Owning a Boat is EXPENSIVE!

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by CaptainFredGreenfield

How much would you pay for a 310 after 5 years with the engine needing servicing, noticeable wear and tear on everything, a sail or two damaged, its dirty, bottom hasn't been cleaned in who knows how long, zincs haven't been changed and possibly other issues?

GIVE ME A NUMBER!

Of course Fred you're right as always. My answer to the above is NOT MUCH! That is called NEGLECT! Perhaps you should put a detailed piece on your site about how to properly care for your vessel to reduce MASSIVE depreciation by NEGLECT.

You STILL missed my whole point after reading that and I will not address it again if your reading comprehension has not yet picked up on it.

In 2001 a new 310 was about 92-97k now they are asking 69k that is an asking price of less than 30% depreciation over EIGHT YEARS!!! Again following your "blanket" applied depreciation schedule, for new boats, it should look like this:

Year 0 97k purchase
Year 1 -30% = 67.9k
Year 2 -20% = 54.3k
Year 3 -10% = 48.8k
Year 4 -10% = 44k
Year 5 -10% =39.6k
Year 6 -10% =35.6k
Year 7 -10% =32k
Year 8 -10% =28.8k


Please re-read my post and see if you GET where we disagree? As I said before BOATING IS EXPENSIVE but your depreciation schedule is flat out OUT OF WHACK when used in the fashion you did, as BLANKET STATEMENT. Remember I used your own 2001 reference boat as an example above to display test your model and show just how off it is. Blanket statements like that will scare people away from boating!

This is all I ask of you and I noted that you purposely left it out of your above post:

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Perhaps saying: "First year depreciation, depending upon location, boat and how you maintain it, could range from as little as 3% to as much as 30% and second year depreciation could range from 3% to as much as 20% and year three and beyond can range from about 1% to 10% per year". Blanket statements, that scare folks, are not what we need to grow this dying sport!

If you maintain your boat to a high standard, which DOES cost money, you will and can minimize losses. If you treat your boat like a floor matt then it will be reflected in your tail end losses...

You state this stuff like it is fact when it is not and there are many variables that come into play, as you yourself have admitted to and stated. My neighbor sold his Sabre 362 for 32k more than he had into it, at the end of the first seasons ownership. At the time Sabre could not build them fast enough and a guy contacted him and made him an offer he could not refuse. Your statement of fact to assign a 20-30% depreciation for the first year is NOT standard. Can it happen yes but in more cases than not the boats retain value much better than that. I suggest you get a password to Soldboats.com and do some research using actual data used by the industry before making blanket statemenst of fact to "newbies" who may actually belive this to be true in ALL cases...

Here's how you came on here and your statement written as fact:

Originally Posted by CaptainFredGreenfield

DON'T FORGET DEPRECIATION

Assign 30% depreciation for the first year on a new boat, 20% for the second year (Or the first year on a used boat ) and 10% (of the original price) for each year thereafter. At some point the depreciation will taper off, but the maintenance will escalate to make up for it.

here's where you are now (if your initial data set was good why the change?):

Originally Posted by CaptainFredGreenfield

DON'T FORGET DEPRECIATION

Assign 20-30% depreciation for the first year on a new boat, 10-20% for the second year (Or the first year on a used boat ) and 5-10% (of the original price) for each year thereafter. At some point the depreciation will taper off, but the maintenance will escalate to make up for it. For the sake of argument, I will remain conservative and use the maximum depreciation scale. These numbers are adjustable by the boat - some will be 25% less depending on the covetability of that boat.

Neglect and depreciation are not one in the same. Neglect results in depreciation but all things being equal all boats DO NOT depreciate by 20-30%, as you factually stated they do in the first year.

Do you consider crashing your car into a light pole in the parking lot, and not fixing it before selling it, depreciation? Sure it resulted in a loss of value, for the reason of neglect, but it is not normal depreciation as defined by NADA, or KBB. The same can be said for a boat. If an owner rubs the dock every time he comes in and does not fix the damage or rips a sail and does not fix it or does not change zincs and ruins the engine this is neglect which causes a loss in value. This would not be a NORMAL depreciation schedule as defined by the IRS.

If I wreck my company car, do not fix it, and then sell it at a loss and it has not yet depreciated by IRS standards I can't take the additional neglect loss.. You are confusing loss in value by neglect and normal depreciation of a below average, average or above average condition vessel. A truly neglected boat does not fit into a below average condition category, it falls into a neglected category. Depending upon the level of neglect the sky is the limit on loss where it is generally not for a below average, average or above average boat..

[bubb2]

For what it is worth, I just went on yacht world and checked the asking prices for my 10 year old Bendy toy! They are ranging from $5,000 less than the new price to about half of the new boat price.

I keep my boat better than most , but I am not fanatic about it. So if we split the difference and I can get 75% of my new boat price back after 10 years, I am a happy camper.

[betodas]

If I run outside and shoot myself, I'm blaming it on this thread. LOL

I am a power boat owner who has fallen in love with being out in the water. I go out a couple of days per week.
I've been out on a sailboat a few times recently and now I'm dreaming of buying a sailboat next. Of course a small one to do all my learning. I do spend a lot of money on my small power boat but mostly because I love it. I'm at all the different boat stores almost every day buying things I (don't really) need for the boat.
My question is for anybody who has both a power and Sail boat. Is there a big difference in maintenance costs between the two?
I really want to learn to sail and will probably buy a small one I can trailer (until I get good enough and comfortable enough to buy a "real" boat).
I definately get CaptFred's point. I'm wasting a lot more than I originally thought. But I love it and don't mind.

[rayncyn51]

I'm a new guy. One poster says one thing about the cost of owning a boat, and a whole boatyard full of posters say something else. Who should I believe?

This is turning into a rather long and circular thread. As for me, if I can't afford my boat, I'll probably sell my house so I can afford my boat. Owning a boat requires a bit of passion, which, in my estimation, doesn't depreciate, nor does it require manitenance. How then, can we put a dollar value on that which we love?

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by rayncyn51

if I can't afford my boat, I'll probably sell my house so I can afford my boat. Owning a boat requires a bit of passion, which, in my estimation, doesn't depreciate, nor does it require manitenance. How then, can we put a dollar value on that which we love?

"Hello my name is Maine Sail and I am addicted to boating."

"Hi Maine Sail welcome to Boaters Anonymous!"

Welcome to BA rayncyn!! It's very tough disease to cure but still may, and I use the word "may" carefully, be less financially devastating than being a Gamblers Anonymous member...

[N0NJY]

Man, what a 180. That is sort of what I wanted to do here. There were some that just got really peeved that I addressed dreamers and told them it was going to be expensive. All I want them to do is say "yeah but I really want to do it, no matter the costs!" I hope that it has that effect on you!

There was no 180 turn there Fred.

Like you, I have a lot of years in observing people, and my exeperiences while different from yours, are just as important to myself (and I hope to others).

I write - probably more than you do and I was giving you crap in the beginning because of the way you implied your inital story. "Dreamers shouldn't be dreaming" is what you appeared to be saying.

I KNOW and UNDERSTAND you're attempting to impart some wisdom to us all. But, you started this little adventure 60 years ago. Some of us are in our fifties and sixties and we're just starting. We don't really want to hear from someone who is telling us that it's "too expensive to start".

By the time we "save enough money" we're not going to get it done at our ages. I'm not willing to wait any longer. The "dream" is there and it's going to happen, regardless of all the naysayers on this site (and you're NOT the only one....)

Finally - I'm trying to give you a break when I made my remarks. I KNOW what you're trying to do.

My advice though, to you, is write that book AS WELL.

[Maine Sail]

The best money you can spend before selling would be on a full detail by or yourself a qualified marine detailer.

I would focus on the following items in the detail.

#1 Hull - Needs to be shiny and as close to new as is humanly possible. Compounding & polishing or one of the acrylics like Poli-Glow are huge pluses.

#2 Boot stripe - Must be cleaned of any tannin or rust staining if it is painted and showing it's age paint it.

#3 Canvas - Glass should be clear and the canvas should be repelling water 303 Fabric Guard will re-waterproof and Imar Strataglass cleaner is a great product for the glass.

#4 Boat bottom - Prop should be clean as should the shaft and have a new zinc thrown on. If on the hard it should be prepped and ready for pain or already painted if you have been using a multi-season ablative. Little details like this make can make a big impression.

#5 Deck - Should be clean, sooth areas should be waxed with a produt designed for waxing decks like Woody Wax.

#6 Metal - Should be shiny and free of rust spots

#7 Portlights / Hatches - Should also be shiny and a good plastic polish will achieve this.

#8 Interior - Every nook and cranny should be cleaned of any mold or dirt & grime and it should smell fresh and clean.

#9 Bilge - It should be clean and eat out of it spotless! This is a huge thing for many buyers as a clean bilge has been known to represent a well cared for boat. It is one of the first things many experienced buyers look when entering a boat.

#10 Engine / Engine Room - Should also be spotless showing no oil drips or fan belt residue. Any rust should be coated with Boeshield or similar to make it less "offensive". If rust is real bad it should be painted with Ospho or similar then matching color engine paint.

#11 Ice Box - Clean and NO mold with hinges and latches working.

#12 Lines & Running Rigging - If dirty they should be washed in a front loader with Ivory Snow, Dreft or other non-detergent cleaners and a very small amount of bleach. This can be done easily in a mesh bag.

#13 Engine Oil - Must be clean and recently changed with a record book showing maintenance records.

#14 Maintenance Records / Manuals - Should be available and in a three ring binder for inspection. It is a good idea to display these on the nav table or the salon table.

#15 Lockers & Stowage - Remove anything you are not selling with the boat and organize every locker & cabinet to show & display maximum storage space. Get rid of any personal clutter.

#16 Personal Items - Remove any personal efects not transferring with the boat.

#17 Spares - Organize any spare parts or parts transferring with the sale and organize and label them.

#18 Electrical - Everything should work and you should test everyhthing to prevent surprises. Any loose or sloppy wires shoul be bundled and neatend up with zip ties.

#19 Sails - Sails should be available for inspection but not on board. They clutter up the interior and signifigant others can have a tough time seeing past this clutter.

#20 Upgrades List - A complete list of every upgrade, or maintenance item, and approximate dates should be sitting on the galley counter or chart table.

#21 Screw holes - Cover them, hide them or put a scew in them it looks better than an empty screw hole.

#22 Seacocks & Hoses - All hoses should be visuallu inspected and wiped clean. ArmourAll does amazing things to dirty old hoses. Hose clamps should be clean and rust free. Seacocks should be labeled and open and close freely.

#23 Anchor Locker - Should be clean and the rode should also be washed if nylon. A dirty muddy chain and rode does not convey confidence in upkeep & maintenance.

#24 Lifelines - Should be cleaned, Magic Erasers work great for this, and any signs of rust should be cleaned.

#25 Wood - Exterior wood should be touched up if varnished or if real bad stripped and treated with teak oil. Teak oil takes very little effort to do and makes a HUGE differece when comparedd to peeling varnish or gray weathered teak. Interior wood should be touched up if varnished and then treated with a product like Orange Glo (LINK). If the finish is oiled it should be cleaned and then re-oiled with a product like Weimans Lemon Oil (LINK). Neither Weiman's or Orange Glo contain any silicone and are good silicone free choices!


By spending the relatively minimal funds to get the above things done it will return much more money than doing nothing. Unfortunately, or fortunately for owners that do this, most owners never take the time to make their vessel ready for sale or staged. This stuff is easy to do! Is a day or two of your time worth another 2, 4, 6, 10 or even 20k more in re-sale value?? Clean boats sell and they sell for more money and faster this is why it is always nearly impossible to find one!!

You only get the opportunity to make a first impression once!

[N0NJY]

Originally Posted by CaptainFredGreenfield

So answer this:

How much is a $20k boat worth after 5 seasons seeing 60 days a season onboard, with no cleaning, maintenance, upgrades, etc?

MY feeling is, that boat is going to be trashed. You'll be LUCKY if its worth 60% of its original value, and that's assuming you didn't BREAK anything. Everything will be worn substantially.

So then, how much is that same boat worth if you maintain it to its original condition, maybe you add a small something here or there as an upgrade? Probably close to its original price.

The question that my article, and what I've spent a lot of posts trying to help many here who don't seem to be getting it is - that maintenance is EXPENSIVE. So are the slip fees and insurance. It all adds up and the longer you keep the boat, the more that number adds up on paper.

That has been my point since post #1 - Pay it in depreciation after 5 years of total neglect and usage what would you say... 30% depreciation? 40%? 50%? Try to honestly answer that question.

As many have said here, we buy distress saled boats where the last owner got in over their head and is wearing that boat and can't afford it. In the case of my Coronado, I bought it for 2,000. In working clean condition its worth 8-12k. How much depreciation is that? You tell me.

And as I said originally, you are arguing about 5 or 10 % depreciation. Even if I'm 50% wrong, were talking a difference of a few thousand maybe. AGAIN thats not the cost I have been talking about since post #1. I'm talking about those TENS OF THOUSANDS you will spend on simply docking the boat, hauling it for storage, getting the bottom cleaned, etc. etc. Basic costs.

That is stuff that a novice doesn't think about.

What, precisely, is a "novice" in this aspect?

The boat I bought a few months ago hasn't hit the water yet. It is CLEANER now than it was when I bought it. It's had repairs that it needed, the previous owner didn't do.

I've never owned a boat, until now. The previous owner has been a boat owner most of his life, living in the Louisiana Area most of his life, and has owned several boats.

The one I got from his had not been well cared for, and he let several things just "go" (the standing rigging was in poor shape - and wood was never stained or varnished. There are a dozen other things that needed taking care of, which a "non-Novice" didn't DO).

So... I guess a lot of people take exception to this idea that those who are "new to something don't think it through".

As far as I am concerned, buying a boat and getting out there to sail is MORE important than any money I eventually get back out of the boat.

The exception to this will be when we start our long-term cruising. The boat obviously won't care for itself, my wife and I have to do that. I don't intend to give money to "charter captains" to take us places, and I'm damned sure not going to waste money on bare boating (more than a couple times) in my life.

The money it costs to charter a boat is better spent, in my opinion on training, your OWN boat, and your OWN purposes, rather than giving it to someone else to have for themselves. (IF I were to place my OWN boat in charter - which I have already looked at, I would be expecting to have it MAKE me some money, not LOSE me some money).

Finally... If I were to apply the same reasoning you've been applying to Amateur Radio - I'd not be helping ANYONE to join the ranks of radio amateurs in the world, I'd be discouraging them.

[Cope44]

Zang, I almost missed the party.

My thoughts are most folks here who sell their boats will do so for more than they paid. Everyone on this site has love for their boat. We come here to learn about fixing and upgrading our boats.
I don't get the feeling that these are the boats that sit and rot at the dock.

I already posted here that my boat has gained value. When I look at Main sail's #'s it gives me even greater hope that IF I ever sell this boat, it will be for much more that I paid for it. (It was free) With the knowledge on this site almost any one can take an old derelict and with some love and time breath new life into her.

After you spend some time here you will see the legnths gone to by the people here. Do not forget when you buy a sailboat you get more than the boat. You get a new/Extended family.

How much is that worth?
At what rate do friendships devalue?

This info would be better received on a different site, say one where folks knew nothing about sailing.

[NCC320]

On the issue that owning a boat is expensive.....It's not free, nor is any other hobby or sport that you really pursue. While it's wise to consider costs, don't destroy the dreams of would be newbies who want to enter sailing before they start. My experience:

Within the range of boats that I have owned, I found that expense more or less goes up with the size of the boat. So if expense will be an issue, stay small. Smaller boats are fun also. You will not be able to cross oceans, but you will find an ease of sailing that many big boats don't. Each has it's own rewards, but often somewhat different.

If you need to keep the costs low, you will notice a significant jump in annual costs (at a real gain in convenience) when you move from a trailerable boat to an in-water boat. The in-water boat brings slip fees and haul out/bottom paint costs. After you are permanently in the water, costs go up somewhat proportionally to increased size. I don't know about really big boats, but I suspect the costs are much higher than the increase in size because most people owning such boats will tend to keep things more pristine and do almost all work using the yard.

I've owned or own the following:

!988 Sunfish (14 ft). Bought used in 1989, paid $1,000, bought trailer several years later $350. Actually is my son's boat. Still own it today. Expenses: $35 for a jam cleat pivot, insurance is home owners policy, so $0. Property taxes ~$35 per year. 20 years ownership and counting.

1970 Venture 24. Bought new, paid $3,900. Kept it 5 years and sold for $5,000. Paid lot storage of ~$35 per month, insurance was no additional cost on my home policy. Maintence items other than soap and water for cleaning, maybe $250 - $300 total for the five years (paint the trailer, 1 new winch cable, a homemade trailer tongue extension, a few tubes of caulk for a leaky swing keel pivot ....new boat, no real maintenance)

1977 Kells 28. Bought new, paid $14,000. Kept it 23 years and sold for $8,500. I checked price on used market during that time, and in the mid period, the resale value was more than I intially paid. The boat, when sold, had some interior issues (that a good DIY could easily handle..I am not a DIY). Also, windows had aged and were ready for replacement. Book value was about $11,500. I discounted it to move it quickly (had another boat on the way) and to cover the anticipated repairs. Annual costs were slip fees of roughly $750 per year, insurance of $320 per year, haul out, bottom painting and hull wax (by yard) $1,000 every 2-3 years. No real maintence problems in those years...bilge pumps, float swiches occasionally, two fuel pumps, exhaust connector, Grp 24 battery every 2-3 years, oil changes, etc... estimate $100 - $200 per year, property taxes ~$200 per year.

2000 Catalina 320. Bought new, paid $80,000. Was looking at a 93-94 model used, dealer explained that I could buy new for just a bit more than the used ones at that time. Still own the boat. Spent perhaps $1,000 on items I added after purchase over the years. In 9 years, no maintenance problems (resew jib cover, resew bimini seam, replace plastic bimini buckles, occasional oil change, engine alignment, replace batteries ($350). On the used market, boats of similar age and equipment, are listed for ~$69K - $80K.
Haul boat every 2 years, paint bottom, wax hull, replace zincs $1200-$1600 each time. Insurance $450 per year. Property Tax ~$400 per year. Slip fees about $2,000 per year.

2001 Catalina 22, bought new $18,300 (includes replacing outboard motor that was stolen). Co-owned with my son. When in water, slip fees $1600 per year, insurance $250 per year.....now on trailer, no slip fees, no storage fee.
Taxes ~$100 per year. Added perhaps $500 in items after boat purchased. No maintenance costs so far...but battery needs replacing ($60). Resales are hard to find, but seem to be about $16,500.

So the costs are not so terrible. All in all, a nice sport at reasonable cost if you keep it simple.

If you go really inexpensive and buy a old, small boat at $1000 - $2000, you'll have to spend money to bring it up to serviceable condition, but if you do the job correctly, you will recover most when you sell it. For project boats just don't do what happened to the Kells 28 (see post Project Boat? - sad case of K28) in buying boats section.