No one is actually disputing your expenses. They are "what they are". They are for all of us. I'm a NEW sailor, haven't even put the boat in the water yet. I've already spent (somewhat less than) 10K. My wife and I intially laid out a cost of around 20K for everything from training to buying a first boat.
We're 50% below that and I don't expect any more major expenses until I go to get a bigger boat.
We're working out a budget for that now... and do not expect to actually purchase a boat for at LEAST a year, perhaps three more. So, it's kind of up in the air at the moment. Things could change.
MY issue with your post was the way you directed your message to "All you dreamers".....
THAT's where I have the problem.
Life is complex enough in this day and age for us all, Internet, Satellite TV, GPSes, text messaging, cars with computers that won't start when the battery voltage.
My wife and I are really several years from "retirement". Our "dream" was discussed once or twice some thirty years ago - then life happened, children, major medical issues with some of the kids forcing year long hospital stays, the death of a child, moving constantly for 20 years, finally settling one place, about as freakin' far in the US as you can get from an ocean.
The dream was there in both our heads, but we never really again discussed going sailing, traveling the world or getting out of Colorado. I was resigned to the fact I'd be settling down in "Little House on the Prairie" where my kids and grand kids could come visit me, ride a horse or milk a cow, or shoot some guns, bows and arrows or simply have a good glass of home brew beer or mead.
Then, something clicked one day. My wife and I were discussing that "retirement" and when I asked her what she wanted to do, she said, "I'm not sure what I want to do, but I'll tell you what I DON'T want to do... that's just quit. Stop doing things. I want to travel. "
I asked her, "How would you like to sail?"
She said, "Absolutely. Yes. Let's do that."
There was a bit more discussion of course, about things like RVs and traveling the country and so on, but we both knew deep down that our love for the Caribbean would win out. So it was decided.
The dream, Sir, is becoming real for us, day by day. It's still a few years away, and I've got plenty of work to do - but I've not been sailing for sixty years like you - it's not something which I have "grown tired" or doing yet, and certainly it isn't something with which we've become jaded seeing others let their boats rot.
I've seen enough nonsense and crap, death and destruction in my life to last several lifetimes - and I want to do something *I* want to do, not "work for the government" or "be on call". I don't give a damned how much I end up spending and I don't really want someone to kick me in the gonads and tell me to "quit dreaming".
That's my gripe with you. And it's one I'll stand here and tell EVERYONE that you're wrong about.
You're wrong.
As others have already said in different ways, it's not the cost of doing something that you enjoy, rather it is the priceless memories and experiences you gain that make you a better person for what you're doing.
With that I'll tell you we'd decided on a name for the boat - from a Buffet song - and I'm certainly not (as most know) an Obama fan with his "Change" crap he pushed on the public... but the "Winds of Change" is the name of the boat and that's what it'll remain.
Rick
yes and yes ! that is my problem with this self elected lecturer ,[EDIT-JRP] .. if you read my prev posts.
When you stop dreaming mind is well put a bullet to your head
I hope all your plan come to reality and spend that money ! go sailing
wish you fair wind my friend
the Witch
Last edited by JohnRPollard : 01-05-2009 at 07:07 PM.
Reason: No personal attacks
In buying a used boat, insist the seller provide both a marine and an engine survey , both to be acceptable to the buyer before closing the deal.
Otherwise you can be exposed to some nasty and expensive surprises, incl.
difficulty obtaining insurance. A one owner boat that has been very well
maintained are a big plus, and worth a premium.
A survey provided by the SELLER (or broker) is generaly considered to be worthless. A buyer wants a survey that is totally objective with no chance of collusion or intentional omission--and that means the surveyor should be chosen and hired by the BUYER, never the seller.
All depends who you are dealing with, can only give you the Canadian
prospective. A Marine Surveyor of impecable reputation, will not compromise this reputation with a less than professional and impartial survey. I'm sure you can find a lees than honest surveyor, but not easy to find here.
In buying a used boat, insist the seller provide both a marine and an engine survey , both to be acceptable to the buyer before closing the deal.
Otherwise you can be exposed to some nasty and expensive surprises, incl.
difficulty obtaining insurance. A one owner boat that has been very well
maintained are a big plus, and worth a premium.
Whha what a wisdom .... isn't this "revelation" is a given ? why post when nothing to say ... ? sorry chap , but your post is like telling people if you don't breath in you will die ...
PS
reputable surveyors are non bias, and it is incorrect to say seller survey or brokers survey worth less ..not i the broker reputable, or the surveyor is a registered surveyor
TexasLongHorn -- I think you caught Capt'n Fred's major mistake. He's counted depreciation twice (and pretty high at that). Here's my take on his numbers:
Buy the boat:..................$20,000
5 years slip + insurance:....$16,000
Total cost:......................$36,000
Sell at end:....................-$14,500
Net cost:........................$21,500
Cost/year.........................$4,300
About the lowest price I've seen for a bareboat charter is $2500 per week, and if you fly your family to one of those great cruising grounds, you'd get about a week per year for this amount of money.
I look at this the other way. For the price of chartering for a single week, you can pay for your own boat that you can use any day you want for at least several months per year.
Yes, as Fred points out, you can reduce your costs by sharing a boat with others. But if you want to share a boat with others, buying a fractional share will get you a lot more sailing for a lot less money. Plus this way you don't have to spend your single sailing week per year with people you're only sailing with to save a buck.
Capt'n Fred -- I think your 20% estimate for depreciation is pretty severe. Powerboats and racing sailboats, maybe, family cruisers, definitely not. Here's some values for Catalina 36s I pulled out of the BUC book a year and a half ago:
It's easy to get a BUC or NADA book and trace back different boat models. It'd be even more accurate to calculate based on the initial purchase price rather than today's purchase price.
Purchase price (all in, including tax, and survey): $6000.00
(misc. costs omitted)
New cradle: $1248
Haulout costs and winter storage: $498
Insurance: $175
Total $9995.75
Number of days spent on boat: 98
Number of nights spent on boat:36
Number of miles sailed: 374 (we're not passagemakers...yet.)
So, I figure that it cost me just a little more than $100/ "boat day" to enjoy my boat this summer, without getting fancy with hypothetical depreciation calculations, forward calculating maintenance, deducting one time costs such as purchase price and cradle, etc.
Let me get fancy here.
$9995.75 - $6000 boat - $1248 cradle = $2747.75 expenses the first year. (I expect your expenses next year will be less.)
My take on this is that Capn' Fred...Welcome Fred.
Thank you very much. While I understand my advice is opinionated, I don't hide that, and yet I try to not give anyone bad advice. Advising people thinking about boating, are dreaming about it but honestly have no idea how much it will cost, even for a small boat in a marina, is not necessarily going to make them want to rush out and buy a boat even more, but it is a warning, and I don't think its bad advice to consider. Thank you for the welcome. As for the ads, as I said, I posted the whole article here, there are no ads or anything here.
If anyone thinks I'm getting rich off the ads, I'm not, they don't even pay for the $10/mo I pay for web hosting, and that cost is going to go up because Im planning on adding video tutorials and such. I was hoping it would at least pay for the hosting.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterView
Captain Fred, Welcome to Sailnet.
Don't take some of these guys to heart. They treat most new people the same way. It's their way of welcoming you to the site and hoping that you stick around.
Thank you! This is nothing though. When I was depth charged in Singtao Harbor in '55 in a sub, they said that was just the Chinese welcoming us!
Quote:
Originally Posted by therapy23
One bit of data for you.
THANK YOU! Do you mind if I use these numbers and your quote in a chartering article I'm writing? They're pretty close to what I'm finding and I'd like to have a couple of personal examples to post as well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CalebD
Y'all better lay off Cap'n Fred.
Thank you Never thought in a million years my advice would spark so many opinions to come out.. positive and negative. Its all great to see, and hopefully will make some people galvanize their desire to go sailing and just wear the costs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by poopdeckpappy
...Now that's roughly what I figured I'd spend over the next 5 yr period until I was complete (to our satisfaction) with the boat, but in reality it may remain this amount and maybe more.
Exactly, those costs can add up. I think anyone smart enough to set aside a budget to sail with is going to end up somewhere in good shape. Many people, however, simply can't afford 10 G's to get a sailboat ready to do some serious cruising. The point of the article is to get those people to commit their dream to the idea that just because the boat is cheap and the wind is free, doesn't mean it won't take some serious bucks to make that dream reality. And really, we're not talking hundreds here, were talking about thousands of dollars, that's why its so important to get novices ready to spend that money wisely. So that they don't rush in, but a boat, find out they can't afford it, sell the boat, and have a bad experience that sours their taste for sailing. I just saw that happen. It was really sad.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrcottonsparrot
but i don't want to wind up with an unanticipated repair, or major issue that knocks me out of the picture. so its good to hear the worst about what can be. good to be informed. if the truth scares you back onto the sofa, maybe you don't have the heart to be worthy to ply the seas.
Thank you. I hope it really does give you some ammo to use towards a wonderful lifetime of sailing!
Quote:
Originally Posted by mikehoyt
While my experience the numbers are not the same it is good sober advice for anyone thinking of getting into boating. I rather doubt anyone will get to this point in the thread but here goes my example...
Thank you for that and some very good points as well. Many hobbies do cost a lot, but unlike boating, the costs of those things are not so hidden, much more straightforward. Aside from getting yourself to the mountain, to go skiing there really isn't much cost besides the skiis and the ticket. Sure, there are side things like clothes, food, lodging, maintenance, etc. But theres no insurance, storage fees, etc. Novices don't really know you have to have the bottom cleaned, get new bottom paint, buy sails/replace on a regular basis, that slips are maybe more expensive than they are thinking, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by seawitch1906
You call your self a sailor
I am a sailor.
Quote:
yet giving advices unsolicited ..
That's right. I'm 70, I've always wanted to give my advice to people on sailing topics, and now I'm doing it. Instead of writing a book and charging for it, or making a how-to video and selling it, I'm writing and writing and writing, hoping so save some novices from mistakes, and to help experienced sailors get some reaffirming opinions and maybe learn some new things.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamsailor
Here are my two cents.
VERY interesting points. I agree on all of it. I hope to pass some of it on in future posts on my blog. The main point also being, it just ain't the same world it was in my day. I remember so many people building boats in vacant lots that I couldn't keep track. I loved wandering down near the marinas, so much going on. Today's generations want plug and play, hands off, brains on activities for the most part. But you know, thats good AND bad. Thats definitely a topic for a future post.
Quote:
Originally Posted by knothead
Sailing for the average man will never die. As long as there is water, trees and freedom. Men will sail.
THAT is a GREAT quote. Thank you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tweitz
The OP is right, newbies can naively mistake the purchase price for the cost of owning a boat. But if you have the great luck of being able to afford it, sailing is wonderful and I love the fact that our boat is really ours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JimsCAL
Sailing can be expensive, but there are ways to reduce the costs.
Absolutely, there are ways to beat the system. I hope to get into that in a future article and how to get the most out of your boating adventure for cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arunas
Sailing it is not a money it live style, if you are thinking about money, depreciation, better not to start sail.Arunas
Thank you, but I don't agree. If you do figure on the costs going in, you can be MUCH closer to achieving your goals than if you have no idea what you're getting into.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamsailor
I do not dispute sailing costs a lot of money nor do I dispute that it is worth it if you like or love the sport/lifestyle. For the situation here in the mid-atlantic/north east--The bottom line is the average financial resources available for this lifestyle or for anything requiring disposable income is decreasing. This is a fact on the ground. Furthermore, in my opinion, I believe this will be the situation for the foreseeable future.
Very good point, and goes with what was said above.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sailormann
A charter vessel is a prostitute of the seas - available to anyone with sufficient cash, aging rapidly and of suspect integrity.
My boat is faithful to me, available to no-one else regardless of how much cash they wave about, and I know every inch of her to be strong and unsullied.
Thats hilarious, never though of a chartered boat as a prostitute. To be honest, I've only ever chartered well cared for boats, I assume the rental costs go to regular upkeep easily. But I agree, and own two sailboats at the moment, and love them both.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N0NJY
No one is actually disputing your expenses. They are "what they are". They are for all of us. I'm a NEW sailor, haven't even put the boat in the water yet. I've already spent (somewhat less than) 10K. My wife and I intially laid out a cost of around 20K for everything from training to buying a first boat.
...
MY issue with your post was the way you directed your message to "All you dreamers".....
...
The dream, Sir, is becoming real for us, day by day. It's still a few years away, and I've got plenty of work to do - but I've not been sailing for sixty years like you - it's not something which I have "grown tired" or doing yet, and certainly it isn't something with which we've become jaded seeing others let their boats rot.
... I don't give a damned how much I end up spending and I don't really want someone to kick me in the gonads and tell me to "quit dreaming".
[snip] You're wrong.
Obviously, I don't think so.
You went in assuming you would spend 20k on an under 10k boat. Thats very realistic. You're not the dreamer sitting at his desk dreaming of lazy summer days on a boat, you assigned a realistic number to it. Those others need an advice article like mine to get up to speed. If you told some that a $5k boat would end up costing over $15k, they simply can't afford that. Not that they don't want to or will stop dreaming, just currently, they cant afford it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by k1vsk
rhis whole discussion seems pretty silly. The term "expensive" is a relative one and no two people define it the same way. Also, not everyone has the same perception of value or money in general. Just because one person expresses his personal viewpoint doesn't make it either tight or wrong - just his.
What is wrong here is the apparent attempt for one person to apply his values on the rest of us.
I agree with all of this. I'm writing my advice based on my many years of owning a boat. Read it or not, agree or not, its your choice. Maybe the article doesn't even apply to you because you're a dreamer who knows what you're getting into. Just know that in this thread alone there have been several responses from novices and recent owners who are thankful to have this information, or grateful that in the past, they were warned. That's all I'm aiming for, to help those out who have the sailing "bug" but honestly don't know all they will have to spend money on, or exactly how much it will cost. They want to know. I'm trying to give them some basic numbers and advice to work with.
Quote:
So - folks, my thinking is, Cap'n Fred came here, NOT to convince us to "let the dream go" or "that things are too expensive...." - perhaps he did come here to get his opinion across. And PERHAPS, like Santa Claus, he sneaked in, in the middle of the night to spark a few more dreams for some of you who are constantly whining about expensive this or that is
Wake up and smell the coffee, ladies and gents. Methinks he is using some kind of retro-reverse-psychology on us all!
Rick
Man, what a 180. That is sort of what I wanted to do here. There were some that just got really peeved that I addressed dreamers and told them it was going to be expensive. All I want them to do is say "yeah but I really want to do it, no matter the costs!" I hope that it has that effect on you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by avoisine
Fred thanks for the advice. Al
No problem, thank you for leaving a comment on my blog. I hope what I wrote back gives you somethings to start with. Please keep us informed!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSBN506
My point is it is different for all people and we get what we can afford. For me I would rather own an old BMW or boat then Rent a new one.
All excellent points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailChick20
Captain Obvious does have a valid point or two....it seems as though many people do tend to just jump in, before considering all costs and actual time available to use it. Fools in that category have made their own bed, IMO.
Pour moi, a GenX/Y...the cost is ridiculous, yes....but, I would pay much more to keep what I get back from sailing.
...Happy New Year, SN!
-Kristen
The article should be obvious to most experienced sailors, they already know how much it costs!
Happy New Year to you too!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardiacpaul
And I am green with envy every of one of those bas***ds.
Just get on one of them things and never look back!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joesaila
A boat is a hole in the water...I would not want to be without. Especially my sailboat. I can spend money on enjoying it, or leave the dough in a bank. While its better logic to always 'count the cost', I'm committed to enjoying life now.
Good idea. Life is short, its better to spend it on the water.
Thank you all for your thoughts on this. I had no idea it would spark such debate and produce so many opinions and reactions.
I really hope the article serves as a base for some novices to make a more educated decision, avoid a souring experience, and that it further drills home the commitment - the same I've had for 64 years - its all worth it... sailing is a lifestyle you COMMIT to. I hope everyone has many great sailing days in 2009!
That's funny, my definition for that title was always the backpacker girls that offer to jump you on a regular basis if you take them cruising the Whitsundays with you....
There is also the "welcoming committee" at the conclusion of a particlar race, but they are more "...of the dock" then the seas. I am also reasonably sure they do not charge, so bad example.
That's funny, my definition for that title was always the backpacker girls that offer to jump you on a regular basis if you take them cruising the Whitsundays with you....
There is also the "welcoming committee" at the conclusion of a particlar race, but they are more "...of the dock" then the seas. I am also reasonably sure they do not charge, so bad example.
SASHA, PM me now I require further information. I am now home ported in Brisbane. Whitsundays are very close. PM ME ASAP.
__________________
Simon Ericson 39B.
I love my boat S/V GOODONYA Brisbane present location Moreton Bay Queensland
YACHT BROKER
