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Just got home from the boat show - now I''m REALLY confused. We loved the Island Packet 420 (except for the transom), but then got a lot of negative input on Monday from guys at Jeanneau, Wauquiez, Tartan and Sabre - even boat owners on some of those boats overheard the conversation and agreed. The IP is apparently enjoyable to live on in the marina, but hard to sail? These people were adamant that if you enjoyed sailing, an IP wasn''t the boat. Can someone help?
Thank you!
I have sailed an IP 38 and have many friends who are happy with their IP boats. I don''t think it''s quite as black and white as your post implies. If you''re into performance sailing, I wouldn''t recommend an IP. However, offshore on a long reach in a good breeze, you would be in heaven. Tacking up a narrow river, you may not be happy.
There are a lot of other factors to consider though. How much time will you actually spend performance sailing? You give up a lot of things to get that performance. And how important is that performance to you? You may be willing to make the trade-off.
If performance and quality are high on your list, I would consider the new Sabre 425. I have the 452 by the same designer, Jim Taylor. It''s an awsome performer and beautiful besides.
I went to last year''s Annapolis show to buy a J46 and fell in love with the Sabre 452.
At the risk of pissing off the IP owners who frequent these boards (if there are any), ''tis true that IP''s are not noted for their sailing ability. These are heavy, full keeled boats that require a breeze to get moving. The newer "0" models (meaning 350, 380, 420, etc., however, are supposed to have thinner keels and to sail better than the older models, at least according to what an IP salesman told me last year at the show.
I know a fellow with an IP-32 who admitted to me once that he has never had his boat over 6 knots in speed under sail no matter what the wind conditions. I''d call that not too good.
This past summer I caught and passed a big IP (no size on its mainsail, but had to be at least 38 ft.) on a broad reach/run going from Solomons Island to Oxford, MD. Apparent windspeeds were 8-12 knots with gusts to 15 occasionally. My boat is a Pearson 27 and is a downwind rocket, but still no way I should''ve caught a boat that much larger. They gawked at me as I blew by them.
IP owners will tell you about the safety of being on the IP, the comfort of all that displacement resulting in arriving in port more rested, etc. But if you are out there 33 percent longer (pick a number) than better performing boats, I guess you need to be more rested.
There are also all kinds of stories, possibly apocryphal, of IP owners having to fire up the engine to tack, but I have never been able to verify that with an owner.
If sailing offshore (beyond the sight of land) is your thing, then a full keel boat (that is more likely heavier than its finned keel counter-part) has a more sea-kindly motion and is probably safer. It will take longer to get where you''re going, but you are more likely to arrive, and when you do you''ll be less stressed out than if you had sailed there in a lighter, but faster boat.
If the heavier boat does 6 knots on average, and the faster boat does 8 knots on average - a 1000 mile journey will take about 7 days in the heavier boat and just over 5 days in the lighter/faster boat. Based on this example, is getting there almost two days sooner worth the harsher ride? Only you can answer that for yourself.
As I was once told, when sailing it''s ok to make plans, but don''t make schedules. ;^)
Thank you for your response - on Monday, we did look hard at the Sabre 426, and fell in love with it. Unfortunately, it''s about 50% more expensive than the IP420. Can you help me understand your comment about giving up lots of things to get performance? The Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 43 DS seemed to be close to the IP420, but short on finishing touches inside - what''s your opinion of Jeanneau?
Performance boats are more likely to have flatter bottoms. More rounded bilge cruising oriented boats will have deeper bilges which can accept tankage and equipment and allow much more storage. Long keels are good for offshore cruising but not for performance. The comment above about getting there a couple of hours earlier but doing it less comfortably applies.
I would put Jenneau in the same class as Hunter. A lot for the money but not nearly a Sabre. Did you look at the J42?
We''d heard too many bad things about Hunter to look - if Jeanneau is in same class, ugh. I think we might have gone aboard the J42, but found it without enough of the comforts of home inside for my other half.
Ron
Someone told me that Hunter was building Sabres back 5-7 years ago when the banks closed Sabre''s doors for a while. If this is true then the build quality of the Sabres should be no different that the Hunters, right?
I''ve heard more than once that Jenneau is a cut above the Beneteau. Even though owned by the same conglomerate they are independent. They are *way* above Hunters in quality, I would not put them in the same class.
Practical Sailor did a reveiw of the Jenneau Sun Odyssey 43 Nov. 1, 2001 and they were fairly impressed (you can a copy of it from them by contacting them at www.practical-sailor.com -- though its for the traditional 43 not the Deck Salon, but I assume the hull and many things are similar) It says they use things like kevlar in the hull and the bottom of the hull is 2 inches thick. There were quite a few comments on the build quality being pretty good and performance being pretty good also.
Yachting world May 2002 also did a reveiw on all the Jenneau 43''s, you can read it here http://www.jeanneauamerica.com/43s_ontest/43s_ontest_intro.htm . It sounded pretty good.
I got a chance to see the Jenneau 43 DS recently at a show and I was not intending to really like a Jenneau or a Deck Salon. But I came away fairly impressed. I really liked the boat and the way it was set up. All boats are a compromise, but for me I think I would really like owning this boat. From what I read the boat sails well and has a pretty good turn of speed. I also liked the deck Salon area, its set up nice and you have to love the full cabin in the rear. But the boat is not too high and have a lot of freeboard (well not as much as you''d expect) and looks pretty nice still.
The Island Packets are really solid well made boats, but I''m not sure I would want to own one for coastal cruising of any type (and that includes the Caribbean ) for all the reasons stated before. Maybe if I was sailing around the world in poorly charted waters then I would prefer an Island Packet or some other full keel boat. When you talk to some really long distance cruisers, one or two days extra sailing is not that big of a deal when compared to the security and comfort of a heavy full keel boat. And more importantly a well designed full keel (or at least modified full keel) gives an added benefit of being able to beach the boat at high tide and do underwater repairs when the tide goes out. Not to mention the added "toughness" of a full keel to run aground and survive with less damage or problems than a fin keel boat. Nigel Calder (Well known writer who writes Books on Cruising and Diesel Engines and Mechanical systems)
I own a Cal but am enamored with Sabres. Particularly the 34, which would suit my needs well. Your guy is wrong. Hunter never built, nor was associated with Sabre. That said,I sailed on a Hunter CC 46, and found it to be very nicely finished. This was in the Caribeean, I was chartering and met a couple. Cool boat. Imagine that some Hunter models are built better than others. All I hear are negatives about Hunter though. And personally, I hate the looks of most of them.
I sailed on a IP 380 in Maine this past summer and I loved it. The boat does need at least 10 knots of wind and is made for 15-20 knots where you can set the sails and the autopilot and feel like you are in your own home except you are on the water. It does need wind. We did get it up to around 7 knots on a beam reach.
Though I loved it I am, myself, purchasing a Dehler 34 because I will be doing more daysailing and maybe some racing along with weekend trips. The boat will be quicker in lighter winds.
I would base your decision on your experience, full keels are very forgiving boats, and use, IP''s I don''t believe will make good daysailing boats.
Frankly if your looking to cruise the Carribean and are not in a hurry I think you, and especially your wife if you have one, would be very happy and secure in any IP.
Wow - I didn''t realize there was so much anti-IP sentiment out there! If we''re going to use a boat primarily for one to two week sails initially, along the Atlantic coast (both sides of Florida) and over to the Bahamas - with our eyes eventually to BVI and beyond, it would seem that the IP would be a good compromise (which seems to be the norm given limitations on $$$$$)? We''re not ''old salts'' and in our 50s. Right now, IP, Sabre, and J42L look good. We did''t like the cabin finish on the Jeanneau - too much sloppy caulking for one, and the ''wood'' looked cheap as compared to other boats.
The anti IP sentiment is there mainly due to performance. They are very well built if not well engineered boats. I have sailed an older IP 31 and needed to backwind the jib in order to tack the boat. They are definitely a step above the Jeanneaus but at a minimum 50% price premium.The Sabre is a conservative boat and would be much faster and as seakindly if not as roomy.
Agree with Sailmc that it''s not so much anti-IP sentiment as some direct discussion of how they perform compared to other boats. The IP may be perfect for your coastal cruising and Caribbean plans. Other responders to this thread make the point pretty well that it''s all in what you''re comfortable with and want in a boat. IPs are solid, dependable boats, and you pay for that of course.
I also think it interesting that you included the J-42 in your list of candidates. I spent some time on that boat in Annapolis and had a nice chat with Rod Johnstone,the designer. Even his cruising boats make few concessions to the usual amenities one expects of a cruiser. The J''s are SAILboats first and foremost and don''t pretend to be condo queens. No wide ass sterns on them! Interesting to compare the J-42 to an IP if nothing else, even though it may make your head hurt from the differences.
I''m coming in a bit late on this conversation, but my observations about Island Packets have been that their owners don''t really care how fast they go; they''re just having fun. It drives me crazy when another sailboat passes me (that old definition of a sailboat race is two or more boats that can see each other!) but the IP sailors either don''t care or don''t know how to make them go faster. I''ve got a friend with an older IP35 I sail with some times and he tends to throw the sails up and, if he''s moving, he''s happy. Other boats go whizzing by and he just waves, happy as can be. I run around and tweak the sails (and I''ve since helped him tune the rig) and we can sail by most of the other production boats in the area. I''m actually very impressed with their solid construction, their shoal draft (especially here in Florida)and their sailing abilities, IF SAILED PROPERLY.
I met Rob and Dee Dubin a few years ago at a boat show; they used to produce the video magazine called Sailing Quarterly. They had just bought an IP 40, and said it was the best boat of any that they had seatrialed over the 4-5 years filming reviews. Their website is quite informative, it''s worth a browse (www.ventanasvoyage.com). FWIW, here''s what they say about "boat speed."
"Boat Speed
First the facts- Bob Johnson has designed a fast boat. The first generation of IP''s had a bad reputation mostly because they looked tubby. But even then IP 38''s were winning the Caribbean 1500. The subsequent generations of IP''s have just gotten faster and now they win even more rallys. The combination of a fast boat and a comfortable ride continue to allow IP''s to outsail many other boats of equal or larger size. During over 4 years of cruising we have spent countless days sailing island to island with other cruisers. Nearly EVERY time we are faster than any boat under 50''. Many times we beat other respected cruising boats into port by an hour on an 8 hour sail. Even more times we hear complaints of rough passages and see our friends arrive beat up while we only noticed a bit of motion. This seems especially true going downwind where we find our IP 40 rolls far less than many other boats. We often sail dead downwind on a flat steady boat while others jibe downwind at no better speed just to ease the motion.
"With the right sails up we find we can go 1/2 the windspeed in almost any conditions upwind or down. If its blowing 6 knots we can do 3 and if its blowing 15 we can do 7-8 knots. On a reach we usually do better and with the gennikker better still."
I suspect the boats really do sail a lot better than their competitors are willing to admit.
canegardenbay has got it right !!!!!
A cutter rig is quite difficult to sail at ''maximum'' due to the staysail and the required precision needed to get it ''pulling'', especially on a high close reach or beat. Since most boats constructed today are sloops there really isnt much hard data on how to get a cutter ''humming''.
If you take a look at the PHRF handicap ratings an Island Packet (IP38@168, IP40@156) isnt quite the ''slouch'' that many ''instant experts'' claim.
Many claim poor relatiave performance in light winds and I really dont find this to be the case on IPs or other moderate displacement cutters... especially with faired hulls, feathering props, rigid vangs to lift the boom, etc. and a good knowledge of how to properly trim the staysail.
Your statement about a lot of IP owners just dont seem to care how fast they go ..... a profound statement. So for long voyages, perhaps its the difference between "type A" or "type B" personalities; or, maybe its like sex ... longer/slower may be better than lots of ''quickies'',
;-)
I guess it is a matter of perspective. I''d say a PHRF of 156 for any 40'' boat is mighty slow even for the average modern family production cruiser. Most 32'' to 34'' boats are faster.
It all comes down to a matter of personal taste and outlook on sailing. Someone who wants to cruise far and wide should be more concerned with comfort and safety than with the boat''s speed rating. Someone who plans to race should probably not be too concerned about the boat''s sea-kindly ride.
The IP''s appear to be made for use over vast distances. Based on what I''ve seen and read, they seem to be well made for that purpose. I seriously doubt that when everyone aboard arrives at a distant location a week or so later that any will say, "I wish we could have had a rougher crossing to possibly save some time." :^(
Lastly If ''speed'' is your thing, then perhaps you should consider a power boat. Now that''s a group of "Type A''s" if I ever saw one. It seems to me that sailors are mostly "Type B''s" with some having "Type A" tendencies. ;^)
Choices, choices. That''s what boats drive you to. While I agree that speed isn''t everything, it doesn''t hurt either. Here are some comparison PHRF numbers: Caliber 40 -- 120. Morris 40 -- 129. Or for those speed demons out there: Sabre 402 -- 75. J-42 -- 69. I doubt the ride on any of these would be too shabby.
Any of the +40 foot boats that have been mentioned in this thread will give one a pretty comfortable ride, whether it be a IP40 or a J42, you''re still going to move 15 feet vertically in 15 foot waves! Speed should be an important but not a sole deciding factor in choosing which vessel best fits your needs. The speed difference of a minute-a-mile over long passages could be the difference in a squall between taking a lot of sailcloth down offshore or removing the cockpit awning in the harbor.
There is no doubt that the IPs are robustly designed and built. In the trade winds you could probably not find a better suited boat however the way 95% of us use or boats, swift is better than slow. My money is on the 402!
You said, "I doubt the ride on any of these (faster boats) would be too shabby."
Perhaps when the seas are fair, but what kind of ride do they have when the seas are not so nice? Don''t forget, YOU alone do not get to decide if the ride was pleasant. Your crew (and especially the Admiral) has something to say about it as well. I don''t know about you, but my Admiral does not like to being tossed about like a rag-doll, especially for hours on end. :^( For her, comfort is much more important than speed. If your Admiral can take the punishment, then go for the faster (less sea-kindly) boat. My guess is that even if she can take it now, in time you''ll both wish you had a more comfortable boat for those extended cruises.
A lot of lip service is paid to "comfort". How do you rank comfort? What is the standard unit of measure? Maybe we should all stay at home with our half moons under the covers! Sailing is not a sport or pastime for softies, sometimes it’s tough and other times it’s easy and relaxing. What a bunch of comfort weenies!
BTW Commander and Chief of a vessel out ranks the Admiral.
Comfort is like pornography. My Admiral knows it when she feels it and sees it. I suspect, your Admiral knows it too - even if you don''t. ;^)
The Captain may be in charge while underway, but the Admiral has a very large (if not the final) say in what vessel her pennant flies and how much is spent on that vessel. At least that''s the way it is in our democratic household. However, this method may not apply with dictators or among those who graduated from the "Captain Bligh school of diplomacy". ;^)
If the seas are so rough that captain and crew on (pick one) a Caliber 40, Sabre 402, or J-42 are being thrown around like rag dolls, I doubt that the folks on an IP 40 are sitting there drinking martinis and eating canapes. We''re talking about degrees here, and, yes, about subjectivity and choices. I''d vote for a slightly (and I do think it the improvement would be at the margins for the boats we''re talking about) rougher ride if I knew I''d be in port a day earlier. I could do a lot of sleeping in port for a whole day waiting for the slower boat to arrive, not to mention outrunning that low pressure system coming up the coast that''s gonna clobber the slower boat. I think the Admiral would agree with me, too (after she cussed me out for sailing off into those conditions to begin with.)
Clearly, it is a matter of degree. However, whenever one decides to go offshore, keep in mind that "accurate weather forcasting" is an illusion, especially if the trip will take a week or more. Given that one cannot control the weather, the best a good sailor and crew can do is ''prepare for the worst and hope for the best''.
A heavier (yet slower) boat is inherently more stable in rough seas, and usually has more room for the gear and provisions needed for extended cruising. Basically, my Admiral and crew would rather get to where we''re going a day later if it meant getting there at all. Doing it in relative comfort is just icing on the cake. Besides, we''re sailing - what''s the rush? If you need to get wherever at a certain time - you should take a plane!
~ Happy sails to you ~_/) ~
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