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Boat Inspection Trip Tips

233K views 204 replies 108 participants last post by  Minnewaska 
#1 · (Edited)
After reading a bit about what people think is or isn't necessary when going to look at a boat... I decided to put together this thread.

Please note
: This thread is about going to visit a boat to see if it is worth looking at further. It is not designed to replace a proper survey and sea trial. This type of trip is what you should do to see if it is worth making an offer on a boat and spending the money on a survey and sea trial. IMHO, you really need to have a survey done by a competent surveyor. YMMV.

When you're going to look at a boat, as a possible future purchase, I would make some recommendations about what you should and shouldn't do. I would ask that anyone else chime in with recommendations they have as well. I'll edit this post to add the ones I think are most important. :)

Basic Inspection Kit

First, put together a kit of tools for your boat visit. The kit should include the following:
  • Small Notebook-reporters notebooks or pocket-sized Moleskines are excellent choices for this.
  • Pencil-preferably .5mm mechanical for making notes and sketches in notebook
  • Small tape recorder-preferably with a lapel mic with windscreen, to record your visit to the boat, as it is often easier to make notes by speaking than writing when looking at a boat
  • Digital camera-I prefer the small pocket sized Olympus Stylus SW series, as they are waterproof, shock proof and have a decent lens on them
  • Tape Measure-Preferably a 25-30' tape
  • Small Flashlight-Preferably LED, like the Gerber Omnivore or Firecracker
  • Pocket Multitool-Get a good one, like the Leatherman Surge
  • Phenolic Resin Hammer-a small one will do
  • Small Magnet-preferably one with a lanyard attachment
  • Inspection Mirror-preferably one with a telescoping handle
  • Small Volt-Ohm multimeter-preferably digital with a rubber casing
  • Moisture Meter-see section below
Additional Supplies:
  • Clean White Rags
  • Awl
  • Waterless Hand Cleaner Wipes
  • Spray Cleaner (like Fantastic)
  • Burgundy Scotch Brite Pad
The Trip

First Impressions

Now, when you get to the boat, take some photos of the boat as you approach it... Turn on the tape recorder and speak clearly about your first impressions of the boat. Make sure you get your first impressions down. The human brain is a weird thing and often the first impressions are the best ones... and there's usually a reason for them.

Systematically go through the boat from bow to stern, from top to bottom, recording what you find either on the tape recorder or as sketches and notes in the notebook, and document everything with photos using the digital camera if at all possible. If you have specific requirements, use the tape measure to take measurements.

Don't forget to note the make and model of the various equipment and parts aboard the boat. Some pieces of equipment, like specific models of engines and such have known weaknesses and specific problems to be aware of.

The magnet is to be used to check stainless steel hardware. If the magnet sticks, it ain't marine grade stainless. Austenitic stainless, which covers most marine grade stainless steel, is non-magnetic and includes 304 and 316 grades of stainless. The cheaper martensitic stainless is magnetic.

The flashlight and inspection mirror are used to look in nooks, crannies, deep unlit lockers, the bilge, engine compartment, etc. Looking in lockers and such can often tell you a lot about a boat's true condition, since many people will spruce up and clean the interior of a boat for sale, but will often forget to do the same for the less visible spaces. A good example of what you may find is traces of a visible waterline in the higher lockers may indicate that the boat was sunk at some point.

Tapping the deck with the phenolic hammer near stanchion bases may give you an indication if the deck has started to delaminate or has a wet core. Most boats have a cored deck and stanchions are often places where the water intrusion can start due to the loads that they're often subjected to. Caution: If you are not skilled with a phenolic hammer please DO NOT go pounding on an Awlgriped deck!! They are used for TAPPING not pounding.

Most manufacturers do not do a very good job of potting the fasteners or deck area around the stanchions or other deck hardware, especially on older boats, made when the water intrusion problems weren't well understood.

Look for cracks in the gelcoat-most spider cracks are normal and often due to the gelcoat being laid too thickly. Parallel cracks in the gelcoat, which often indicates stressing of the fiberglass there. Star-shaped cracks in the gelcoat are usually the result of an impact.

Look for flat spots in the hull or places where the hull doesn't follow a natural curve. These can often be indicators of previous damage or bad construction. Often, places where the hull isn't following a fair curve are due to bulkheads being improperly glassed to the hull and causing a hard spot-which can cause the laminate to hinge along the hard spot and results in the laminate fatiguing prematurely there.

Check mechanical systems to see if the parts that should move do, and that the parts that shouldn't move don't. :) If something sticks, like the tiller, and shouldn't-it is probably an indicator of something wrong or about to go wrong. Excessive play is often an indicator of wear and that something may need to be repaired or replaced soon. If a cabin door or cabinet door doesn't open or close smoothly, it may mean the hull and deck have changed shape and causing it to bind-this can often happen if a compression post has started to weaken.

The multimeter can be used to do some quick checks on the electrical system. If you don't know how to use one, take a class at a local vocational/technical school and learn-you need to know how to trouble shoot electrical problems using one if you're going to own a boat.

Go through the boat and open every locker if at all possible. Lift settee cushions. Look in the bilge. Photograph the rig. Get detailed photos of the chainplates, the rudder attachment points, the steering quadrant and other important pieces of equipment.

As for the pocket multitool... you'll figure out why I included it in the kit... they're just too damn useful not to have one around. I carry the Leatherman Surge with me almost 24/7, except when I know I'm going through airport or federal building security. The blades on it are just about long enough to qualify as a felony if carried in a federal facility. :)

Going Aloft

I generally won't go aloft on a boat that I'm a complete stranger to, unless the rig is vouched for by someone I know and trust.
Also, I doubt most owners would let you go up the rig given the liability issues if the rig should fail and you get injured. Finally, many boats are on the hard when up for sale, and going aloft on the hard is a really, really bad idea IMHO.

That is why I recommend taking photos of the rig from the ground. The amount of detail you can pull off of a 8-10 MP image nowadays is astounding, even if the camera only has a fairly short focal length lens.

Moisture Meters

If you are in the market for a 10k+ vessel do yourself a favor and invest in a moisture meter. It will pay for its self the first time you use it and rule out a boat!!

Surveys run $600+ clams, moisture meters are $169 clams. If you found a boat you really loved but the surveyor came out and found moisture your out $600 if you do your own "checking" you can rule out many boats safely without a survey and with each boat you rule out die to sever moisture the meter costs less and less until it's free! When you are done simply sell it here on Sailnet to another member or keep it which is what I'd suggest!

Please do NOT listen to the neigh Sayers like David Pascoe on this subject. He is a surveyor who DOES NOT want you to own a meter. He uses scare tactics and discuses how "difficult" it is to use one. That is complete BUNK! Using a meter, to a level where you can rule out a boat with severely wet decks, takes about a half hour to learn! More accurate and detailed use takes more time but that is not what you are after in this stage.

Trust me he and his cohorts WANT to survey three or four boats for you before you find one to buy. My buddy Eric surveyed five boats before finding one in salable condition. He spent over 2k in surveys. He could have ruled at least four of these boats out, if not all five, with about a half hours worth of reading and a $300 meter saving $1700.00....

I use an Electrophysics CT33 moisture meter. This is basically the SAME EXACT meter as the $325.00 J.R. Overseas GRP33. The only difference I know of are the graphics on the analog display. As long as you don't mind ordering from a Canadian company you can save HUGE money. The current price for the CT33 is $169.00 plus shipping from Canada. Oh and don't forget to order the calibration block @ $10.00..

So $169.00 - CT33 Moisture Meter
$10.00 - Calibration block
$9.00 - US Shipping
Total $188.00 Delivered

$169.00


Electrophysics CT33 Moisture Meter Ordering Informationn (LINK)

If you want fancier analog graphics $325.00:


As Maine Sail says: "when you DIY the tools are FREE!! There is NO excuse for anyone investing more than 10K in a new boat to NOT own a moisture meter.." I agree with him. Owning the right tools makes almost everything you do easier. :) BTW, his article on the CT-33 is located HERE.

Specific Inspection Areas:

#1 Sails & Canvas
- If the sails are on board find the UV cover or luff end of the head sail and scratch the threads with your fingernail. If they fail or break the sails need at a minimum re-stitching. If you can find the head board of the main sail,it sees lots of UV as it's not folded into the sail when flaked do the same here. Do the same for any canvas..

#2 Driveline - On inboard powered boats grab the prop and wiggle it back and forth up and down. If there is any play the cutlass bearing is mostly shot and will need replacement.

#3 Driveline - Inspect the strut, prop shaft (if bronze) and prop for any signs of dezinctification. This will appear as areas of discoloration more pinkish or coppery in color as opposed to the gold hue of bronze. A Scotchbrite pad is a good thing to add to the inspection kit as it will allow you to get down to bare bronze.

#4 Rudder -Grab the rudder and move it from side to side and fore and aft. If there is significant play the bearings or bushings may be past prime.

#5 Rudder - Move the rudder by hand from full port to full starboard. If you feel any difference in resistance it could be a bent shaft or steering gear issues.

#6 Steering
- Inspect the entire steering gear assembly and look for excess play or "meat hooks" on the steering cable. Make sure the wheel brake works. A broken wheel brake, or one that does not have adequate locking to prevent you from turning the rudder by hand, means the rudder was allowed to move freely at the dock or mooring. This is BAD and adds to unnecessary premature wear and tear on the entire steering system.

#7 Steering
- Inspect the rudder stuffing box. You are looking for signs of drips or leaks. they will usually run from the top of the rudder packing gland down and will be green in color if it has a bronze rudder packing gland.

#8 Rudder - Look for any rust colored drips emanating from the rudder. This is a good sign of water intrusion.

#9 Keel - Look for any signs of water seepage or discoloration stains along the keel to hull joint. Leaking keel joints lead to crevice corrosion of the keel bolts and can be a bad situation.

#10 Keel - Look in the bilge for any signs of un-sealed screw holes, possibly left over from a float switch or bilge pump, with brownish rust stains around them. This could mean the boat has a plywood laminated keel stub that has been moisture saturated. If the stub has wood and it's wet the keel bolts will likely be suffering from a good deal of crevice corosion.

#11 Keel - Look at the keel bolts and make sure they are no circular stress cracks emanating outward from the backing plates. This is another sign of a rotting and compressing keel stub. Solid fiberglass does not compress enough to create circular stress cracks.

#12 Bulkheads - Using a Awl (please be courteous and do this in an inconspicuous area that can not be seen) poke the areas around the chain plates lightly. If the wood is rotten the Awl will sink in. Do the same around the bottoms of the bulkheads where they meet the bilge.

#13 Glassed in Bulkheads - Inspect all tabbing and make sure NONE of it is peeling or broken free from either the hull or the bulkheads. Do your best to look at the entire mating surface and this will usually require the flashlight and inspection mirror. If you notice any discoloration of the wood lightly poke at it with the Awl. Look for any signs of the teak veneer bubbling or lifting. This is always a red flag for moisture in the bulkheads.

#14 Screwed in Bulkheads - Many production boats used bulkheads that are screwed in place. Make sure the screws are entering at a 90 degree angle to the wood. Screw heads that are cocked or off the 90 degree angle, and if there are more than just the occasional one, are a good indication the bulkhead has been over stressed and has moved. Awl same as above and PLEASE be polite about your use of the Awl!

#15 Deck (Under-side) - Do your best to remove anything that will get you to the backing plates of deck hardware. Please do not dismantle the boat! This is only for areas of easy access. If you can unzip a headliner for example, and the zipper does not stick, visually inspect deck penetrations for any signs of "coffee drips". Any brownish drips or brownish colored stains dripping from through-bolted hardware or any holes on the underside of the deck are signs of a seriously deteriorating rotting deck. If you see "coffee drips" in more than one location walk away and find another boat..

#16 Seacocks - Visually inspect the "balls" from outside with a flashlight and look for any signs of corrosion. If they have handles that turn like your hose spigot at home know that they will need to be replaced because they are gate valves. Real seacocks should have handles that turn only vertically to be in-line with the valve and horizontally to be in-line with the hull only. Turn the handles and visually make sure the balls are opening and closing from outside the boat and make sure they turn freely.

#17 Seacocks - Check for a UL Marine rated listing and dezinctifacation (coppery pinkish coloring)

#18 Seacock Backing Blocks - Poke these with the Awl. If they are soft they are wet and will need replacement. The Awl should not "sink in" under light pressure.

#19 Hoses - Visually inspect hoses, including exhaust hoses, for any signs of dry rot, cracking or reinforcement wire bleed or break through. If you see rust spots mid hose this is a good sign that the reinforcing wire is rusting inside the hose. Check for double hose clamps at all bellow water fittings. Also check to make sure there is no clear, un-reinforced hose that leads to any through hull fitting.

#20 Seacocks - Check for a UL Marine rated listing and dezinctifacation (coppery pinkish coloring).

#21 Engine - Check the oil and make sure it was recently changed and that it is clean and not black. An owner that puts a boat away, or lists one for sale, with dirty oil, is also an owner that does not maintain the vessel to a good standard!

#22 Engine
- If you've checked everything else, and are a VERY SERIOUS BUYER, remove the engine/heat exchanger zinc and make sure there actually is one and that it is in good condition. DO NOT do this with the boat in the water and the seacock open and do not do this if you are tire kicking this vessel. Ideally this should be left to the surveyor but most don't do this!

#23 Engine - Using a clean white rag run it under the engine any where you can reach. If you find a drip record it in the notebook and jot down it's location. Turn the rag to a clean spot and continue. Many owners will spot clean an engine to hide oil leaks. The rag trick usually finds them.

#24 Engine - Wiggle the engine and visually inspect the motor mounts for dry rot or oil degradation. make sure the motor mounts are still working and not cracked.

#25 Engine / Fuel - If the boat is equipped with a fuel/water separator device such as a Racor. Use an empty Coke bottle to crack the pet **** and drain off just a touch of fuel. If it is laden with sediment or all you get is water this is a bad sign. Do NOT drain the entire bowl just a quick crack of this pet **** will show you what you need to know and won;t require the owner re-bleeding the engine. Be polite and clean up ANY fuel drip with the spray cleaner you brought. Even ONE drop is being impolite and rude diesel stinks!!!

#26 Winches - Rotate the winches and make sure they rotate freely and smoothly. Wiggle them side to side, especially if they are aluminum. There should be NO play in the drum. Any play in an aluminum winch is a good sign that the bearing mating surfaces are worn or corroded due to dissimilar metals corrosion. DO NOT overlook this, winches are big $$$$$$$!

#27 Blocks Sheaves - Make sure all blocks and sheaves rotate freely and are not frozen.

#28 Running Rigging - Look for any signs of chafe and wear especially halyards. Scratch the surface of the lines jacket with your fingernail and if threads give way or break it is time for new running rigging.

#29 Portlights
- Look for any visibly signs of leaking.

#30 Lifelines - Look for rust / corrosion at the fittings and between the white jacket of the wire and the swaged fitting.

Warning Signs:

If the boat owner doesn't want/allow you to do this... it may be that they are hiding something. A boat owner who is proud of how well kept and maintained his boat is should have no problem allowing you fairly complete access to the boat and its systems.

Walk the Docks

Once you've gone over the boat with a fine tooth comb... walk the docks and talk to the other marina residents. They can often give you a lot of information about the boat.
  • Was it used regularly or was it a dock queen?
  • Did the owner come out to check the lines and fenders before and after a storm?
  • Did the owner have regular maintenance done to the boat?
  • How long has it been for sale?
All this stuff can often be discovered just by being friendly and talking to other people at the boat's marina.

When you get home

Put everything aside for a day...and then come back and look at it... this gives your subconscious mind a chance to process what you've seen and things that you may have not realized on the initial trip may jump out at you.

If you get a hunch about some equipment or part on the boat, look at your photos and notes about them and see if you can figure out what your subconscious is trying to tell you.

Don't forget to do a bit of research on the various pieces of equipment you saw on the boat to find what specific problems are common to them.

What to do next:

If you really like what you saw and didn't come across any glaring warning signs, it is probably time to make the offer. When you make your offer, ask for maintenance records, and make the offer subject to survey and sea trial.

Remember, if you're married or have a significant other... GET THEIR INPUT. If you don't, you probably will regret it in the long run. :)

I hope this helps.
 
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3
#75 ·
Glad to help Bardia. :) Good luck with the boat. :)
 
#77 ·
dam good tips I never thought about buying a moisture meter. I guess you just use this devise anywhere you think there could be water like around chainplates or whatever. I may just have to purchase this thing when I really get serious about buy some boats. So I see on the meter it may go from 0-30% so when you take a reading I assume you are wanting that reading to be 0 all the time correct and the higher the number the more expensive the repairs could be?

Thanks
Chris
 
#78 ·
No, the meter will read up to 10% on a dry deck from the moisture in the air, and moisture that should be in the Balsa or marine ply.

I use my meter to detect changes in the moisture readings as I slide the meter over the deck and hull. I wipe the deck with a cotton cloth as I slide the meter along to remove dirt, or any surface moisture (even on a dry day). When the meter reads over 20% that is a good indication of excessive moisture in a cored deck or hull.

- Ed
 
#79 ·
Don't nuke Jstorm yet! He was the surveyor who recommended us to another surveyor who met the ARE's definition of a thorough survey. I can vouch for the fact that he was more than willing to pass on the name of another quality surveyor when he was too busy to schedule us. In my experience with him, his motivations were absolutely not to put more cash in his pockets but to help us find the quality of survey we were looking for in a timely manner. His first concern was our needs, not his.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread...
 
#80 ·
Couple of thoughts

Great Post! Here are a couple of things that came to mind while reading through the thread.

- No matter how knowledgeable you are get a survey. I went over my current boat in detail. The surveyor found a couple of things I missed and I picked up a couple of things he missed. Between the two of us I had a really good snapshot of the boat.

- For every electrical upgrade or bit of electronics added take a look at the electrical installation. My boat was OK, but I've seem some things that made me cringe.

- Before looking at the boat spend some time online researching both the boat and the engine. Knowing what problems are common to a certain model can save you a lot of time, heartache and dollars.

- CAREFULLY read what is supposed to be included with the boat. I found two versions of the listing for my boat. The first one listed a dinghy and outboard the second didn't. It turned out the seller was no longer in the area and the broker was trying to keep the dinghy and motor for himself. The "oversight" was only corrected when I pushed the issue with the broker.

Jim
 
#81 ·
Great Post! Here are a couple of things that came to mind while reading through the thread.

- No matter how knowledgeable you are get a survey. I went over my current boat in detail. The surveyor found a couple of things I missed and I picked up a couple of things he missed. Between the two of us I had a really good snapshot of the boat.
My post was never intended to replace a proper survey... just help eliminate the boats that aren't worthy of investing the money for a survey.

- For every electrical upgrade or bit of electronics added take a look at the electrical installation. My boat was OK, but I've seem some things that made me cringe.

- Before looking at the boat spend some time online researching both the boat and the engine. Knowing what problems are common to a certain model can save you a lot of time, heartache and dollars.

- CAREFULLY read what is supposed to be included with the boat. I found two versions of the listing for my boat. The first one listed a dinghy and outboard the second didn't. It turned out the seller was no longer in the area and the broker was trying to keep the dinghy and motor for himself. The "oversight" was only corrected when I pushed the issue with the broker.

Jim
Very good points... and many boats have issues that are common to the make and model, especially for specific years, like the Catalina "Smile" and the plywood keel stub support.
 
#82 ·
Thanks Ed so I assume surveyors if there unshore of the outside of a hull after pounding on it will then maybe use the meter or is a meter really mainly used for the decks?? I would think if there doing a moisture test they would need to fully dry off the boat before so.

Thanks sailingdog I know you were just giving pointers for someone to save a little money and i truely appreciate that because that is a fear of what if I go see a boat I like it and use a surveyer and he finds stuff that makes me not want the boat I just wasted 500+

Thanks,
Chris
 
#83 ·
Moisture meters

If you buy or borrow a moisture meter to use while looking over a boat for possible purchase there are a couple of things to keep in mind:

1. The meter measures the radio frequency electrical conductivity of the material it is in contact with (and below the surface to a variable depth). The meter does not directly measure water. Many materials, including fiberglass laminate and various gelcoats and paints, have some RF conductivity. You will not get a zero reading even on "bone dry" fiberglass. It will vary to some degree with the type of resin and fiber (typicall about 10%-15% on the "wood" scale see #2 below). Of course, water saturated materials do have higher RF conductivity. Primarily what I look for is large variations around chainplates, deck mounted Genoa track (often a culprit), and other penetrations.

2. The "Percent" scale is for WOOD only - not fiberglass. On fiberglass you can only use it for relative measurements. Look for anomalous areas - real wet deck core usually will "peg" the meter.

3. If the boat is wet stored, or has only recently been hauled, the meter will not tell you very much about the bottom below the waterline. You probably need several days and perhaps more, depending on how long the boat has been in the water. All resins (including epoxy and vinylester) have a finite diffusion coefficient for water (i.e. they all will absorb some molecular water over a long enough period of time). In New England, where boats typically spend less than 6 mo/yr in the water, the bottoms should dry quickly. In Florida and TX where they sit in hot water for years at a stretch, resins will absorb quite a bit of water over that time. On a 1 hr quick-haul for survey (normal here in TX) the bottoms ALWAYS read wet on a meter.

Hope this helps you-all.

J Stormer
 
#84 ·
A nit...

1. The meter measures the radio frequency electrical conductivity of the material it is in contact with (and below the surface to a variable depth). The meter does not directly measure water.
According to the manufacturer, pinless meters (ie CT-33) actually measure the capacitance, that is the ability of the material to store an electrical charge. In effect the back of the meter has an electric plate, which acts as one plate of a capacitor. The water, which is conductive, acts as the other plate, and the fiberglass, which does not, is a dielectric between the two plates. This is why moisture (dew) on the surface of the fiberglass dry will give spurious (high) readings.

Primarily what I look for is large variations around chainplates, deck mounted Genoa track (often a culprit), and other penetrations.
Right on!! The theory of how they work is less important than where and how you test, and interpret the results.

I bring a deck / hull diagram with me, and make sure that my meter is calibrated immediately before I use it (it can vary from day to day with humidity) and try to establish a baseline on the particular boat that I am checking. The baseline reading is at a point that I feel confident has not been compromised by moisture. I then at moisture prone areas, and only look for large variations in the readings. I have found that most decks that I have checked have a baseline, on the CT-33 meter, between 5 and 10. When I see the needle pass 25% I note that area as being "moist" on my diagram. I then search around the deck and continue to note the 25% moisture cline on my diagram as I scan around.

HTH!

Ed
 
#85 ·
Thanks J stormer yeah I was thinking here in Louisiana boats are always in the water so useing this meter below the waterline here is kinda pointless but yeah i can see how it could be used up north more. The more I keep reading the more I feel like i need to try and buy something on the north east coast although it may cost me more to get it back here it maybe better off in the long run.

Thanks
Chris
 
#86 ·
Most bottom paints would throw the meter off in any case, since they're full of metallic salts... ;)
 
#89 ·
Inexpensive meter

JStorm and Ed are correct about the meters and how to use them to spot wet areas.

For inspecting boats, and just trying to identify wet deck cores, I'm thinking this $35 meter from Woodcraft might do the trick.

It would also be a good idea to check around any stains in plywood or wood trim to get an idea if there are any leaking hatches.

Great thread SailingDog!
 
#90 ·
JStorm and Ed are correct about the meters and how to use them to spot wet areas.
Thanks for the confirmation!:)

For inspecting boats, and just trying to identify wet deck cores, I'm thinking this $35 meter from Woodcraft might do the trick.
Unfortunately, this meter won't work - at least for checking moisture in the core of a fiberglass hull or deck. If you watch the video, you'll see that the moisture probe requires pulling the black cover off the pins, and then inserting the pins into the surface of the object that you wish to test. (This is a resistance type meter.) Before you stick pins through the fiberglass and into the core of any part of the boat, you better check with the owner..:D

It would also be a good idea to check around any stains in plywood or wood trim to get an idea if there are any leaking hatches.
Evidence of moisture here usually dosen't require a meter. You can either see tracks of stain, or (in several boats that I've seen) the wood has begun to decay.:eek:

- Ed
 
#91 ·
Thanks for the link to your post Saildog. Fantastic advice and much of it I will use while I cull the herd of candidate sailboats.
 
#93 ·
Swimnfit—

Glad to help... good luck and keep us posted. :)

StewSam—

corrosion is clearly the greatest problem affecting steel boats. However, there are some other issues, and many of them won't be readily diagnosed or recognized by the average boater. The type of steel used is often a huge factor in the longevity and durability of a steel boat, as is the preparation and surface treatment of the steel. Neither of these are something that you can tell by just looking at the boat.

There are also issues of balance and performance with steel boats that are less obvious. If the boat wasn't drawn as a steel boat to begin with, there may be some serious compromises to the boat's performance and stability.
 
#96 ·
When is a surveyor not needed?

Excellent posts! I am finally starting the process of getting a boat bigger than a hobiecat and am looking for a trailerable 20-25' and looking to spend $2-4k. At what point is a boat too small or too low in price to pay for a surveyor (would still definitely use the checklist!)? I am not sure of their cost structure but saw pricing in the $600 range in an earlier post.
 
#101 ·
I'm an experienced business lawyer. I understand contingencies in a P&S.

No matter. It's not worth the effort to enter into protracted price negotiations after a survey has revealed significant defects in a boat.
You are paying for the survey in either case, aren't you?

If you think enough of the boat to seriously consider an offer, a survey before making the offer costs you nothing, since once you make the offer, you are committed to hiring a surveyor anyway.

Also, getting the survey up front allows me to take all of the significant defects into account up front. If I still like the boat enough to make an offer, I will make the appropriate price adjustments then. I'm not going to get stuck with an uncompensated problem in any event.

That's the way its done in business-- a non bindling letter of intent followed by due diligence, and if the diligence is acceptable, then a P&S with appropriate closing conditions. The residential real estate model, where the P&S is signed first, is far too advantageous for the seller, for whom the brokers work (as do yacht brokers).
 
#103 · (Edited)
If you think enough of the boat to seriously consider an offer, a survey before making the offer costs you nothing, since once you make the offer, you are committed to hiring a surveyor anyway.
Not exactly. You are only committed if your offer is accepted.

I think that the premise is that you negotiate to what you are willing to pay to get that boat. If it needs repairs to make it serviceable, you will deduct those costs from your agreed price. (Of course some more bargaining will go on.)

If you were offering asking price, then I would agree with you, but I think most people bargain down.

Why go through the expense of a survey if your offer is not a sure thing?
 
#102 ·
I have no axe to grind here, but recently bought a boat in San Francisco while working in Dubai. The fact was that the only boats on offer of the type I wanted were in the states.

I had a pretty good idea of the boat's condition from a lengthy correspondence with the PO, and having shown a definite interest in buying the boat I asked him if he would mind having a survey done at my expense.

He did not object having realized from the correspondence that I was serious. (In fact the very act of paying for a survey indicates a serious approach I guess.)
The air fare was $2000, and the survey fee from an accredited surveyor was $500.
For me this was a no-brainer and after the successful survey I committed, paid the deposit, then went to SF to complete, and pack up the boat for transport.
I made a good friend of the PO, and my boat arrives tomorrow!

OK - I took something of a risk buying the boat unseen except for photographs, but the survey was my insurance.

All round success so far. (The boat's still to be craned off the container ship and motored round to the marina for mast stepping.. fingers crossed)
 
#106 ·
For me this was a no-brainer and after the successful survey I committed, paid the deposit, then went to SF to complete, and pack up the boat for transport.
I made a good friend of the PO, and my boat arrives tomorrow!
Just curious did you pay list. If no how was the matter of price worked out. I assume you guys came to verbal agreement before you sent in the surveyor.

If so, in better times, if the owner happed to be around when the survey was done and figured out the boat surveyed well there would be reason he could not sell the boat to someone else the next day.
With a verbal agreement he knows your highest number and is free to beat it.

In this market maybe not much of a risk though.
 
#104 · (Edited)
Even if an offer is not acxcepted, a majority of sellers will counter offer. No one pays full list in this market. Not on a houise, not on a boat. The broker will know this even if the seller does not.

As a practical matter, sending the surveryor first saves me time and money. My time is valuable, and so is yours.

As a legal matter, sending the surveyor first protects me in the following case: the surveyor comes back and says, there's nothing really wrong with it, but there's alot of mileage on it, and I've seen this same model in better condition for the same price. In fact, there's one in a marina 20 miles away from here that's much nicer. I surveyed that boat but the deal fell through and I know she's still available.

Try dealing with that scenario if you've already signed the standard Yacht Broker's form. If you want to get out, say goodbye to your security deposit.
 
#105 · (Edited)
surveyor comes back and says, there's nothing really wrong with it, but there's alot of mileage on it, and I've seen this same model in better condition for the same price. In fact, there's one in a marina 20 miles away from here that's much nicer. I surveyed that boat but the deal fell through and I know she's still available.
Try dealing with that scenario if you've already signed the standard Yacht Broker's form. If you want to get out, say goodbye to your security deposit.
I know you are an attorney but you obviously don't know about an immutable law of boating.
Never under any circumstances will anyone tell you about another boat nicer and cheaper than the one you are looking at until you sign the contract. When the survey is done does not matter. the law states very clearly that you have to sign the contract before you can be told of the better deal.

A corollary to that law is that if you weasel out of the deal the "other boat" will be a dog and you will not want it. When you come back to buy the first boat it will have sold for less than the contract that you broke.

Even the best of attorneys can not evade immutable laws of the sea.:)
 
#107 · (Edited)
Personally I would love it if someone wanted to survey my boat before putting in an offer. In fact the more they spent looking at my boat the better. Now when they put in an offer that is less than list I can ask to see a copy of the survey, since that is the basis of the reduced amount.
I now have all this time with a recent survey paid by someone else to attempt to sell it to someone else. If my contract avoider and I come to a verbal agreement on the price before that is even better. I now have a floor price I can try to beat.

The fact of the matter is that even if a contract is signed many brokers will still show a boat just in case the deal falls through. I would be interested in hearing from any brokers what percentage of deals fall through. I'll bet it is at least 10%.

I suspect our new lawyer friend is looking for a very limited edition boat so he has to search a large area. After he does everything he can by phone, spending the $500 makes sense. The advantage of not signing a contract is he doesn't have to worry about getting his 5,000 deposit back. If he looses the boat, not likely in this market, oh well.
For those of us who are looking more locally and maybe not spending as much on a boat the contract first approach might work better or at least will not matter much.

There are three risks:
  1. Getting your money back from the deposit (It should be a no brainier but you never know. Brokers I have talked to say that they return deposits for what they consider trivial reasons all the time because they don't want the hassle of forcing a sale on an unhappy customer.)
  2. Finding a better deal after you have a contract
  3. Loosing the deal you have because you don't have a contract
Frankly all three are possible but unlikely.
Folks will do what causes them the least worry.

The bottom line is that that no matter how careful you are buying the boat is just the first of hundreds of decisions you will make to manage risk.

I would find it interesting if our lawyer would read a standard contract and report back to us (no charge of course). I always understood that the contract was binding on the seller. They could not sell the boat I had a contract on even if they were offered more money. The contract was binding on me the buyer in theory only as all I had to do was find something that was not exactly as specified in the listing or found on the survey and I could walk.

I believe the reason why brokers and sellers like the contract is purely physiological not legal. Buyers are 10 times more skittish than sellers and the act of signing a contract and putting down money shows they are serious and emotionally commits them.
Has anyone ever heard of someone not being allowed to walk away from a boat sales contract. I have not. I'm sure some salesman are tougher than others. It's like the federal penalty for ripping of the tag on your mattress.
(Yes I know it does not apply to the end user)
 
#109 ·
Well there are two downsides to doing the survey first. 1. You have to pay for it. 2. There is no "standstill" arrangement. Until you sign the P&S, another buyer could come along and grab the boat.

I am happy to give the seller a copy of the survey whether I choose to make an offer or not.

As for the surveyor, of course he will tell you about other boats. He works for you, the buyer, not the seller. Also, I look for a surveyor who is familiar with the model in which I am interested and has done recent surveys of that model.

I used this procedure in two cases. In the first, a boat in NC, the surveyor told me that at some point the cabin had been full of water, even though they had disguised it nicely. I did not make an offer. Several months later the surveyor told me that the next boat in which I was interested was in "cherry" condition. So I made an offer that was 12% below asking (a good offer in today's market) and it was accepted immediately. The only negotiating was what equipment would be included in the boat i.e. the inflatable. I got that too, even it was not mentioned in the listing.

IMHO instead of trying to learn how to be a surveyor, a buyer should spend his or her time very carefully going over the listing and making sure that everything you want is included. What about the inflatable, the outoard, the oars? Galley equiment? Fenders? The flat scxreen TV? Extra sails? Map chips for the chartplotter? Engine spares? Let your sureveyor deal with structural or mechanical issues.
 
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