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  #11  
Old 02-08-2009
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ducky...add about 50-100k in outfitting to those new boat costs and you'll have a more realistic comparison.
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  #12  
Old 02-08-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rigamarole View Post
I'd be worried about the resale value or depreciation also. The question would be why "new". There are so many near new boats on the market at steep discounts it really can't make sense right now to build. Catana is an example. Look at how many are on the market (80) and the turn rate. You can buy a one and sail for two years straight with the savings from new.
This may not be right in all cases. If you bought a new boat 2 or 3 years ago for a price, you are going to be loathe to sell if for substantially less, and you may not even be able to depending on your financing situation.

In contrast, builders have a fair amount of leeway in terms of what they can do to sell a boat they are holding in inventory.

Today, there are a number of examples where you can get a 2008 new boat for the price of one that's 2 to 4 years old.

And Cam, the new ones I've come across are fully outfitted, as several were boat show boats. This includes electronics, sails, ground tackle, canvas, and all kinds of other goodies.

In this bizarro market, there are opportunities to get a new boat for the price of used. Not every one mind you, but there are some opportunities out there.
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  #13  
Old 02-09-2009
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Do you think builders are sitting on large amounts of inventory though Dan? I am not sure how the business works but I would think right now that without an order you wouldn't just be rattling off boats without orders. Sure you would make your show versions to get to the different venues but would there be piles of boats sitting in stock at Lagoon or Hanse or whoever?

I do realize that there likely would be incremental cost on that new boat for 'goodies' that would definitely add up. That said, if you can resist some of the temptation to go nuts, you would add say 50k. So now lets call that 49 I mentioned 690,000 vs a 5 year old version (smaller mind you) at 512,000. Maybe you can haggle 30k off the used one but I bet you might get 30k off the new one. So 660k vs 482k or about 178k of difference.

For that money, you have new electronics, know your boat wasn't crunched on a reef, have some semblance of a warranty (assuming the builder doesn't go broke), have warranties on the fittings and are likely to get a full instruction set from the manufacturer. Over 10 years the used likely sells for what, 200k and the new by then maybe 300k? So you eat 282k on the used in 10 years and 360k on the new. 28,000 a year for one, 36,000 a year for the other. Realistically, this is a very small to medium amount of your annual budget.

To me, that makes new seem like a more interesting route as 8,000 a year over ten years (assuming a ten year 'trade') isn't a make or break number. Even if I assume I invest the difference its not changing the calculus much.

Not sure I am missing a lot here but to me this is my reasoning on why if I were doing this today I would be looking at new.
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Old 02-09-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowwducky View Post
Do you think builders are sitting on large amounts of inventory though Dan? I am not sure how the business works but I would think right now that without an order you wouldn't just be rattling off boats without orders. Sure you would make your show versions to get to the different venues but would there be piles of boats sitting in stock at Lagoon or Hanse or whoever?

I do realize that there likely would be incremental cost on that new boat for 'goodies' that would definitely add up. That said, if you can resist some of the temptation to go nuts, you would add say 50k. So now lets call that 49 I mentioned 690,000 vs a 5 year old version (smaller mind you) at 512,000. Maybe you can haggle 30k off the used one but I bet you might get 30k off the new one. So 660k vs 482k or about 178k of difference.

For that money, you have new electronics, know your boat wasn't crunched on a reef, have some semblance of a warranty (assuming the builder doesn't go broke), have warranties on the fittings and are likely to get a full instruction set from the manufacturer. Over 10 years the used likely sells for what, 200k and the new by then maybe 300k? So you eat 282k on the used in 10 years and 360k on the new. 28,000 a year for one, 36,000 a year for the other. Realistically, this is a very small to medium amount of your annual budget.

To me, that makes new seem like a more interesting route as 8,000 a year over ten years (assuming a ten year 'trade') isn't a make or break number. Even if I assume I invest the difference its not changing the calculus much.

Not sure I am missing a lot here but to me this is my reasoning on why if I were doing this today I would be looking at new.
That seems like an interesting/logical way to look at it.
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To clariy - when I say 'realistically, this is a very small to medium amount of your annual budget' I was specifically meaning the difference between the two numbers ie 8,000. If you have the budget to eat around 28k or 36k the difference is likely not killing you. Of course, this math could be off as I pulled the end values of the boats pretty much out of thin air. But it has to be admitted it would be easier to sell the 10 year old cat than the by then 15 year old cat.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowwducky View Post
Hi all,

I am curious what people think about the risk of this these days. We all know markets globally are terrible. Boat builders are on the ropes. Now maybe this bodes well for getting some good prices. On the flip side though, I see the risk that you get xyz co started on your boat and 3 months into it the company is out of business.
Theres not a boat builder today, yesterday or tomorrow that isn't, wasn't or gonna be 3 months away from being out of business! Thats the way the boat building industry rolls good times or bad.
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True - the asking price is high on boats. I'm looking for a Bahia right now. Fountaine Pajot still has a brand new, never floated 2006 in La Rochelle for less then some of the 2004 boats listed. The difference to me is the sell price discount. In good years, boats typically sold for 20% less then asking price. While it's a pure guess, I'm planning on paying 40 to 50% less then asking. With a new boat, there isn't a discount or maybe 10%. Time will tell for me but luckly I have time and some sellers may not.
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  #18  
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Unfortunately for me, the earliest I see actually seriously thinking of being in the market isn't until closer to early second quarter 2010.
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Old 02-09-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowwducky View Post
To clariy - when I say 'realistically, this is a very small to medium amount of your annual budget' I was specifically meaning the difference between the two numbers ie 8,000. If you have the budget to eat around 28k or 36k the difference is likely not killing you. Of course, this math could be off as I pulled the end values of the boats pretty much out of thin air. But it has to be admitted it would be easier to sell the 10 year old cat than the by then 15 year old cat.
You could go the other route and try to source a throughly depreciated boat (say, 10 years old) that surveys impeccably due to low and conservative use.

In other words, assuming everything but the engines (maybe!) on a 1998-9 otherwise beautiful boat is in need of replacement, and argue the price down from there with the assumption that all the electronics, some of the wiring and some of the plumbing will be replaced and that the engines may require mid-life service.

We pay a great deal for style and the perception of style, but in some cases, the best or most logical design of a type has already been produced, particularly in a relatively conservative area of design as small yachts. There are many examples of 25 year old designs that have been merely tweaked or updated in terms of trim or electrics and still find an audience.

My point is that the middle distance of the used market holds more bargains than the "newly used" primarily on the basis of perception and the desire of the dealer to recoup the initial cost as much as possible, whereas a 10 year old boat owner knows that his boat (even if it has been only daysailed 20 times and maintained and serviced religiously by marina staff in that period) will labour under the impression of "old, out of fashion" and will be priced accordingly.

The next step, of course, is "classic", at which point the boat will hold or increase its value somewhat based on reputation and whether or not someone does a circ and writes a book praises some otherwise unremarkable 1988 cruiser...
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  #20  
Old 02-09-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yellowwducky View Post
Hi all,

I am curious what people think about the risk of this these days. We all know markets globally are terrible. Boat builders are on the ropes. Now maybe this bodes well for getting some good prices. On the flip side though, I see the risk that you get xyz co started on your boat and 3 months into it the company is out of business. What do you do then?

For instance, Poncin Yachts is currently working under creditor protection (extended to May 31 2009). So if you were thinking of getting one their new Catana's which are fairly popular cats, would you be happy placing an order for one? Now they mentioned in a press release that they got a few boats sold at the Paris boat show and thats great - but what are those buyers doing to protect themselves that a boat can even get completed?

I am not picking on Poncin/Catana here, it is just one that I know is operating under creditor protection as it is a public company.

So, you find your dream boat, its new, shiny and has everything you think you would like. Do you risk it in this world with a builder? How do you protect yourself? How do you know whats going on when it isn't even a public company (like Poncin). For instance, I quite like the look of the new Outremer 49. Well how the heck do you know what is going on financially there to ensure you would get your boat completed? What kind of contracts do people need to get put in place to protect themselves?
I am the wrong person to ask as I am not a big believer in buying a new sailboat in even the best of times. My general feeling is that with a bit of patience, one can do so much better used.
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