engine cannot be heard, nor is there any perceptible vibration below.

Old war stories -
Invictus finished 2nd behind bob Hanel's 63' catamaran Double Bullet in the 1979 Newport To Ensenada Race. There were almost 600 boats in the fleet.
I am aware of three TransPac races that included Polycons, and one made the California-Hawaii crossing 4 times.

This is a good boat for:
A couple that is physically fit, and grew up racing beach cats or one-design dinghies.

Local races, Pacific passage Races.

3-10 day cruises for two couples or a couple with 1-2 kids.
People who want to experience what 'Jed Clampit', Marshall Dillon, and their Hawaiian surfer buddies were so excited about.

Best of luck on finding your perfect boat - I've found mine.

Phil
 
#66 ·
Ocean Winds 33

Hi guys !

This thread seems to die when I'm not around, we spent some time visiting hospitals and doctors ...

Then we saw an ad for a 33ft Ocean Winds Catamaran, listed at 45000Euro ...

By the ad we were led to believe the boat was in reasonable condition, It had recieved two brand new engines two years ago, it had just been out of the water for an antifouling, the deck had been repainted etc...

So off we went, booked a week in Sardinia to go and see the boat...

Where we saw the boat was in terrible shape !!! :hothead

Yes it did have new engines, only 3.5 hours, started by the owner without even checking the oil levels (and the boat had not left its mooring for ages)
Yes the deck had been repainted but without anti-skid (plain dangerous, extremely slippery when wet) so obviously the deck needed another repainting with anti-skid...
We went for a test-sail...
No wind instruments operational, display broken...
No boat speed on the log... Depth OK
The owner did not even know how to power up the compass (which seemed to function)
Autopilot not operational
radio non operational
Impossible to fully hoist the main sail (mast slide issue ?)
running rigging in terrible condition requires replacement
problems furling and unfurling the genoa
3 of the 4 deck selftailing winches were not operational, very old winches (Telo 160, 200 and 220) who will need replacement (the working one was already a newer winch, Lewmar 16, too small for this boat, main halyard winch is on the mast)
Sails in bad condition, they had been left on boom and forestay for 4 years instead of being taken of and stored inside... Genoa needed restitching, main maybe too but both sails required a big cleaning job...
Although the rigging had been replaced 4 years ago the attachments to the chainplates requires attention
Owner not aware how the GPS operates, I had my own GPS with me...
When we returned the owner gave me the keys so I could inspect the boat at my own pace.
Fuel smell inside the boat, port fuel tanks were sitting in diesel and apparently already since a long time (fuel hoses, repainting of bilge and fuel tanks
The boat needs a full electric rewiring, household wiring had been used, contacts corroded, log on nav station completely disconnected...
No separate house batteries installed (removed when the new engines were installed)
solar panels not operational
The rudder on starboard side was cracked (for how long?) and requires a big job done...
When we looked at the engines, they obviously looked nice but under the port engine there was water after the test sail, not before ! Where is the leak ???
The fridge not operational on 12V, not operational on gas, mains not tested...
Water gas heater burns, impossible to change the temperature setting.
All rubber gas hoses to be replaced.
Owner was unable to tell us how to light the oven so we don't know if this was functional (guess it's OK)
Owner was unable to explain how to operate the holding tank, head set to 'sea' position and I could not move it to the holding tank position (maybe by trying harder) so I guess these vanes require replacement, how to empty the holding tank ?
Windlass requires overhaul...
and so on...

Needless to say we were not so happy... Owner told us not to deduct all the repair costs from the asking price...

While we were in the harbour the boat got hit by a cowboy in a motor boat !!! We informed the owner who came to the boat and repaired the bow with a gelcoat repair kit left there by the previous owner, without proper cleaning/degreasing etc... We were astonished by his attitude, there were two witnesses on board of his boat when this happened and still he just did a quick and dirty fix...

Anyway, we left home and started to search for repair estimates, certainly a lot of work but might do a lot ourselves trying to keep the price down. (my wife really loved the layout of the boat and that counts)

We then got a message from the owner to look at the ad, he dropped the asking price by 20.000 so was now asking 25.000 for the boat.

We thought this was a reasonable price and replied asking him if he would reserve the boat while we arranged for a survey, we stated we would pay the asking price if the structure was sound (no delamination or osmosis)...
We kept on exchanging some messages and he even proposed himself to phone the yard to provide me a quote.

By today I agreed with a surveyor I would give him a job. We needed to schedule a hauling with a shipyard.

And I now just got an e-mail stating the boat has been sold :eek:

I sincerely hope that whoever is buying Atreyu, a 1980 Ocean Winds 33 will read this post so they know the boat they bought is NOT seaworthy and is a lot of time and money away from being so... Whoever this is, feel free to contact me !
The owner has proven he can not be trusted so there might even be a lot more issues than what I already found, after all, I'm not a surveyor...

Needless to say we are really disappointed ...
It was not for now...
The right boat will come ...
 
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