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post #11 of 43 Old 03-24-2009 Thread Starter
1979 C&C 30 Mk I - 2QM15
 
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Originally Posted by Sanduskysailor View Post
The $12,000 cost seems reasonable if the boat is in overall good condition. What condition are the hatches and portlights. Make sure the cockpit sole is thoroughly checked out by your surveyor. What about the sail inventory and roller furling. Replacing standing or running rigging can get expensive.

Bottom line- make a spreadsheet of all that you thing would need to be replaced or repaired. Add the total cost to your purchase price and see if it makes any sense. My guess is that the total exceeds $18,000 you could do better with a different boat.
I'm doing just that right now... I went down for a second inspection with my digital camera today and took about 80 pictures of every nook, cranny, crack, chip, and smudge I could find on the boat. I'm putting together a list of what I found. The standing and running rigging are in good working order. The engine looks to be in fairly good shape, and the hull and deck have no major damage.

Most of what I'm finding seems to be cosmetic issues that I can fix over time like:

- gelcoat cracks around hardware that needs to be rebedded
- screws missing
- mounting holes in the deck for things that were moved or removed over time that were plugged with caulk but never really sanded to blend in with the deck
- teak that could use some re-oiling or satin varnish
- sloppy pvc caulk around windows that need to be removed and rebedded properly

I'm probably a little anal when it comes to attention to detail. So I probably would need to fix things other people would just live with. I can see myself starting at one end of the boat and working to the other end on my free evenings knocking out each imperfection one by one.

I think I'll be putting a lot of sweat equity into this boat if I go ahead with an offer. But I think most of my expense is going to be in cleaning materials, caulk, gelcoat, epoxy, nuts&bolts, teak oil, wax, 3M pads, etc...
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post #12 of 43 Old 03-24-2009
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I have a general rule regarding boats. It seems to have borne itself out over time : For every model of boat in decent condition, there is an average price. You may pay it all upfront or you may buy low pay it as you upgrade, but you will end up paying it.

So a C&C 30 is roughly a 30K boat. The one that you are going to buy for 12K is going to cost a fair bit to bring back. There will be fittings that are worn out, sails that need replacing, a stove of some kind to be fitted, teak and varnish to be purchased, etc., etc., ad nauseum.

I am willing to wager that you'll spend at least 30K on her over a four to five year period. At her age, things will be worn out and unserviceable. If they had been replaced recently the boat would be selling for more money. If they were not particularly expensive, the current owner would have repaired them in order to sell the boat for a better price.

I don't wish to discourage you but you need to be aware that there are an awful lot of things that you can't see that could need work.. Get a good surveyor.

Last edited by Sailormann; 03-24-2009 at 11:09 PM.
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post #13 of 43 Old 03-24-2009 Thread Starter
1979 C&C 30 Mk I - 2QM15
 
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The method to my madness is as follows:

1. Inspect her stem to stern myself for everything I can find on my own

2. Make an offer based on a fair balance between the asking price and the items that need to be fixed.

3. If the offer is accepted, make the actual follow through purchase contingent on the surveyor's report.

I fully understand the pay me now or pay me later concept of buying a used boat. I'm looking to the latter to get myself out on the water with a low entry fee. The boat just needs to be surveyed as structurally solid, sail-able, seaworthy, and the repairs that "are" needed are primarily cosmetic rather than structural or mechanical in nature.
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post #14 of 43 Old 03-24-2009 Thread Starter
1979 C&C 30 Mk I - 2QM15
 
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Can the hull # be derived from the HIN # (e.g. where the boat was in the building series for C&C 30's) ? Or do you have to find it somewhere else?

If so, how do you find it?
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post #15 of 43 Old 03-25-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backcreeksailor View Post
......The boat just needs to be surveyed as structurally solid, sail-able, seaworthy, and the repairs that "are" needed are primarily cosmetic rather than structural or mechanical in nature.
You are off on the right foot in that the C&C 30 Mark I is a very desirable boat, one well worth the care, attention, and investment dollars of a serious boater. Her sailing qualities will make you smile for years to come.

Two suggestions for your plan, include an engine survey (especially a compression test) and don't expect to make some sort of killing on the purchase price, understand you are buying a quality boat, it'll cost some dough...

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post #16 of 43 Old 03-25-2009 Thread Starter
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I think 12k is a pretty good price when compared to the market values. I think the only reason it's selling this low is because the previous owner sailed her but never really did any kind of upkeep. So there are a lot of relatively minor cosmetic issues that make the boat not show so well as compared to many others that are on the spring market. But I'm looking past the minor imperfections at a very solid boat that just needs a little clean up and sweat equity to bring her back.

I'm definitely getting the boat surveyed. But I'm a first time boat buyer. So when you mention an "engine survey". Is the engine usually surveyed separately from the rest of the boat. Or does the typical $10-$15 per foot survey rate include everything (hull, deck, engine, rigging, etc...)?

Question: Typically, do you have the survey done before you make an offer, or after the offer is made and accepted (making the final purchase contingent on the survey results)?

Last edited by backcreeksailor; 03-25-2009 at 09:42 AM.
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post #17 of 43 Old 03-25-2009
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Backcreek, make a fair offer contingent on acceptable survey. That way you can negotiate a better price to fix any non obvious issues. Late last year I bought a 1985 C&C 29-2 with an offer of 19k. After the survey the price was renegotiated to 14K to address some issues. This spring, the issues are being fixed with the 5K difference.
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post #18 of 43 Old 03-25-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by backcreeksailor View Post
.... Is the engine usually surveyed separately from the rest of the boat. Or does the typical $10-$15 per foot survey rate include everything (hull, deck, engine, rigging, etc...)?

Question: Typically, do you have the survey done before you make an offer, or after the offer is made and accepted (making the final purchase contingent on the survey results)?
Most surveyors do not survey the engine, they may include a general observation on condition, or on performance if a sea trial is done. Neither substitutes for the paid opinion of an expert diesel mechanic, especially the compression test (and trust me, I learned this fact the hard and very expensive way...). Depending on the boat surveyor and his expertise and scope, you may also want to hire a rigger to survey the rig.

You have the surveys done after your offer is accepted, the offer should allow a 4 weeks period for surveys, during which you can terminate the sale, with no explanation of why required. If a survey brings up a material, expensive surprise, after terminating the sale, you can make the seller aware of the surprise and offer to negotiate a new sale price that thakes the surprise into consideration.


See http://www.willismarine.com/uploads/...ement_2008.pdf for a standard agreement, mark it up as needed for your circumstances. You can write in for the escrow amount to be released after a sea trial and/or delivery of all inventory if such seems necessary..

It's interesting that this agreement now has sale termination as the no-notice-received default at the end of the survey period, not acceptance, I think this new...

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Last edited by sailingfool; 03-25-2009 at 10:46 AM.
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post #19 of 43 Old 03-30-2009 Thread Starter
1979 C&C 30 Mk I - 2QM15
 
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I've looked her over stem to stern twice and went through all the pre-survey inspection tips listed here at sailnet. So I'm going to take one last look at her today and review the last survey done back in 2003 before I go ahead and make an initial offer.

I talked to a marine surveyor about doing an engine survey on the Yanmar 2QM15 today and he told me that other than a visual inspection and startup test to make sure it starts easily, the tests that can be done on land are pretty minimal. He said it needs to be sea-trialed to really get anything out of a marine survey.

Is it worth paying a marine mechanic to start it up on the hard and look it over? Or is letting the hull surveyor do the visual checks as a part of the inspection he'll do anyway and just cranking it up on the hard from a cold start to make sure it fires right up good enough?
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post #20 of 43 Old 03-30-2009
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...before I go ahead and make an initial offer.
....
Is it worth paying a marine mechanic to start it up on the hard and look it over? Or is letting the hull surveyor do the visual checks as a part of the inspection he'll do anyway and just cranking it up on the hard from a cold start to make sure it fires right up good enough?
Realize going into the offer that you should be ready for it to be your final offer..ie.e if accepted, you will be expected to pay that amount...don't assume the survey will give you license to reduce the agreed price, not to say that it may not.

You should talk with a good Yanmar mechanic about going over the engine to include a compression test. That the surveyor didn't recommend an engine survey, and in particular the compression test, causes me to question his/her level of expertise and to recommend that you find someone else. I'll bet if you look at one of his surveys, he disallows any responsibility for engine condition (and probably rig too..) as seems common for hull surveys.

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Last edited by sailingfool; 03-30-2009 at 01:54 PM.
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