Twin Keel sailboat? - Page 3 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree4Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
Old 07-21-2009
hellosailor's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,896
Thanks: 2
Thanked 103 Times in 100 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Bluebird, 1939, radical new twin keel design.

OK, so 70 years later, like the secret power source of Atlantis, the modern world has lost all knowledge of why this is a better design, and it has disappeared from the face of the earth?

I don't say the mass market is always right, just that when something becomes THAT SCARCE there is usually a good reason it failed to take the world by storm. Or stealth.

In the 80's didn't they promise us the Scheel Keel would dominate the world within ten years? Did anyone count to ten yet?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #22  
Old 07-21-2009
mitiempo's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Victoria B.C. Canada
Posts: 7,284
Thanks: 0
Thanked 79 Times in 70 Posts
Rep Power: 8
mitiempo will become famous soon enough mitiempo will become famous soon enough
Hellosailor
If everybody sailed a Catalina, or a Farr 38, or an old shoe like many on this site own and love the world would be a very boring place. I wonder how many Sailnet members own boats that are based on designs from the early part of the last century or even earlier? How many sail schooners? How many sail Bristol Channel Cutters - based on the Falmouth Working Cutters?
How many would lust after a design like the Westerman 40? We all know or should that sailing is the world's most expensive way to travel slowly. If one picks a Westsail or an old schooner or a racing tri they all enjoy what they sail. Enjoyment is not measured in speed for all. Character and style rate highly with many. Variety can be found even in some designers portfolios. The Westerman 40 is designed by Nigel Irens who also designed Idec and many other racing tris. A lot of designs are regional and just as the east coast has its share of boats harking back to a century ago England has its unique designs. Twin keel boats are very common in the UK - not so much here but they can be found. They can represent good value and are often very solid cruisers. If you want to race you won't buy one. The same can be said for a Westsail 32 or that old schooner. Should they be denigrated? I don't think so. How many twin keel boats have you sailed by the way?
Respectfully
Brian
Attached Thumbnails
Twin Keel sailboat?-westerman_40.jpg   Twin Keel sailboat?-idec.jpg   Twin Keel sailboat?-westsail_32.jpg   Twin Keel sailboat?-centaur.jpg  
bristol299bob likes this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #23  
Old 07-22-2009
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 46
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
mallo is on a distinguished road
Hi Jeff
Thanks for the information regarding comparing the Westerly’s, I would expect a fin keel to be slightly faster than a bilge keel due to the extra wetted surface (extra drag) and on a cruising boat that shouldn’t be much of an issue, I am sure that the Bluebird’s would have been faster if they were a fin keel configuration, I also agree because I had a conversation with Robin Riverdale about the fact that the modern bilge keel boats were a traditional boat with slight modification and two plates just stuck on, they didn’t necessarily have the angles and toe in as the boats Robin had produced.
I haven’t sailed in the more recent Bluebird’s they were more along the lines of the moody etc.
Its interesting what you said regarding the fact you couldn’t keep up with the fin keeled boat when in the bilge keeled boat, but could when the other way round, how much time/distance were you loosing/making??

Hellosailer
It probably was a radical new design in the 1920’s and when Robin built the first one and he must of thought he could better with the design, that was why he built the successive ones. Another fact is that they still build bilge keelers (well they do in the UK) now however it’s quicker, less work and less expensive to build a fin keel as a bilge keel and at the bottom line this is what the customer wants. This is why they aren’t too popular in non tidal waters (well minimal rise and fall). I would not like to pay to have a hand built steel boat built now, it would be prohibitively expensive. If I took you out sailing and didn’t tell you the boat was a bilge keeler I doubt you would think the boat was slow…
Life would be very boring as Mitiempo says if we all stood by a standard fin keel, he brings up a few good points. Also having a boat with a bit of character, history makes for some of the fun, after all that’s why we sail……
Respectfully
Michael
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #24  
Old 07-22-2009
hellosailor's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,896
Thanks: 2
Thanked 103 Times in 100 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Michael, "slow" is a relative concept. Bluebird might be a fast boat, for many reasons. And equally important a sweet boat, what used to be called "yar". But these days, if a boat can't qualify for a negative PHRF rating, well, she may not be slow but she's also not fast. (G)

Odds are there's a lot lost in getting to that negative PHRF rating, but there's also a market still for "better" boats, and twin keel variations simply haven't taken any market share that I know of--aside from places where the water is so poorly disciplined that it slips away right out from under the boats at least once or twice a day. (VBG)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #25  
Old 07-22-2009
Jeff_H's Avatar
Moderator
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Annapolis, Md
Posts: 6,680
Thanks: 5
Thanked 105 Times in 81 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about Jeff_H has a spectacular aura about
A couple quick notes here, first of all, I certainly agree with Mitempo's point about the desirability to have a diverse collection of boats available to suit the diverse range of tastes out there. In my own case, I have enjoyed owning and sailing a very wide range of boats, and in particular have enjoyed seeing their virtues and liabilities. Although I currently own and lean towards modern performance sailing craft, I certainly enjoyed owning and sailing my 1949 wooden Folkboat or my 1939 Stadel Cutter which was based on the 1800's era pilot schooner George Steers.

I want to clarify that I do think that there are venues for which a bilge keel boat makes sense but based on my experience with bilge keels. It is only because of the venues in which I sail, and my tastes in how i sail that I can't imagine a circumstance in which a bilge keel boat would make sense.

With regards to HelloSailors comments about the Scheel Keel, although the Scheel Keel as originally patented by Henry Scheels is comparatively rare today, the basic principles of the Scheel Keel design concept (a bulb keel whose shape is opimized to minimize drag, increase endplate effect while lowering the vertical center of gravity of the boat) is widely used today in everything from basic production cruisers to grand prix race boats.

Jeff
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Curmudgeon at Large- and rhinestone in the rough, sailing my Farr 11.6 on the Chesapeake Bay
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #26  
Old 10-14-2009
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
bentheboat is on a distinguished road
Hi Gonesailin40,
It's probably too late to be of help to you now - you've probably got your boat!
However, for what it's worth, the Westerly Centaur is very highly thought of here in the UK. They are one of the most popular yachts ever built, you see more of them around than practically any other type.
I have never owned one myself but have sailed them and have had friends who have owned them. They are very seaworthy boats, and sail better to windward than people generally expect a bilge keeler to. There's a surprising amount of room in them and they are generally well built. I think that you need have no qualms about buying one, they're good.
Regards,
Ben (UK)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #27  
Old 03-31-2013
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Malagash, Nova Scotia
Posts: 3
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 0
Granea is on a distinguished road
Re: Twin Keel sailboat?

I have been sailing a Westerly W 25 for several years.
She is as she came from the factory and I am loth to change anything.
Pointing? Well I am slower but I go upwind close hauled with in 2 or 3 degrees of the best. Bow on W 25 is a bit blunt so to keep speed I need to bear off a bit.
Certainly a bit slower but when the rest head in I am still happy.
Very stiff and hard to knock down. I have been out when the sane stay ashore.
The Westerly's or mine are slege hanner tough.
Hit a cement block at 7 k with starboard bilge keel. Beached her to check damage and nothing. Cement block.. knocked chunk out of that... but hope it does not happen again.
Rust? Never mind they are cast. Chip it out if you want and fill and smoth. Lay the epoxy on wax paper and lay it into place smoothing to shape.
You or I at least end up sneaking into places maybe one sould stay out of as they draw so little water and I ofen beach to explor with a stern anchor out and bow tied to tree or rock.
The W 25 has three keels. Center and two bilge. Rudder is protected by the center keel.
Resale? You get one of these and why sell it?
This one stays in the family and grand children are learning to sail on her.
Mine saled over to Nova Scotia from Ireland. Owners manual says she will ride out any storm. I hope I never need to find out but I expect she would do much better than 90% of what goes past me on race day. ( I do not bother with races but when any sail boat comes along face it you are racing? )
Not for everone but I love the old lady.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #28  
Old 03-31-2013
Alex W's Avatar
no longer reading SailNet
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,309
Thanks: 2
Thanked 139 Times in 133 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Alex W is on a distinguished road
Re: Twin Keel sailboat?

The first boat that I ever sailed on was a twin keel Hurley 20 or 22, but I was only a couple of months old. My parents sold that boat when I was about a year old. They had it on the Chesapeake bay (Sassafras River)

My impression was that they had it for it's low draft (2.5ft vs 3.75ft). This makes me wonder how it compares to a shoal keel, which also suffers from increased wetted surface, higher displacement, and poor pointing when compared to a fin keel.

It's unlikely that I'll ever sail one. The rocky and steep coast of the PNW isn't that helpful for standing the boat up on it's keel, even if we do get larger tides than most of the US.
__________________
I'm no longer participating on SailNet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #29  
Old 03-31-2013
hellosailor's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 10,896
Thanks: 2
Thanked 103 Times in 100 Posts
Rep Power: 10
hellosailor has a spectacular aura about hellosailor has a spectacular aura about
Re: Twin Keel sailboat?

That's marvelous, it only took 3-1/2 years for one owner to stumble across the old thread.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
  #30  
Old 03-31-2013
Alex W's Avatar
no longer reading SailNet
 
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 2,309
Thanks: 2
Thanked 139 Times in 133 Posts
Rep Power: 3
Alex W is on a distinguished road
Re: Twin Keel sailboat?

Sorry, normally I notice and don't get involved. This one had enough still current regulars that I didn't check the dates. Oh well.
__________________
I'm no longer participating on SailNet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message Share with Facebook
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

By choosing to post the reply above you agree to the rules you agreed to when joining Sailnet.
Click Here to view those rules.

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the SailNet Community forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
Please note: After entering 3 characters a list of Usernames already in use will appear and the list will disappear once a valid Username is entered.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fin Keel or Shoal Keel acmecoyote General Discussion (sailing related) 11 05-06-2011 05:39 PM
Keel Bolt Repairs Don Casey Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 11-10-2003 08:00 PM
Short Keel vs Normal SEAJM General Discussion (sailing related) 1 03-12-2003 03:13 AM
Internal Ballast vs. External Ballast windship General Discussion (sailing related) 3 09-15-2002 05:33 PM
Moondancer 's Keel and Masts Michelle Potter Buying a Boat Articles 0 09-09-2000 09:00 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 07:04 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.