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  #41  
Old 11-13-2008
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I sailed on a Beneteau for the kind of sailing you are suggesting. I think you will be pleased with the boat. If you expect to loose sight of shore, then the Beneteau isn't the best option. However, Beneteau's are comfortable and you'll be happy with it. How long have you been sailing?
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  #42  
Old 11-13-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by painkiller View Post
CD,

I thought the entire point of the wide, flat aft sections of modern boats was to enhance off-the-wind (and therefore following sea) performance by facilitating surfing. But maybe I'm confusing performance with a seakindly ride?

Popular folklore has it that boats are designed beamy and flat nowadays because the compressed schedules of workaday life mean that people don't have the time, patience, or need (because of the relative improvement in the reliability of marine engines) to beat to windward anymore when trying to reach that next anchorage. The wide, flat form gives lots of room down below while enhancing the off-wind sailing characteristics of the boat. A win-win for the modern sailor.

However, I admit to being the LEAST knowledgeable on such matters, so I'll defer to anyone that offers a plausible alternative.

Jeff is the best person to answer that, but I will give you my opinion which may be wrong.

If you pull the Tayana and look at her from the underside, you will see something of a v shape. THe stern pulls up out of the water. When we were in following seas in the gulf, we had almost no tail wagging. However, if you pull my boat or others, they have a flatter bottom that rolls along with the seas. When pitched, that exposes more of a flat, wetted surface to the seas and seems to provide a better point by which to "push" the boat - thus you get the tail wagging the dog. The trade off to this is that you get a longer waterline for theoretical hull speed and more room down below for creature comforts. I think it might also be argued that the flatter bottoms allow for a more sure footed boat verus the tender qualities felt in a round bottom.

My opinions, but I jhave always said that design is not my strongpoint. That is Jeff's gig and I would give way to his opinions on the matter over mine.

- CD
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  #43  
Old 11-13-2008
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I love the engineering, handling and space of my Beneteau 46. I see very little obsticles as opposed to other boats I have sailed or looked into buying.

You could spend many happy comfortable hours sailing this design. Not every lay out works for everyone but this lay out, boat and everything works well for me.
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  #44  
Old 11-13-2008
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This is an earlier post that I wrote on the subject of the current trend towards wider sterns and finer bows. Beneteau tends to employ world class designers and seems to care more about sailing performance than some of the other big volume builders. As I have mentioned before, I few years back I looked at a whole bunch of 10-12 year old boats built by the big three builders and Beneteaus as a rule, generally were in much better condition than the boats from the other companies. Anyway, here's the earlier article......


There seems to be a lot of discussion about why newer boats have wider sterns. There are a lot of reasons that modern boats tend to have wider sterns but increased accomodations is not necessarily one of them. More on that later. If we look a little bit of history, after the Fastnet disaster a lot of attention was focused on what makes a good seaworthy boat. Motion at sea became a popular research topic. ffice:smarttags" />lace w:st="on">Hulllace> forms and weight distribution was studied in great detail. One of the trends that came out of all of that study was boats with longer waterlines and finer bows. Moving the waterline forward reduced pitching and making the bow finer reduced the impact with waves in a chop.
fficeffice" />>>
As bows became finer the center of bouyancy moved aft as well. At first this produced boats that developed a lot of weather helm as they heeled and which tended to jack their rudders out of the water and wipe out easily. As designers got better at modeling hull forms this became far less of a problem.
>>
This combination of fine bow and powerful stern sections were found to offer exceptional upwind performance and reaching speeds that are substantially higher than theoretical hull speeds. So this fine bow, more powerful stern hull forms were really a win-win design trend that offered greater speed, coupled with better motion comfort and seaworthiness.
>>
In a past issue of Sailing World there was an interesting couple paragraphs dealing with theoretical hull speed which touched on the issue of theoretical hull speed as it relates to these new hull forms. I am quoting here:
>>
"Waterline's affect on hull speed is theoretical and not absolute. As a hull goes faster, the bow wave stretches to the point where the bow and stern wave become on wave cycle, whose wavelength is equal to the waterline length. This brings us to wave theory. "
>>
"The speed of a wave (in knots) is equal to the square root of the wavelength (in feet) multiplied by 1.34. If your boat has a waterline length of 32 feet, the theoretical hull speed is 7.6 knots. The waterline length is thought to limit the hull speed because if the boat goes any faster the stern waves has to move further back taking the trough between it and the bow wave along with it. As the trough moves aft, it causes the stern to drop, making the boat sail uphill."
>>
"Except for planning designs, sailboats typically can't generate enough power to go any faster and climb their own bow wave. But a boat with extra volume in the stern can exceed its theoretical hull speed because the extra bouyancy prevents the stern from dropping into the trough. By the same token, a fine-ended design might not achieve its theoretical hull speed if buoyancy in the stern is insufficient." (Written by Steve Killing and Doug Hunter).
>>
That said, as with anything in yacht design all things need to be done in moderation and no matter how theoretically good any design idea might be, it can obviously be taken beyond a reasonable moderation to the point that it becomes a bad idea. Unfortunately from my perspective that is occurring in the case of many of the newer performance cruisers. If you look at the Volvo 60, IRC, or early IMS race boat derived designs the transoms are not all that wide and the waterlines and flare are quite moderate. While these designs are fastest when sailed flat, they still are very easy to sail at reasonably large heel angles. Denr and I appear to be in agreement on the Open Class derived designs which tend to push transom widths to an extreme resulting in extremely large wetted surface, and poor handling without such remedial devices as trim daggerboards and dual rudder.
>>
It is important to understand that it is much harder to design a good boat with a wide transom and fine bow than a more traditional hull form. These designs require more careful weight distribution and buoyancy distribution studies than more traditional designs. Sectional properties need to be more carefully configured as well. When done right, a properly designed fine bow, wider transom boat has no more tendancy to go down in the bow when heeled than a pinched stern boat (remember IOR boats had very pinched sterns and yet they were very prone to going bow down and wiping out with heel angle) and also has no more tendancy to wipe out.
>>
But there is the rub. Proper design of fine bow, wide transom boats requires careful modeling at all heel angles and all pitch angles. It requires reasonable assumptions about loading and trim angles. Boats like the new Tartans seem to take on the wide transom look as a kind of fashion statement rather than as a carefully balanced design concept and as such seem to produce designs that are not all that great sailors in many of the repects mentioned above.
>>
Beyond all of that, many new sailors seem to be unaware of the importance of weight distribution and trim angles. Traditional boats often carried 10% of their ballast as trim ballast that could be located as necessary to adjust the trim of the boat due to its state of loading. This is unheard of today. People tend to load boats almost haphazzardly thinking if the designer has created a locker then it is there to be filled with what ever fits regardless of its weight and position.
>>
But all of that said, I do think that it is a bit of a stretch to say that these broader sterns solely resulted from trying to stuff in additional accommodations. I say this because as the stern gets broader, displacement is removed from the bow thereby reducing usable accomodations volume in the bow. If anything the accomodations are just shifted aft a bit. That is not necesarily a bad thing as the stern has less motion than the bow.
>>
>>
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  #45  
Old 11-13-2008
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I did not find anything in there about following seas, Jeff.

I have moved this discussion to this thread for further comments. THose interested can follow it from there. I do not want to take over her thread.

- CD

Stern designs and trade offs
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  #46  
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From Principles of Yacht Design, Lars Larsson and Rolf Eliasson, third edition, pp 95:

"A final point to mention is the balance between the forward and aft halves of the hull. Many modern yachts have very full stern sections, while the forward sections are very sharp. This may be good for the surfing abilities of the hull, but it is not good for the course stability when rolling. When the hull heels over, the centre of buoyancy moves much more sidewards in the stern than in the bow. The force required to move the volume of water sidewards comes from the hull, which by law of action and reaction is affected by the same force from the water, but in the opposite direction. The stern is thus affected much more than the bow, and the hull changes its course in the heeling direction. This happens, of course, both to starboard and port, and the hull becomes difficult to keep on course."
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  #47  
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CD...why do you have a radar reflector on your mast when you have that big one on your stern?
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  #48  
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I think it should be noted as well that we're discussing immersed hull section here and that is why a canoe stern is of questionable utility in and of itself versus a transom stern. The portion of the canoe stern you see above the waterline serves no real purpose in 99% of sailing conditions and even the 1% where one might think it valuable might be properly questioned. The underwater hull form is another matter entirely.
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  #49  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailaway21 View Post
I think it should be noted as well that we're discussing immersed hull section here and that is why a canoe stern is of questionable utility in and of itself versus a transom stern. The portion of the canoe stern you see above the waterline serves no real purpose in 99% of sailing conditions and even the 1% where one might think it valuable might be properly questioned. The underwater hull form is another matter entirely.
My answer on the other thread.
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  #50  
Old 11-13-2008
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Be nice Cam...every one knows that his FLIR beacon. Mainly used by the local USCG and military planes since his boat is a KNOWN FIXED LANDMARK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by camaraderie View Post
CD...why do you have a radar reflector on your mast when you have that big one on your stern?
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