Fsbo

[JimMcGee]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

To mangle eh's most excellent quote from Twain, sometimes the pig just deserves to be annoyed.

Oh let's be honest. Sometimes it's downright fun when the pig is really an a$$.

[eherlihy]

UPDATE:

Almost a year has gone by since I started this thread.

Last I knew, the guy did receive an offer, but the deal fell through. I suspect that a survey had something to do with that. The boat went back on the market, and the guy dropped from his original asking price by over 30% (still way over NADA) and listed it for another month. He recently took it off the market through the broker. I emailed him, curious if it sold. He replied that it was available and encouraged me to look her over. I asked if he would be interested in selling at NADA, understanding that there are issues with this boat. He said "no."

[RhythmDoctor]

And you are surprised about this? What I did not see in your posts was whether you bought a boat in the past year, or are still looking.

In shopping for Catalinas in the 25-34' range this winter, I found that about 70% of them were way overpriced, and sellers extremely inflexible with potential negotiations. Some had been on Yachtworld for over a year (plus FSBO period for some of them). Bottom line - people can be stubborn, especially if they are able to use the boat while it's on the market. Some are just so emotionally tied to getting all their money out of it that they fail to realize that there may be no buyers at their price.

I made fair offers (based on carefully researched price history on Soldboats.com) on 5 of these boats and all were rejected. Thank goodness, since they were all bigger than I really needed for starting out. We went back to a 25' boat for daysails and occasional overnight, and will charter on the rare occasion we want to cruise for several days. We're more satisfied with the 25 footer knowing that we looked at bigger and decided we didn't really want them at this stage.

If we decide we want a bigger boat in the next couple of years, I fully expect to end up looking at many of the same boats we already saw. They will still be on the market - just 2 years older. And I would not be surprised if they are asking less money than we offered already.

By the way, in comparing NADA with price history on soldboats.com, it appears that NADA is about 20% low for production boats. I know some people insist that brokers inflate the selling prices when they report to soldboats, but I am not convinced that this is a significant factor. But it is relatively rare that I hear of a boat selling at NADA book price.

[NCC320]

I've read the posts on this thread with interest and would like to share a few comments. I do so from the standpoint of a FSBO.

Some of the anger at the seller seems to be that he is asking an outrageous price. Keep in mind, the boat belongs to him. He is free to set the price at whatever price he chooses, realistic or not.

If you don't like his price, simply move on. You have nothing invested at this point, and as you have stated, there are other boats out there. Don't get angry at him for not selling the boat to you at the price you think is correct.

If you really wanted that boat for some special reason, you are more likely to get it if you treat him with respect, no matter if he is rude to you. Make him mad, and he won't sell to you no matter what, especially if he is in a position to keep the boat. Someone mentioned that there was a boat that was sold at a price less than they offered. Boats and owners often have emotional attachments, and sometimes, correctly or not, a person won't sell to someone that they believe will not take care of his prized possession.

Just as a potential buyer can raise his bid to get the boat, the seller is equally empowered to lower his price at some point. Be patient, state in touch, and he might come closer to you.

In reading these threads, there is a current thought that it is a buyer's market and buyer's should offer discounted offers of ~70% of the seller's asking price and they get angry if that isn't accepted. As a seller, if I have tried to price my boat at a realistic price (correctly or not), it is an insult to me for a prospective buyer to low ball me.

As to offering NADA prices, in setting my price, I looked extensively at what other similar boats were offered at, and other rating agencies valued the boat. BUC for example offered a range for the same boat from the low NADA valuation to 160% of NADA, depending on the boat condition. I've advertised my boat at a fair price. It's ok to offer a little less, but it's ok for me to hold my price. I personally believe NADA prices are too low.

As to demonstration sails. It takes time to take people out on inspection excursions. Why should I spend a day with a "potential buyer" who may or may not be serious. On past boats, I've had them show up with the whole family for a free day on the water with no intention of buying the boat. My time is valuable too.

Surveyors: The boats that I sold before were not surveyed, but I've read lots of articles about surveyors. Even though your surveyor is being paid by you, he has no right to do things that some of them do. For example, I don't want one hammering all over my boat. And if he expects that wood might be not sound, he has no right to stick a knife in the wood and rip it open. And if he suspects water may be trapped between the decks, he has no right to drill a hole in the boat to confirm his suspician. And if you are buying an old boat, the price is lower than new because there are some problems. If the boat was in absolutely new condition, it would be a new boat and priced accordingly. Since the surveyor is being paid by you, he will find something, that you will use to try to get me to lower my price lower than what we tentatively agreed to. And as for saying, fix this or fix that and I'll buy the boat, there will always be a difference in what I consider fixed and what you consider fixed. My boat is priced as is, where is. I have nothing to hide. You are welcome to go through the boat, bring your expert advisor to help you, and you should adjust your offer to what you think is appropriate for the boat as is, where is. And I will either accept your offer, make a counter offer (it's called negotiating), or reject you offer. At that point, you accept the price on the table, reject it and move on, or make a counter offer.

Buying a boat is stressful. Price negotiations are always stressful. And selling a boat is stressful becuase you know the buyer is going to try to beat you down on price. Stay cool and you'll get further. I might reject your offer today but adjust it downward on another, and call you to see if you are interested.

A personal experience....not a boat in this case. It was a waterfront lot that I bid in at an auction. After the absolute auction was over, the seller promptly rejected all bids. I and other successful bidders were furious. Later, that night, I received a phone call. The seller said that if I would raise my offer ~!2%, I could have the lot. I was pissed and told him where to get off.
So I didn't get the lot, someone else did. And in just a couple of years, the value of that lot had doubled. Had I kept my cool and thought the thing through, I would now have a waterfront lot and waterfront house.

Over my life, I have purchased 5 sailboats, all new. I never had a demonstration sail on any of them. Think about all those high end custom yachts that are built "one off". The owners never get a demonstration sail in advance. And realisticly, how many of the potential buyers would really know a good sailing boat from a bad one?

Just an old guy's thoughts. Hope that they will be helpful in some way.

[eherlihy]

NCC320,

Thank you for that post. I had hoped that someone would present the buyer's side of this.

It may seem that I'm angry, but I'm not. I am frustrated that I wasted two days, and 1 night in a hotel so that I could see this neglected vessel. He assumed that I would make an offer, and then was rude to me when I told him why I did not. A year later, he still owns a boat that he doesn't use, and I am still looking for a boat.

You are absolutely right that this 81 year old does not need to sell the boat to me or anyone else. I don't have to give this guy my hard earned money either. We are not talking about the national debt here. The difference between what I actually offered and what he is asking for the boat is less than $10K. This vessel is less than 35 feet, and 21 years old. However, I agree with RythmDoctor's observation that this, and several other, FSBO are not priced realistically. Perhaps they would sell if they were? I believe that the fact that this boat languishes is proof of that.

Also with a brand new boat, I would assume that everything works as it should, and will do so for some time. You have recourse if it doesn't through either the dealer, or manufacturer. On a 5 year old boat, I suspect that many of these checks would not be necessary. However, with a 20 year old USED boat, what you see is what you get. Buyer's need to be cautious. If you didn't allow me to: check for voids in the laminated hull or deck (by tapping with a phenolic hammer), check for moisture with a meter, look at the chain plates, or for check suspected rotted wood, on a 20 year old boat, I would suspect that you were hiding something.

[NCC320]

I am currently advertising my boat on several on-line listing services. One of my concerns is that someone, who lives some distance away, will read the brief description, call me, and have a different understanding of what we mean by "good or excellent" condition. Towards that end, I have posted a link to a website where I have lots of pictures showing the boat in great detail. In this way, a potential buyer will have already seen the good and bad of the boat. I realize this is the exception, and by doing so, I may actually be hurting myself. So many people (from experience) feel that there is always something hidden, that if I show a defect, the reaction may be: if he's showing this, what else is he not showing. Truly non destructive investigation such as a moisture meter would not be a problem. Hammering on, digging in with a knife, and drilling holes are not nondestructive. When the time comes for a surveyor to look at one of my boats, I will be there, and the minute that he starts these sorts of things, the survey will be terminated. Sorry, but a prospective buyer can't damage my boat and then walk away.

[RhythmDoctor]

I think disclosing all known problems is a good way to go. If people want to be scared away, they'll find a reason. But it also builds trust, and lets people know that you don't want to waste their (and your) time. If they aren't willing to accept these problems, don't bother to come see the boat.

It also frees you from being low-balled by a surveyor. If he "discovers" something that you've already disclosed, you are in a strong position to say that it was already known at the time the offer was made, and thus the contract price already takes that into account. I realize that if a buyer wants to low-ball you with the survey, nothing will stop him. But if he wants the boat he should realize that he can't change the price for a problem that was already disclosed. It would not be inappropriate for you to hold the line on price for survey issues that were pre-disclosed.

My only question about your strategy is refusing to let a surveyor do tappings. Tappings with a phenolic hammer are pretty well established as standard procedures for surveyors who are trained to do it properly. If nobody has tapped your boat before, then it is possible that a surveyor could discover something that you haven't disclosed (because you're unaware of it). So that might discourage potential buyers.

Does anyone up here have actual examples of phenolic tappings damaging a boat?

[eherlihy]

Originally Posted by NCC320

I am currently advertising my boat on several on-line listing services. One of my concerns is that someone, who lives some distance away, will read the brief description, call me, and have a different understanding of what we mean by "good or excellent" condition. Towards that end, I have posted a link to a website where I have lots of pictures showing the boat in great detail. In this way, a potential buyer will have already seen the good and bad of the boat. I realize this is the exception, and by doing so, I may actually be hurting myself.

If this is true, you ARE the exception - and in a good way!

If you are willing to meet with a buyer, and tell him what you know - the good, the bad, and the ugly, and come across as being up front, then the buyer should trust you.

Tapping the deck with a hammer should not cause any damage. I could argue, however, that with a boat as new as your's (a 2001 Catalina 22?), it is new enough that core rot, delamination, and bulkhead rot should not be problems that the buyer should be concerned about.

When I saw "Slip Queen" it was not shown by the owner, or a broker, but by a friend of the owner. He did not know the details of the boat, and couldn't answer my detailed questions. The owner described this vessel to me as in "Bristol condition" - "must sell"

• I noticed that there was a patch on the starboard hull and high moisture on that area of the deck.
• I later learned that the boat had broken a spring line, and had rubbed against a piling causing damage to the deck and hull.
• I found that the boat had been left for long periods of time, and the "new" batteries had drained from running the bilge pump.
• I found the mickey mouse wiring (wire nuts should NEVER be used on a vessel - especially in the bilge).
• I found that the head had not been used because the pump was broken.
• I found that the stove was never used because the gas solenoid had corroded off, and the propane tank was a NON OPD tank.
• I found that the keel bolts (pictured above) were severely corroded because of stagnant water in the bilge.
• I found that the engine was in desperate need of service. It was vibrating so badly, that I believe that it will need new motor mounts.

I could go on...

"Bristol" my eye

After finding these issues, I decided that the owner was NOT honest or up front with me. No trust = NO deal.

FWIW - I would not allow anyone to drill holes in my boat either.

[calden]

Going into buying a third (and bigger!!) boat over the last 6 years, I've got some thoughts on this thread.

1) Americans are known the world over as having an inability to negotiate. We HATE to haggle prices, are not that good at it, get offended easily around it all, and don't have cultural training in learning how to do it. Thus you often have situations where the buyer or seller is doing what they think is negotiation and the other party thinks they are just being personally offended. I've seen this a lot when I lived in Asia and watched American tourists in markets.

2) When I have sold my two boats I took pictures of everything that looked the least bit fixed or off in any way and described them in detail. I did not soft soap anything, often taking pains to specify what were minor possible issues. I want my buyer to know exactly what they are getting in part for their peace of mind in making an offer and in part so I won't get a call a month in the future with someone screaming at me "why didn't you tell me there were some blisters on the hull?"

3) Surveys are good. It's possible to specify a non-destructive survey with no destructive poking, cutting, banging. Using a phenolic hammer does not mark anything up, and only that or rapping with knuckles should be done.
It is possible to negotiate the cost of a survey between buyer and seller. It's USUALLY done by the buyer, but splitting the cost benefits both buyer and seller. As a buyer, if I do not buy a boat based on the survey then the seller has a very recent survey to show the next buyer. It also gives the seller information about the boat that he may not have had, and a chance to fix things that are dangerous or that may raise the value and benefit the seller price-wise. Of course I'm assuming the seller has nothing to hide and wants to play fair. A very good tool for negotiation plus or minus on both sides.

4) I totally agree with the suggestions that in the above case it was fruitless to negotiate with the older gent.

I'm right now waiting for a survey completion on an old friend's boat. I have no doubt of my friend's honesty and diligence in having kept his boat up, but this may point out some items he wasn't aware of and we'll both be happy to know that.

I also had a survey done on a boat I hadn't yet seen but was going to drive 300 miles to view. When I saw the boat I had a lot of good information already and it was really helpful. Primarily I saw that the owner had not made it ready to sell, and there were potential problems that might pop up unseen to either of us. I declined.

Carlos

[CapnBilll]

Originally Posted by CBinRI

Sometimes I wonder if guys like this are only listing the boat so they can tell their wife they are trying to sell it.

WOAH! WOAH! Sssshhhhhh! What are you trying to do??? I've been telling my wife I'm selling the boat at 200% markup for years. So far I've only had to turn down a couple of buyers that actually tried to buy it. I'm not the only one, I've seen Megayachts advertised at grossly inflated prices, (I've heard this is a common practice for tax writeoffs).