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Diesel versus propane

7K views 35 replies 19 participants last post by  Capt Len 
#1 ·
Here's my situation. I'm looking at several boats that have propane stoves and bulkhead mounted propane furnaces. I haven't come across any yet with diesels, which baffles me.

The boat I buy will become an immediate liveaboard.

This poses a problem for me. Propane seems wasteful and inefficient, not as much BTU bang for the buck, not to mention propane is more dangerous. It seems like a diesel stove is much more efficient, more BTU's for less dollar, and the stove can double as a furnace.

So, my thinking is I have several choices:

1) Buy one of these boats with propane furnace, keeping the propane stove, but scrapping the propane furnace and replacing it with bulkhead mounted diesel furnace. This way, I wouldn't need to make any more holes in the deck for an extra exhaust.

2) Scrap the propane stove and furnace, replace it with a single diesel stove/cabin heater, but then have the problem of:
a) needing to make a new exhaust hole above the stove, or...
b) pipe the stove exhaust across the cabin to the old propane exhaust vent (not an option, really)

3) Buy a boat with just the propane stove, no cabin heater, and replace that with a diesel furnace/stove, making only one new hole. This is logical but more costly and I may not have that money initially.

4) Wait and hope a boat comes along with a diesel just the way I want it.

Watcha think? I'm thinking of the Sigmar diesels because they don't seem to have the soot problem according to Hal Roth.

By the way, do diesel furnace/stoves make the boat smell of diesel? Not having encountered one yet, I can't sniff things out.
 
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#2 ·
Why would you scrap a perfectly good propane heater? They're not really dangerous if properly installed. They're also quite efficient. Propane is also a much cleaner fuel than diesel is.

The problem with using a diesel stove/heater combo unit is that IIRC, it is not vented. It will introduce a lot of moisture into the boat, since it doesn't have a chimney/exhaust. It also runs a slightly higher risk of carbon monoxide poisoning.

Also, diesel stoves, IIRC, have to be pre-heated, so you'd need alcohol aboard the boat to pre-heat it with.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Diesel heaters, like the Dickinson (DickinsonMarine.com - Diesel Natural Draft Heaters) or Refleks (Outline for installation - Refleks Olieovne A-S - Ringe) are vented, but SD is right that you need to preheat them. You can, however, do that with tabs or strips, so that you do not have to fiddle with alcohol in a rolly anchorage. But I have to agree that the propane stove is efficient and clean.
Btw. I just love my Refleks heater, it makes a very large difference on a cold and/or wet day + it uses no electricity at all.
 
#4 ·
If you're going to be tied up at a dock where electricity is available, why not buy a decent quartz heater and just plug it in when you need it. It's a clean source of heat, requires no ventilation, and is inexpensive to buy. This will also allow you cut way down on your propane use.

If you're away from the dock, your propane heater should work quite well for you. Your propane stove is little different than the stove I'll be cooking on tonight and is almost maintenance-free. So, why change it out?
 
#9 ·
One way a diesel is supposed to be different from a propane stove is that the diesel can double as a cabin heater.

I should have mentioned I'm trying to be as off-grid as possible. I'm looking into solar panels and wind generators too. I'm not sure how much electric I'd use with a heater in a Canadian winter, but my impression is that electric heaters are the most wasteful or energy inefficient of all.

Of course, living on diesel is not exactly being "off-grid", is it...but at least it means I can go for long passages without needing to plug into shore power, which is what I'm aiming for.
 
#5 ·
We spent years with alcohol stove and no heater for all the usual reasons. We switched to propane stove, and added a vented propane heater and would never go back.

Properly installed and handled the propane is not really a problem, and you're guaranteed no odours, lighting problems, etc. Diesel stoves can also be difficult to "turn down" during the shoulder seasons, getting uncomfortably warm at times.
 
#6 ·
4) Wait and hope a boat comes along with a diesel just the way I want it....
Everybody has their preferences (I'm very happy with our propane stove/oven and bulkhead heater), but regardless I would not make the existence of an installed diesel heater and stove the litmus test for which boat to buy.

Find a boat that best fits your needs and budget, then modify it over time as you see fit. Price, length, displacement, draft, sailing performance, sail and gear inventories, etc would be much higher priorities as I tried to eliminate prospective candidates.
 
#7 ·
Find a boat that best fits your needs and budget, then modify it over time as you see fit. Price, length, displacement, draft, sailing performance, sail and gear inventories, etc would be much higher priorities as I tried to eliminate prospective candidates.
You're absolutely right. I've found the boats that meet my needs in terms of price, length, displacement, draft, sailing performance, etc. I'm now down to several different boats of the same two makes (CS36T or Niagara 35 Mk 1), some with heaters, some without.

For anything else, such as electronics, I would say the same - do my own modifications - but this is a matter of modifications already having been made - with big holes in the deckroof - and the possibility of making new holes or filling the existing holes.
 
#8 ·
I've read that given the heat output of propane versus diesel, for the same price you'll be making more trips to fill up the tank with propane than with diesel. So, in other words, even though diesel is more expensive, a single liter gives you more heat and diesel heaters use less fuel per hour than propane. A quick scan of the diesel/propane heaters on the market and their heat outputs would seem to confirm this.

Plus, as I mentioned, the diesel gives you the option of having one stove which does double duty as a heater and stove. That's one less fuel you need to carry on board.

Then there's the fact that diesel heaters can burn #1, #2 or kerosene. And I think I read somewhere that diesel is more readily available outside of North America than propane.

Has anyone smelled a boat with a diesel stove? I hate the smell of diesel, so that would sort of answer the question right there.
 
#10 ·
So... you can rip out a serviceable propane stove, and for a couple of thousand dollars, have a more efficient diesel stove that may be so hot during the summer that you end up having to go out to a restaurant because using the stove makes the boat too hot to sleep aboard.

How much more efficient is diesel fuel compared to compressed gas? Are the savings big enough to warrant thousands of dollars in up-front installation costs, or will it take eight to ten years to break even on a new diesel stove/heater, compared to just using gas in the unit that's already there?
If you find a diesel stove in a boat that suits you, great, but don't be looking to save money by making large capital outlays when you don't have to.
 
#11 ·
How much more efficient is diesel fuel compared to compressed gas? Are the savings big enough to warrant thousands of dollars in up-front installation costs, or will it take eight to ten years to break even on a new diesel stove/heater, compared to just using gas in the unit that's already there?
Eight to ten years to break even on a $1-2k stove and less than $500 for installation, tops?

I admit I'm a newbie and haven't seen as many marinas/anchorages as some folk here, but it seems to me I'd be making lots of trips inland, lugging two 20 lb tanks back and forth with annoying frequency when most marinas have diesel facilities already on hand or close by. Could propanes be more popular with the weekender/daysailer crowds who simply stop at the gas station and pop a tank or two into their trunks? Or, since fuel efficiency is not why they're doing it, is there some other reason that escapes me? Maybe diesels stink?

Overheating was mentioned, but a quick peek at the Dickenson's (they have propanes and diesels) shows that diesels aren't locked into high heat, they can be turned down to the same low BTU range as propane furnaces. That could be false advertising, though, or perhaps its newer technology.
 
#12 ·
My vote after living on board (mostly in Toronto) and cruising south for the occasional winter over the last 15yrs.
Propane stove - one 20lb. tank lasts about 4 -5 months.
Espar diesel furnace - which can be mounted in a cockpit or transom locker and does not make for space-taking bulkhead mounting.
 
#13 ·
It is hard to control a diesel heater or stove at low heat settings, due to the nature of diesel fuel. They also tend to pollute more and burn more inefficiently at low heat settings than does propane.
 
#14 ·
Alright, thank you everyone for your advice. I guess I'll give the propane a try, it can't hurt.

Boatpoker, I'm going to be living aboard in Toronto too, so your comment about your configuration really helps. I didn't know I could keep the Espar in the lockers. Most excellent!
 
#16 ·
I had a diesel stove which was our heater on our 36 footer and I loved it. In my opinion it's superior to propane. However on my 25 footer I wouldn't even consider it. I'd choose propane. Thing about propane is it's wet. You may experience water on the headliner and stuff like that.
Good luck,
Stephen
Cal 2-25
sv SIRIUS
Seattle
 
#17 ·
Stephen,

You're correct, one byproduct of propane combustion is H2O. Propane stoves and ovens will produce a fair bit of moisture in the cabin if used for long periods.

But most of the improved propane heaters, such as those sold by Dickinson (the Newports, for example), have sealed combustion chambers that exhaust all the moisture out of the cabin through a chimney. The chimneys are double-walled, so they also draw air for combustion from outside of the cabin.

Force 10 used to market a little bulkhead propane heater that lacked the sealed combustion chamber. If your only propane heater experience is with that model (now offered by Sigma, I believe), be prepared for a pleasant surprise!
 
#19 ·
Good way to get CO poisoning too... :rolleyes:
 
#20 ·
Great point John. I had a Dickenson on a 30 ft sailboat I sold right away thinking of avoiding the wetness...now I realize that wouldn't have been an issue. DAHHH!!
I'll use a little red portable heater buddy on my Cal 2-25. I've used them before and they work great! Keep the cabin vented a tad and your good to go.
Stephen
sv Sirius
Seattle
 
#21 ·
I will weigh in with my opinions:

I really like propane. It is readily available about everywhere. Our friends even cruised the Western Carrib and found it at about every stop. At worst, they might get a local to carry them into town.

We could not get our propane to last longer than about 60-90 days when we lived aboard. It was me, wife, and one kiddo at that time. Still, since you will have a spare, you will just switch over and when you get a chance, get the spare refilled.

If anything in this process, see if you can find a locker that takes the standard propane bottles versus the horizontal that seem to be coming increasingly common. Horizontal, especially aluminum, are very expensive (I think a 10ish lb horiz costs me about $230!!!).

I cannot comment on the heater as I luckily have no real experience there. However, I certainly woul dnot pull out a working heater that was propane for a diesel one!! Just my opinion, though.

Brian
 
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#25 ·
Dear God of your choosing.

Please don't tell me the original poster is making a liveaboard boat purchase decision based on a heater/stove.

heavy sigh.
I'm the original poster and, no, I'm not being that silly. :)

I'm looking at a whole range of CS36T's and Niagara 35's, all with various configurations, with the goal of finding the most immediately liveable and sailable.

So, having decided on two models that suit me, having ruled that out of my decision making process, I'm now left weighing the various configurations available among the CS36T's/Niagara35's on the market in my vicinity.

So, one of my issues is should I buy a vanilla boat with no heater and, if so, what heater do I choose? Or should I just get a boat with a heater and, if so, should it be diesel or propane? Or should I buy propane and replace it with diesel? I can't seem to find a boat with a diesel heater so the option of replacing a diesel with propane hasn't presented itself.

But yes, I take for granted that I'll want to outfit the boat the way I want.

I'm just going through that phase, as a first-time boat buyer, where I'm trying to reduce a boatload of variables to a well-considered decision.
 
#23 ·
living onboard in Toronto requires serious heat

I am from Toronto although I am living onboard in NYC now. For what it is worth I owned a Niagara 35 Mk 1 for several years. We have propane cooking and an Espar for heating and has worked out really well. During the winter we burn 25 to 50% kerosene depending on the temperatures. The Espar dealer suggested this would help keep the burner clean. We buy our diesel at a truck stop since it is much cheaper than at the marina. Filling from those no-spill jerry cans has worked really well. Interestingly, the nearest propane station is right next to the truck stop so it would be the same distance for either.

A comment about the Niagara. Most were built with a Paloma propane water heater (I have intention about starting a fight about these!). The Paloma worked well for me for years but it does mean that you will be using propane in any case (and turning off the unit when not in use).

As someone else said, do not buy a boat based on what heating system it has. Buy the best boat for living aboard and cruising and modify it to meet your needs. If a boat has a propane heater try it out in combination with electric heat. I would not rely on an unvented heater though for overwintering as condensation is already a big enough problem without adding to the moisture content by heating.

Diesel heaters (other than stoves as in BC) and bulkhead models either use hot air or hot water to heat the boat. The former have quite large air ducts and you would have to route them carefully to heat the whole boat. On a N35/mk 1 you could place the heater at the aft end of a cockpit locker which would be great for the exhaust piping but it might be quite hard to get a hot air duct into the main cabin (might work on the portside through the galley above the refrigerator. Hot water heaters (hydronic) have much smaller pipes and can provide domestic hotwater too, but are even more pricy.
 
#26 ·
I am from Toronto although I am living onboard in NYC now. For what it is worth I owned a Niagara 35 Mk 1 .
That's exactly the kind of boat I'm looking at, and in exactly the same location too, so I'm particularly interested in your wintering experiences.

Diesel heaters (other than stoves as in BC) and bulkhead models either use hot air or hot water to heat the boat. The former have quite large air ducts and you would have to route them carefully to heat the whole boat.
Ok, I didn't know this. I hadn't considered water heating. Gah, another variable to consider. :)

Question: Do you find that the balsa cored hull on the Niagara helps reduce condensation and keep heat in?
 
#31 ·
By the way, do diesel furnace/stoves make the boat smell of diesel? Not having encountered one yet, I can't sniff things out.
I don't know about the new ones but the old diesel heaters and stoves used to smell a lot and they throw off a lot of soot. Even if you are okay with the constant blackening of your boat and sails, your neighbours might not be.

Good luck :)
 
#32 ·
Diesel stoves and heaters are not all preheated. Look at Wallas, Webasto and Eberspacher. They are electronic with enclosed burners - on a different planet to the Dickensen style. Wallas have the best reputation for reliability and have a cooktop that can have a heater blower accessory added. All these brands have outside exhausts and enclosed burners so if you smell diesel ffuel, you have a leak. If you smell fumes, you have put your exhaust in the wrong place. They are safe to use overnight as long as there are no exhaust leaks. These types are also very efficient and are not dangerous.
 
#34 ·
diesel stove/heater...

This looks like a dead discussion but I'm sure that someone other than me is cold....
I bought my boat with propane installed (she is a 1967 nicole trimaran - cedar strips over a light frame and (now) covered in west marine epoxy and glass... I have had boats with alcohol, wood (pellet) and propane heaters before Ceil... all of them have issues but the common theme is 'wet'. All these fuels dump water into your cabin. No way around it, it's part of what they are and do. When I bought Ceil I decided to try a diesel stove and bought a wallas diesel. I decided to try it because it functions both as a cook-top AND as a forced air heater... the forced air part is important because it means that the hot air is blown into the cabin, not just over the heater. In addition, the diesel is completely isolated from the cabin air - the stove vents all combustion out an insulated through-hull (above the waterline) so you don't EVER get a diesel smell. It works really well and when I did need service they (Scanmarine) were very helpful. The cook-top works great (though I do use a small propane if I am just boiling coffee water as it heats up faster) for most cooking purposes.
 
#35 ·
Diesel stoves work well on any boat that does not heel (much). Because they are not gimballed they do not work well on most monohulls.
 
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