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  #1  
Old 02-28-2009
zAr zAr is offline
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Question re: mast partner & seal

So I was looking at a nice CS36T in good condition - except I noticed signs of water damage around the mast partner hole. The ceiling plywood was warping, black spots on the wood, etc. I also noticed about 5 or 6 stress cracks in the glass around the same area topsides which made me think the mast might be stressing the deck.

So I asked the owner about this and he confirmed there was damage done during a mast stepping and also the seal is worn.

Not knowing how much work is involved in repairing this, and Google not being helpful, I thought I would ask here. Is this a buy/no buy sort of problem? How much will it cost to fix it? Is it an easy do-it-yourself sort of fix?

I don't want a boat that I have to repair before I can get her onto the water. I should note that this would be my first boat.
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Old 02-28-2009
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The warping and staining is a clear sign of prolonged water intrusion - not good but not necessarily fatal, and with a good seal the damaged material should be replaceable/repairable.

The cracking, if due to a "mast stepping incident" should be investigated further, first by getting more detail. It's also possible that the deck stay was not taking the halyard loads properly, and that the stress on the deck has come from there. The deck stay is there to counter the tendency of tensioned (led aft) halyards to lift the deck.

There are a number of ways to get a good seal at the partners, various boots are available, cloth(sunbrella) boots can work, and pourable compounds like "spartite" also are used to seal the gap and locate the mast in the hole.

With luck you're just looking at cleaning up or replacing some damaged plywood/veneer.
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Old 02-28-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zAr View Post
So I was looking at a nice CS36T in good condition - except I noticed signs of water damage around the mast partner hole. The ceiling plywood was warping, black spots on the wood, etc. I also noticed about 5 or 6 stress cracks in the glass around the same area topsides which made me think the mast might be stressing the deck.

So I asked the owner about this and he confirmed there was damage done during a mast stepping and also the seal is worn.

Not knowing how much work is involved in repairing this, and Google not being helpful, I thought I would ask here. Is this a buy/no buy sort of problem? How much will it cost to fix it? Is it an easy do-it-yourself sort of fix?

I don't want a boat that I have to repair before I can get her onto the water. I should note that this would be my first boat.
First, I want to congratulate you on your perspicacious choice in fine yachts. You want to sign up with the CSOA discussion group CS Owners Associations E-mail List Server for CS help.

\What you describe I would think common with 36Ts, certainly exists on mine. The mast sits on the keel and cannot stress the deck. The halyards all turn on the mast collar and they could stress the deck, the reason for the heavy rigging connecting the underside of the mast collar to the hull buttom. I would think it common to see minor stress cracks around corners for the frame form that surrounds the mast collar. A surveyor needs to look for any delamination in this area of the deck - whether there are stress cracks or not - no delamination, no problem. This area will only be damaged by water and winter.

It is very difficult to fit a watertight mast boot on a 36T as there is only an inch or so of open mast between the top of the collar and the bottom of the halyard exit boxes, thus leaking boots are common, leading to staining/delam of the fragile thin ply that serves as the underlayment of the celiing panels. Any damage is cosmetic. I cleaned my ceiling area with with some teak cleaner and reset with gorilla glue, added a teak trim collar and it looked fine. The proper prevention is to install a Spartite mast collar and the struggle will be over.

So what you have said about this boat would not concern me at all.

But if you are going to become a yacht owner, especially a well-engineed and sophisticated vessel like a 36T which are usually well equipped with systems, gear and extras, you need to get real about what it means to own a yacht. Boats in general, and yachts like this in particular, require regular ongoing maintenance and upgrades, you can pay hand-over-fist large amounts to a yard to work for you, or spend less money and lots of your own time, to keep your jewel in proper shape. Unless you are paying a premium price to an anal money-is-no-object seller, the typical boat of this size, including a CS should have four or five outstanding problems deserving of attention and money, that make the problem you ask about trivial - its the other ones you need to discover. Assuming you pay cash and keep the boat on a mooring, plan $5000 a year and and an additional $5000 every second or third year, and don't expect to get any of it back when you part with the boat.

Boats are holes in the water into which you throw money, lots of it and on a regular basis, and if you are uncomfortable with that concept you are not ready to join the sailing fool congregation.
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Last edited by sailingfool; 02-28-2009 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 02-28-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sailingfool View Post
First, I want to congratulate you on your perspicacious choice in fine yachts. You want to sign up with the CSOA discussion group CS Owners Associations E-mail List Server for CS help.

\What you describe I would think common with 36Ts, certainly exists on mine. The mast sits on the keel and cannot stress the deck. The halyards all turn on the mast collar and they could stress the deck, the reason for the heavy rigging connecting the underside of the mast collar to the hull buttom. I would think it common to see minor stress cracks around corners for the frame form that surrounds the mast collar. A surveyor needs to look for any delamination in this area of the deck - whether there are stress cracks or not - no delamination, no problem. This area will only be damaged by water and winter.

It is very difficult to fit a watertight mast boot on a 36T as there is only an inch or so of open mast between the top of the collar and the bottom of the halyard exit boxes, thus leaking boots are common, leading to staining/delam of the fragile thin ply that serves as the underlayment of the celiing panels. Any damage is cosmetic. I cleaned my ceiling area with with some teak cleaner and reset with gorilla glue, added a teak trim collar and it looked fine. The proper prevention is to install a Spartite mast collar and the struggle will be over.

So what you have said about this boat would not concern me at all.

But if you are going to become a yacht owner, especially a well-engineed and sophisticated vessel like a 36T which are usually well equipped with systems, gear and extras, you need to get real about what it means to own a yacht. Boats in general, and yachts like this in particular, require regular ongoing maintenance and upgrades, you can pay hand-over-fist large amounts to a yard to work for you, or spend less money and lots of your own time, to keep your jewel in proper shape. Unless you are paying a premium price to an anal money-is-no-object seller, the typical boat of this size, including a CS should have four or five outstanding problems deserving of attention and money, that make the problem you ask about trivial - its the other ones you need to discover. Assuming you pay cash and keep the boat on a mooring, plan $5000 a year and and an additional $5000 every second or third year, and don't expect to get any of it back when you part with the boat.

Boats are holes in the water into which you throw money, lots of it and on a regular basis, and if you are uncomfortable with that concept you are not ready to join the sailing fool congregation.
No fool he. Excellent advice !
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Old 02-28-2009
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Thank you for your replies everyone!

Faster and Sailingfool, you've given me valuable information. I'm going to continue to look at CS36T's but I'm thinking this one is a pass.

Even if the mast brace leaking is common to all CS36's I have a bad feeling about this one - the engine was showing paint bubbling in places, I don't think it's been properly maintained, owner says he changes the oil and filters once in a while and doesn't know how many engine hours are on it - so I expect a full engine overhaul is needed. He also doesn't know how old the sails are, just that they're in fair condition, so I'd expect to have to replace them all. Doesn't know how long his anchor chain is?! Doesn't seem like the sort who keeps logs...or he's hiding something.

So while it's an extremely good deal, this one is probably a rescue.

Sailingfool, thanks for the warning, but I expect to pay more than $5k/year caring for any boat of mine. It's just that I want a boat I can purchase and then immediately liveaboard, so I'm looking for one in very good condition and which won't need any structural or major repairs.

zAr
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Old 03-01-2009
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[quote=zAr;456113]T.... the engine was showing paint bubbling in places, I don't think it's been properly maintained, owner says he changes the oil and filters once in a while and doesn't know how many engine hours are on it - so I expect a full engine overhaul is needed. He also doesn't know how old the sails are, just that they're in fair condition, so I'd expect to have to replace them all. Doesn't know how long his anchor chain is?! Doesn't seem like the sort who keeps logs...or he's hiding something.
.../quote]FWIW, a simple compression test of the W33 will tell you what you need about the engine, other items to look at carefully are the mounts, fuel tank rust (very hard to see!!!), hot water tank rust.

I would agree to be dubious of any boat owned by someone who can't provide precise answers about maintenance history and equipment upgrades. A boat owned by a clueless owner will be rife with unpleasant surprises.
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Old 03-02-2009
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I would recommend you read my Boat Inspection Trip Tips thread and go look at the boat with the suggestions you'll find there. It will give you a pretty solid basis for whether it would make sense to go forward with looking at this boat or passing on it.
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