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  #171  
Old 01-07-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamsailor View Post
Okay--so from all this talk it seems:

1) If one wants to sail--there is a way to do it;

2) What and how you sail is based on your budget; and

3) Interest/passion for the sport/lifestyle will drive 1 & 2.

-- I can live with that.
And there you have it.
Perfect.

Thank you.

I will now unsubscribe to this thread because I can't read people saying the same thing with different words and pretending to disagree any more.
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  #172  
Old 01-08-2009
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I like my boat. I'm poor. I'm OK. It appreciates in sentimental value every time I step aboard. I am proud to be Financially Independent (FREE OF MONEY)


Now, there's a guy who will soon figure out the meaning of life............. minutes before he passes out in a hamock from too much sun & rum
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  #173  
Old 01-08-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poopdeckpappy View Post
Now, there's a guy who will soon figure out the meaning of life............. minutes before he passes out in a hamock from too much sun & rum
We got a guy down the dock from us just like that. He's an alcoholic, however!!
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  #174  
Old 01-08-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainFredGreenfield View Post
So answer this:
How much is a $20k boat worth after 5 seasons seeing 60 days a season onboard, with no cleaning, maintenance, upgrades, etc?
I don't know about where you are, but boats that see "no cleaning, maintenance, upgrades" in five years are not the norm anywhere I've been (with the possible exception of some of the free anchorages in Florida).

In fact, I'd call them the bottom 1-2% of sailboats.

I understand your purpose in writing your advice article, but I think you'd be more convincing giving typical experiences with boats.

For instance, say that like any other physical asset, boats come with ongoing expenses, e.g.,
- regular cleaning,
- wax once or twice a year,
- engine oil & filter changes semi-annually,
- insurance,
- mooring or slip rental and possibly winter storage,
- haul and bottom paint every year or two,
- a coat of varnish on brightwork once or twice a year,
- make provision for longer term replacements:
--- dacron sails may have a useful life of 4000 hours
--- wire rope standing rigging should be professionally inspected at 10 years
--- older engines may need valve jobs and other serious maintenance
--- deck fittings should be rebedded every 5-10 years

and so on...

Then, rather than some blanket statement that a sailboat costs $X per year, let people know what's involved and let them figure out if it's in their budgets for the boat they have their eye on.

And let them know that except for the wealthiest sailors, we all do some degree of our own maintenance and save on the cost. Point out the resources available, for instance, all the books and magazines and sites like this that cover boat maintenance.

I'll also suggest getting away from those "the boat costs $X per year, if it is not sold after 5 years" statements. They're meaningless. For instance, would you say a $250,000 house costs $50,000 per year if you don't sell it after 5 years?

Quote:
As many have said here, we buy distress saled boats where the last owner got in over their head and is wearing that boat and can't afford it. In the case of my Coronado, I bought it for 2,000. In working clean condition its worth 8-12k. How much depreciation is that? You tell me.

(snip)

That is stuff that a novice doesn't think about.
I've seen a lot of run down boats, and the only two stories I've run across is either:
  1. The boat's been owned for decades by the same guy, who's gotten old and doesn't have the interest or energy to maintain it, or the heart to sell it (a variation is a useless kid inherits a good boat and lets it go to pot), or,
  2. Someone buys a boat on a whim, takes it out a time or two and realizes they just don't like it, then lets it sit until they're forced to sell.
I haven't yet seen a run down boat that was that way because the novice owner wasn't keeping it cleaned and maintained due to cost.

If it was the novice buyers getting into financial trouble and losing their boats, you'd expect lots of repossesions. But it doesn't seem to be happening. If fact, maybe the opposite is the case. Soundings magazine in August interviewed a boat repo man:

Quote:
ďI would say 99 percent of the time the boats repossessed are power, and Iíve been in the business for 16 years,Ē Ferguson, 50, says. ďI canít say for sure why, but it seems that those looking for a sailboat are more cautious buyers.Ē
What's the ratio of powerboats to sailboats? About 90:10? It appears that sailors just aren't getting into the financial difficulty that your article suggests.

And in this thread we haven't seen droves of novice sailboat owners saying they couldn't afford their boats, so let them die of neglect, have we?

Yes, owning a sailboat cost money, but it's not nearly as dire a situation as your original article made it sound. I think that's what most of the reaction has been about.

Cheers,

Tim
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  #175  
Old 01-08-2009
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"Captain Crunch" You really do way more harm then...

keep reading your nonsense "Captain Garfield" , the good Captain is sure determined to steer any light hearted soul away from sailing .. in any way he can ..
All his numbers are incorrect, all his expense factors are unrealistic , just out to scare people ..why?
If you missed out of validations in a last 70 years ... this is not the way to get some

If you have no REAL intention to help but parade your "bottomless wisdom" , and make people stop on they track in your account ..then you do harm.
You not educate just demolish , your data is bogus , and your logic is make a accountant cry ..but sure don't help any one who love or willing to sail and spend that all might money for a better quality life ( I know that is way over your head)
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  #176  
Old 01-08-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seawitch1906 View Post
keep reading your nonsense "Captain Garfield" , the good Captain is sure determined to steer any light hearted soul away from sailing .. in any way he can ..
All his numbers are incorrect, all his expense factors are unrealistic , just out to scare people ..why?
If you missed out of validations in a last 70 years ... this is not the way to get some

If you have no REAL intention to help but parade your "bottomless wisdom" , and make people stop on they track in your account ..then you do harm.
You not educate just demolish , your data is bogus , and your logic is make a accountant cry ..but sure don't help any one who love or willing to sail and spend that all might money for a better quality life ( I know that is way over your head)
I do not believe any of his posts are for anything but to try and help other. I do not find any hidden agendas. And better a sailor that stays a dreamer than one who gets in over his head and ends up broke and having to sell (or worse, repo) his passion. Certainly you agree with that?

Also, you can attack the ideas, but not the person. Do not make this personal. He has not. All he has tried to do in his posts is help and give his experiences. And though my numbers do not add up to his, nor do yours, I hope he sticks around.

- CD
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  #177  
Old 01-08-2009
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I hope you right but I 'm not sure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruisingdad View Post
I do not believe any of his posts are for anything but to try and help other. I do not find any hidden agendas. And better a sailor that stays a dreamer than one who gets in over his head and ends up broke and having to sell (or worse, repo) his passion. Certainly you agree with that?

Also, you can attack the ideas, but not the person. Do not make this personal. He has not. All he has tried to do in his posts is help and give his experiences. And though my numbers do not add up to his, nor do yours, I hope he sticks around.

- CD
nothing personal, and everything is personal>
We an I, LOVE sailing , cruising , and help newbies to go to sea.. yes it is better to have some idea , but we all learn and there is no fiscal consideration when comes to sailing .. in principal ..
If the captain would be correct (witch he is not) and would paint a pictures encourage people, show feelings and actual say anything correct with the overtone the love of the sport it would be different .. He is non of that ..
what he is .. bored old guy who try to get some attention .. and that yes hurt people who actually read his stuff

sorry Dad .. I do respect your note , now and before hand but I;m disagree with you an this .. I can be wrong (as many times ) but good old Cap' is just self serving and wrong ..
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  #178  
Old 01-08-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seawitch1906 View Post
nothing personal, and everything is personal>
We an I, LOVE sailing , cruising , and help newbies to go to sea.. yes it is better to have some idea , but we all learn and there is no fiscal consideration when comes to sailing .. in principal ..
If the captain would be correct (witch he is not) and would paint a pictures encourage people, show feelings and actual say anything correct with the overtone the love of the sport it would be different .. He is non of that ..
what he is .. bored old guy who try to get some attention .. and that yes hurt people who actually read his stuff

sorry Dad .. I do respect your note , now and before hand but I;m disagree with you an this .. I can be wrong (as many times ) but good old Cap' is just self serving and wrong ..
Have you read any of his other posts? What about the thread on choosing a marina? That certainly is not self serving. His entire web site is devoted to trying to help people and his experiences. Cut the guy some slack. Coming to Sailnet and sharing your experiences and trying to help other people is what this is all about. Like I have said before, my numbers do not agree with his. Still, his premise about making sure you know what you are getting into is right.

I doubt there is a boater alive who did not end up spending more on boating than he had originally planned. Well, at least not a boater whose boat is sea worthy.

- CD
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  #179  
Old 01-08-2009
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That's why joining a sailing club made so much sense to me. I joined Boston Harbor Sailing Club as a gold plus member. I paid around $4,000 in advance for a May to October membership. I can take out any one of their four Cal 33's, a Pearson 34, one of two J29's, plus their Pearson 26's and Albin 28's. I am self employed, so I can take off days mid week to sail, and never had problems reserving a boat. I don't know how difficult it will be to get a boat on weekends for the early summer. But I was a member this past year from August - October and never had problems getting one of the Cal 33's on a weekend.

They provide the fuel, maintenance, moorings and a free launch to take you to your boat. Also you can pick up boats on Boston Harbor, Salem Harbor or a couple of locations on the Cape.

Of course these are club boats, so are a little rough cosmetically. But they are just fine for me. I'll buy my own boat someday, but for now this really works for me.

Last edited by Slayer; 01-08-2009 at 07:12 PM.
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  #180  
Old 01-08-2009
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Facts are Friendly

I owned a 1968 26' Snapdragon for over a decade in partnership with my brother in law. We bought the boat for about $10K CDN from my father in law. We sold it a couple of years ago for $9K. Every year expenses ran about $6k including slip fees (expensive here), insurance, & maintainance.

This was a solid, seaworthy, well maintained boat. I felt great selling it to the next buyer knowing he was getting a fine boat.

Less than $300 / month. Pretty much all the sailing we could ever want.

It was cheaper than a golf habit. It's knowledge that is the barrier to sailing. Not money. It's as expensive as you want it to be.

Now I have ten times the capital tied up in a boat. I pay 3 or 4 times the upkeep.

I still anchor in the same anchorages, eat the same crabs, drink the same wine and watch same sunsets.

Of course now I don't fold up the kitchen table to sleep at night, and I have hot and cold running water and refridgeration. And to me, it's worth it.

There is no need to frighten off the dreamers. Just help them learn how to live their dreams.
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