Why not a Beneteau?

[blt2ski]

Bene,

You'd want to trade in all that for why? A family of 4 near me just got back froma 2 yr trip around teh pacific rim with a Jeanneau 49iP. This fellow had his choice of boats to a degree, as he is the owner of a dealership that sells Jeanneau, C&C, Tartan, X yacht, Dehler, nauticat to name the new boats they sell. He took a Jeanneau. Not one of the better respected boats on this forum.

Others on here also sail Bene's and Jeanneau's just fine on the oceans. IIRC the recent ARC around the world cruise, 50% of the boats are either Bene's or Jeanneau's! Not that 6-7 of 13-5 boats is a lot, but a reasonable number.

If it works for you, use it, do not look back. Modify what needs modifying for your use, as you would probably modify one of those old shoes to suit your needs too!

There was a recent trans atlantic race, 15 were the brand new Jeanneau sunfast 3200's racing. took most of the top places too.

Reality is, many production boats can be used off shore, and do well. As long as you are not trying to sail thru katrina on a daily basis. And ost of us should be able to bypass that type of an area, or figure out how to buckle down when in an area like that during the hurricane season.

marty

[Zanshin]

Bene505 - I believe that you have it right, with a solid 505 to start from, you have a platform which is sufficient. The design is well-proven and seaworthy and once you get to where you are going the comfort of a 50-footer is going to be superior to what you'll find in a more classical full-keel double ender 40 footer. I am a firm believer that money invested in meteorological training and information systems or in direct communication with a weather router will go a long way in making the most speed and least heavy weather in passages. Even the big jumps across the puddles are now sufficiently covered by weather satellites so that big weather systems are detectable early and the hull speed of a 50 boat (vs. a 30-some footer) is going to be sufficient to flee or avoid these big ones. Smaller systems or fronts are mostly unavoidable but unlikely to be as ferocious or long-lasting as the major ones.

[goboatingnow]

The other fact is that theres no real evidence to suggest that long keel, large wetted area huls are anymore seaworthy then modern underwater profiles. The have to be sailed differently thats all. Equally theres nothing to suggest a Tayana is "actually" stronger then a beneteau. Things like laminate thickness in certain cases can just produce a heavy boat thats all.

Most bluewater arguments come down to individual perspectives, beliefs and marketing. Beneteaus will get you to wherever you want to go. just bear in mind what they are and are not.

[Bene505]

Thanks for the input. I was figuring something like that. And she is so sweet to sail. I ought to measure the wind angle regarding this next part. If memory servers, we had her sailing so high into the wind that we should have brought the jib sheets inboard of the shrouds. This was sailing into Lake Montauk, where you have to sail a route that looks a bit like a question mark.

I can't wait to do more ocean sailing next year, or some more BFS in Long Island sound. This winter will be one of preparation -- diesel classes (see davidpm's thread), rig inspection, life raft inspection, spinnaker repair, fixing a head, putting some new seacocks. I'd like to get everything back to 100%. I also plan to install my fourwinds wind generator, which will require a new charge controller.

I'm thinking of doing the around-long-island race or some other races to build more ocean time. I'll be looking for experienced crew when the time comes.

[tweitz]

Bene505 - When you are looking for crew for that around LI race, keep me in mind. Missed your last trip, but I would love to try your next one. She sounds like a sweet ride.

[chall03]

I have heard talk from a couple of people that the newer Beneteau's now coming out of the factory are not being made to quite the same standards as those 5 -10 years old? Do those in the know, feel there is any truth in this??

Recently A 6 months old Beneteau I was on here in Oz was very noisy under power, The reason? Apparently all the engine bay insulation had to be removed when it was put into charter. The charter surveyor put a lighter to the insulation and it went up in flames. He said he had spoken with the factory about the issue previously but boats were still coming out with this type of insulation still being used.

[Bene505]

If that's true I want to send them an earful. Which charter company was it in Oz? Here's the email I just sent them:

I heard online recently that the engine compartment insulation is now flammable. Is there any truth in this whatsoever? Has it been addressed? Was there any recall or other notice provided to owners? And is my sailbout affected?

Here is what I received:

Recently, a 6 months old Beneteau I was on here in Australia was very noisy under power, The reason? Apparently all the engine bay insulation had to be removed when it was put into charter. The charter surveyor put a lighter to the insulation and it went up in flames. He said he had spoken with the factory about the issue previously but boats were still coming out with this type of insulation still being used.

Regards

Again, if that's true I want to send them an earful. Which charter company was it in Oz?

[chall03]

I just want to clarify this by saying that this is just what was told to me, Its hearsay, and NOT a statement of unequivocal truth......I am not a Beneteau expert and don't have first hand knowledge of their manufacturing practices.....It is just something I heard, nothing more, nothing less.
I am interested to see what you hear back however.
The yacht in question was specifically a Cyclades 434. Maybe it is a problem only with the cheaper made Cyclades series??
I will PM you the name of the charter company, and any other specifics, I don't want to mention someone's small business in such a public forum as this and risk affecting their livelihood....

[skyellab]

Originally Posted by chall03

I just want to clarify this by saying that this is just what was told to me, Its hearsay, and NOT a statement of unequivocal truth......I am not a Beneteau expert and don't have first hand knowledge of their manufacturing practices.....It is just something I heard, nothing more, nothing less.
I am interested to see what you hear back however.
The yacht in question was specifically a Cyclades 434. Maybe it is a problem only with the cheaper made Cyclades series??
I will PM you the name of the charter company, and any other specifics, I don't want to mention someone's small business in such a public forum as this and risk affecting their livelihood....

I have a year old 46 foot Beneteau and I find it quiet, better built than the older ones and a pleasure to be on when ever I have the time.

Any boat is only as good as the amount of time you use it. Not all layouts of all boats are perfect for all people.

[danielgoldberg]

Don't confuse quality production boats with Cementalinas.

I think you are right on so much of this, but I do disagree with a couple of things. For instance, access to systems is a problem on all boats, production or not. Indeed, newer production boats are much better at this (I have never seen a boat with better systems access than the IPs, and that incudes Hinckley, Alden, Shannon, etc.). From my own personal experience, I had to pull apart just about the entire interior of our Freedom to get the fuel tank out when it went bad, I had to lean over the engine to get to the domestic water pump, and there were a few other nice ones (though generally the boat had good access to things I thought). On our new Bene, all the tanks come out easily, all the connections for hoses are easily accessible. I can get at all the pumps, wire hookups, machinery, etc., with a fair amount of ease (the one thing that looks to be nearly impossible is the raw water pump, so changing the impeller ought to be a treat). I think the better production builders no longer bury important stuff under a hull liner.

On the storage, I think that depends on the boat. It's physics, so a 42' boat with an 11' beam simply cannot have more space than a 42' boat with a 14' beam. The smaller boat might use the space better, or it might choose to devote more of that space to storage, but then it has less space elsewhere. Simply must be the case as a matter of physics.

We have great lazerettes on our Bene by the way. Much better than the Freedom.

Now, all that said, I think that the higher end boats you are referencing are better built. They just are, in my view. And I'm not talking about hull thickness. The joinery work is better, the interior tends to be made of better materials and higher grade wood. The fit and finish just tends to be nicer. Details seem to be looked after a bit better, and things like that. But, as you noted, that comes at a cost, and that cost usually translates into dollars, rarely means better performance (not to be confused with a better motion, as that varies tremendously based on the boat's design, including its intended use; there are many high-end expensive performance boats that are built to fantastic standards, but they're uncomfortable as heck), and often takes away from living space.

So in the end, I'm not sure of the point of my post (I've been boxed out of posting for a few days due to a technical glitch, so I'm going through babble withdrawal), cause I do agree with your basic point -- production boats do plenty of things well, and they perform their basic mission better than higher end boats do that same thing (short to medium distance and coastal cruising), but higher end boats are built better and they have several advantages too.

Originally Posted by Cruisingdad

I am going to say again to consider what you are going to use it for and consider the costs to change it from that design.

Let's go through a quick list since I have been actively setting my boat up for long distance cruising - while helping my pops with his. My pops is a Tayana 42 (which does not have any of the associated problems that were mentioned earlier). My boat is a Catalina 400.

I have:

1) Glassed in for a generator. This ate up a lot of space in the lazarette. The Tayana had twice the generator put in and has a LOT more space left over.

2) Added cabinetry. Here is a real downfall for production boats - storage. If you think your production boat has sotrage - think agagin. GO walk a Tayana, a Taswell, a Valiant... etc. You will LOSE stuff in those boats. I am not kidding. Production boats are skimpy on cabinetry because it is expensive and it closes in the space around you. Since most people do not take their production boats long term cruising, it is a waste of money and a deterrent.

3) Systems access. I have found one of the biggest plusses of a "Tayana" type boat versus a production type boat is access to systems. THis is critical. You will be pulling water pumps and new wiring and accessing your tanks, etc. Most of the production builders put these partially (if not completely) under the liner and behind furniture which makes it very difficult to get to.

4) Rudder. Sorry. That is a big one. I have to come up with some sort of rig to steer the boat in case of failure. You lose your rudder you are in deep trouble. Most production boats don't even have skeg hung rudders. That is a concern. Hopefully it is something you will never have to worry about, but it is possible - especially when going over reefs where there is little clearance. You will find many of these reefs and shoals move and judging the height is very difficult. And I cn guarantee you that you will run aground sooner or later.

5) Water and fuel. I feel that a water maker can help to alleviate some of the water concerns. However, you are going to have to find a way to come up with more fuel. You can either mold in another tank or (what I am about to do) add a bladder or two. Many people will line the catwalks with gerry cans (which I have done too), but we were also in a storm once that made me rethink that philosophy. We are lucky the lifelines and/or the cans were not torn loose.

6) Portholes. You might consider changing them to portholes you can screw down like are used on most (if not every) "bluewater" boat.

7) Grounding your boat. I do not think any production boats are grounded.

8) Lifelines. You will find most production lifelines are short (knee height... I forget the measurements) versus the bluewater boats which strike you at the side.

9) Sea berths. You can convert some production boats to a good seaberth midships. We could ours and was one of the principle factors in choosing it over a 42 and some other makes which curve their settees.

10) Great handholds... all the way down the cabin. Don't even get me started.

11) Dorade venting. You will find that when in the warmer climates and in a storm or just in seas with a lot of spray, dorades are a life saver. If you leave the hatches open you will be getting spray down below. In a storm, you simply should not leave them open. It does not take long for it to get reall stemy down there. THat sure does not help for comfort (those cooking or sleeping while off watch) and SURE DOES NOT HELP WITH SEA SICKNESS.

12) Propane tanks/storage. How much propane do you carry? You better have a bunch or more than one locker with a tank.

13) Small Lazarettes. You will need a lot of space in your garage. There simply is no changing this. Few production boats can boast the lazarette that is pretty common on most bluewater boats.

Now, the vast majority of these things I have mentioned are "fixable". THey are things you could do yourself. Some you may find more important and necessary than others - depending on where you are going to go. However, there is more to the productio nboat/blue water boat than simply design (which I stayed away from for the most part). Now once you add up the cost of changing/adding a lot of these systems, you must now ask yourself if you would have been better off (ie, cheaper) just to buy a boat where all of this (and many other things) are done already and you may get the benefit of volume pricing.

I am not beating up production boats. I am not saying you have to do any of these things. I own a production boat and am going cruising on her with my family (wife and 2 kids). I am only trying to point out some things I have learned between the boats as someone pretty darned familiar with both. Everyone thinks their boat is best and that is fine. And in all of this, there are also some great advantages to a "production" boat over a bluewater. Just a few of these are:

1) Price.

2) Performance. I find many/most bluewater boats are S-L-O-W.

3) Liveability. That is the focus on a productio nboat is comfort at the marina and anchor. THat is also where you will spend 99% of your time. THink about that before you buy a bullet-proof shoe box.

4) Parts availability and owners groups. SImply due to the volume, I always know I can get answers from other Catalina owners on my boat. I can also pick up the phone, 5 days a week, and call Gerry or Frank or Warren at Catalina and get detailed answers. That is not an option for many other boats where many are not even be produced anymore.

Boats are tradeoffs. Buy it for the intended purpose. If you want to do more than its intended purpose, just be aware of the difficulties you will encounter. Many of them are listed above.

- CD