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  #1  
Old 09-25-2002
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JEFF H input wanted

Jeff,

You made a comment about C&C 30s in a previous thread. You probably are aware that this is a VERY popular boat in Eastern Canada and in Halifax. As I know lots of these boats I am very interested to hear your reasons for calling the 30 among the worst C&C designs ...

As stated on C&C thread there was Redwing built by Hinterhoeller (and maybe C&C as well) and designed by C&C, the Mark I with two slightly different versions (approx 1972 - 1981), the Mark II circa 1988, the Mega and probably some others?

Were you referring to the Mark I or was it some other early C&C 30 I am unfamiliar with?

What is so bad about these boats? I have always thought the Mark I (and esp. the 35 Mk I) to be among the best boats ever built by C&C ...

Looking forward to your reply,

Mike
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Old 09-25-2002
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JEFF H input wanted

Hi Mike,

I am speaking of the C&C 30 mark 1. I am familiar with the earlier C&C designed Corvette and Redwing. The Corvette was a neat boat in its day but the Redwing has never impressed me all that much.

To your question, in their day the early C&C''s (late 1960''s) were quite a revolation and quite highly regarded. (I actually owned a 1965 C&C designed 22 footer that I thought was a wonderful boat). When introduced the first C&C designs were quite cheaply priced in the US market and tended to offer spectacularly good sailing ability and reasonably good construction. They offered nice, simple, functional interior layouts. C&C was quite innovative pionering the use of high density foam coring in decks and a glassed in system of stringers and athwartships framing.

There were a whole cluster of boats tooled in the early 1970''s when C&C began building boats under their own name. The C&C 35 and the C&C 40 of the early to mid 1970''s were real barnstormers. The 35 mk1 with its fine bow (for that era), design weight in the same general range as the J-36,(an 8 years later design), and with a very high ballast to weight ratio for the day, the 35 Mk1 was really impressive on the race course. All of that said, while the C&C 35 Mk 1 was very impressive for its day, I would certainly never say that it was one of the best boats that C&C ever designed but I would say that it was one of C&C''s designs that was most advanced for the era that it was produced.

BUT amoungst the C&C afficionatos the C&C 30 mk1 was seen as a major dud. C&C had tried to reduce the same design brief in length and it did not work out as planned. Racing them in Savannah, they were thought to be very poor light air boats. They were also not very good in a breeze. perhaps because of their smaller size or to hold down costs they did not seem as well engineered as the larger C&C 35. Driven hard they tended to flex, especially in the large bow panels. Very early on, the two that I knew best which were raced pretty hard, showed flexure cracks around the cabin trunk and transom. Very early on there were also issues with rudders on both boats.

Sailing in the short chop in the Atlantic off Savanah they tended to hobbyhorse badly, just about stopping in their tracks, when earlier designs like the original Morgan 30 was able to keep driving to weather. They were quite corky compared to other designs of this era and were often pointed to as the poster child when someone wanted to make a point about the negatives of light weight boats.

It was funny because the C&C 24 of almost the same era, was seen as a super little boat. BUT amoungst folks that really liked C&C''s the 30 mk1 was seen as a real dud. In hindsight, perhaps the 30 mk1 was not all that bad when compared to other boats of that era (Oday 27 for example), but given the strength of the C&C design team''s prior design, to those of us who were big fans of C&C''s (and I knew quite a few of them in those days)the 30 mk1 was seen as a missed opportunity and a real stain on C&C nearly flawless record up to that point in time.

I haven''t sailed a 30 in many years and based the initial way that they held up, I would be interested in what present owner''s think of their boats. (I must say that I was not aware that this is a very popular boat in Eastern Canada and in Halifax although it does not surprise me.)

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Old 09-25-2002
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JEFF H input wanted

Jeff,

Check out cncphotoalbum.com and cncowners@topica.com Both are very interesting groups and are very well supported and received.

Thanks for your comments. I can see that if compared to the 35 at the time there may be some deficiencies (I still say the 35 was a great boat at the time).

C&C being Canadian and having a dealer in Halifax sold many boats here. My father had an 1981 36 and I had heard at the time that although a nice boat the earlier 35 was preferred by many.

My best friend has a 74 C&C 25 which I think is a very nice 25 and I used to have C&C designed Paceship P23 that was a lot of fun as well. There are a 72 and a 81 C&C at our club as well and these seem to be good boats and like most of the old boats have held up well.

Thanks for responding to my question. In these parts C&C have always been very well regarded and used to be the biggest sellers.

Best Regards,

Mike



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Old 09-25-2002
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JEFF H input wanted

The 72 & 81 are C&C 30 Mk I
We also have 2 C&C 27 Mk III, 2 C&C 25 mk I

Regards

Mike
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Old 09-25-2002
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JEFF H input wanted

The 72 & 81 are C&C 30 Mk I
We also have 2 C&C 27 Mk III, 2 C&C 25 mk I

Regards

Mike
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Old 09-26-2002
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JEFF H input wanted

Jeff H.

Were you dreaming when you wrote your message or having a Bacardi nightmare.

Your facts are incorrect in almost all aspects.

C&C Yachts did not come about until 1969. Prior to that Cuthbertson & Cassian had a design group but were not building boats. What was the 22 foot boat designed by C&C? You said the Redwing 35 never impressed you but the C&C 35 was a barnstormer. C&Cs first real success was the 35 - essentially the same boat as the Redwing 35 and was origninally designed for Hinterhoeller Yachts.

You said that "amoungst the C&C afficionatos the C&C 30 mk1 was seen as a major dud". Show me an "afficionato" who claims the C&C 30 MKI as a dud and I''ll take him out for a sail on mine. Sure they might be slow in light air but given 8 knots of wind and you''ll see my transom. How many boats of that size can fly a 150 jenny, no reefs in the main and withstand it? The C&C 30 MKI will. If it was such a dud, why did C&C continue building the boat for 10 years and produce close to 1000 boats (second only the the 27 that went through 4 models). I''ve got a 1973 model and there is abosultely no flexing, especially in the bow. The boat was built to be stiff, construction was superior and today they show it.

The 24 did not come until a few years later when C&C figured it was time for some new models to replace the 25, 27 and 30. The results were poor. So the 30 went back into production. Why would C&C restart the production of a dud?

C&C did not use high density foam coring in the decks and hulls - it was balsa. C&C proved that for most uses, and certainly racing, lightweight, stiff hulls were superior to heavy, single-skin hulls.

When a boat starts to hobbyhorse, it is not the boat''s fault but the crew. If the boat is not rigged correctly it will do some pretty wierd things. More complications set in when the helmsman wants to go one way and the crew tweaks the sails to go another.

What do other C&C MK I owners think - you are a dreamer.

Stu
Owner - C&C Photo Album
http://www.cncphotoalbum.com
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Old 09-26-2002
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Nice tirade and I am glad that you like your boat but lets see if we can keep the record accurate.....I think we both agree that C&C began as a design partnership between Cuthbertson and Cassian in the early 1960''s. Fairly early in the 1960''s C&C began designing boats across a wide size range. Some were built semi-custom basis with C&C contracting the tooling and construction to existing Canadian boat builders. Sold under the name of C&C Yachts as early as 1967 or so the C&C Custom 41 was a good example of this.

Also during the 1960''s C&C was instrumental in what I consider a very sophisticated boat building concept. C&C working in concert with a number of Canadian yards began designing boats in a number of size ranges in which several yards would share the cost of tooling. These different yards would each build their own distinct versions of these basic designs off of the same tooling.

Probably the first of these syndicated designs was the C&C 22''s which were produced as the Grampian Classic 22 (which is the 22 foot C&C that I actually owned. I worked in the Grampian Booth at the 1965 NY Boatshow.), the Bluejacket and as the Viking 22. There was a 4th version whose name escapes me.

C&C designed a number of 30 footers before the C&C 30 mk1. These included the Corvette (which was a nice K/CB boat), the Redwing which was a fin keel 30 footer with a terribly pinched transom, and the Northwind which was a K/Cb boat but which was very similar in hull form to the C&C 30 mk1.)

There was a whole collection of 35 footers including the Frigate and Redjacket (named for the first C&C to win the SORC) but again I am not recalling the names of the other 35''s.

There were also a number of 41 footers including the Redline, Crusader, C&C Custom 41, and Newport 41.

I did not say that the Redwing 35 never impressed me. I said the Redwing never impressed me. The Redwing was an early C&C designed 30 footer. It obviously was a very different boat than the C&C 35 mk 1 (being 5 feet shorter) and also very different from the nearly 6 year later design for the C&C 30 mk1.

You are mistaken when you say that C&C did not use foam coring. They pioneered it in the 1960''s. My Grampian Classic had foam cored decks and a foam cored, hand laid up system of stringers and athwartships frames. In the late 1960''s they moved away from this system to a less expensive balsa coring.

The first C&C 24 that I sailed on was a 1973 model. It was a super boat for its day. Qute a bit faster than my S&S designed Northstar 500 that I owned in those days.

During the 1970''s C&C went in and out of finacial trouble. They recycled many of their designs with subtle changes keeping them in production far longer than probably made sense given the revolutions in yacht design that were taking place during this period.

Lastly, I am glad to show you a C&C afficionado who thinks the C&C 30 is a dud. I''m one. I was a fan of these boats since the 1960''s when I began sailing on them and worked selling them. Of course you are welcome to tie up at my dock next time you are in Annapolis and take me out for a sail to try to prove me wrong! 8^)

Respectfully,
Jeff
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Old 09-26-2002
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JEFF H input wanted

Will all the OTHER C&C afficionado''s who think the C&C30MK1 was a dud please speak now...

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Old 09-26-2002
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JEFF H input wanted

Jeff, I also sail on the Chesapeake, and don''t agree that the 30-1 is a dud. Yes, it is not the best light air boat around, but overall, it performs adequately. Mine is a 1980 and has spent all of its life on the bay. I don''t understand your comment about flexing, I have been in everything up to around 40 knots of wind and 6-7'' seas and haven''t noticed any problems. A few years ago we cruise/raced back to St. Michaels from West River and saw 35 knots before the wind meter died - just my wife driving and me crewing. Beat a number of larger boats with small crews. The previous day we beat them in light air. Proper sail selection is important. The boat is quite stiff (maybe that''s the dud part) but that lends an air of security. It is pretty dry. I have no gelcoat problems in the transom area, just on the deck where a fellow competitor (idiot) tacked into me (T-bone) - messed his bow up big time but just bent a couple of stanchions. I guess I just don''t understand your comments, as I don''t think the boat is a dud at all.....
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Old 09-26-2002
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JEFF H input wanted

I have been sailing for 2 years, this being the first full season with my C&C.

I don''t know who is more thick, me or NOAA but I am just now learning to add 10 knots of wind and 2 feet of sea to their forcast.

I won''t bore you with heavy air stories that only I think are comical, but I will say that my boat has on at least 4 occasions this year stood up well to winds over 40 knots and seas of up to 9 feet. Also, my boat has been sailing WAY longer than I have so I think it is safe to assume it has seen heavy air before.

I have seen on one breezy afternoon under double reef and no head sail, my wind speed indicator reach 50 (yes fifty) knots. And yes I have 3 witnesses. The only flexing was my butt clenching as myself and 3 other sailors decided to get in an early sail before a storm was due to hit. Yes, that is a stupid thing to do but I never claimed to be the brightest bulb on the xmass tree.

4 guys standing around the boatyard bullshiting because NOAA says don''t go out today can be a bad combination.

Did I say I wasn''t going to bore you?
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