Blinded by reputation

[CalebD]

Alan,
I doubt that you will be 'kicked off' this forum for talking too much. It is also true that your questions are somewhat quotidian and everyday on this forum.
I happen to like your list of boat choices as I too like the old school style of full keel heavily built sailboats. There are others here who will trumpet the newer style, less robustly built boats as blue water cruisers. I don't have an ax to grind in this debate, I just like what I like and I like boats that were built a bit heavier then the production models of today. I also have no plans to go (back) to Iraq or Afghanistan (never been there).
I do like the Cape Dory boats and I also like the Tartan 27' that I do own. One of my fellow owners did some modifications and has his T27 out in the South Pacific near Vanuatu. Most of us just stay closer to home - wherever that happens to be.
My boat partner always wants to get new sails for racing our old boat and I seem to want storm sails (trisail and storm jib). Who is thinking about longer range cruising?
Blue water safety equipment is expensive: life raft, SSB radio or SAT phone, computer, chart plotter hooked into dependable autopilot, Radar and/or AIS, Jack lines for clipping on tethers while going forward, etc, etc. This stuff does not usually come cheap. Add in new standing rigging wires and you are easily at 10K even if your boat only costs 4K.
My best.

[davidpm]

Originally Posted by alanr77

I know nothing about sailboats.

Welcome aboard Alan. I think I know exactly how you feel. I was in the same place 30 years ago and still remember the indecision and frustration.

You asked a lot of good questions in a forum filled with people with thousands of years total experience. Unfortunately however a good answer for you to each question is going to be based on what kind of sailor you are and what kind of person you are.
Since you are not a sailor and we know almost nothing about you, all the answers you get are going to be based on just guesses regarding you.

So I'm going to attempt to give you some general guidance that you can apply to your own situation.
I'm going to make one assumption. That assumption is that you do not have a trust fund that you can tap for a few 10's of thousands whenever you want to and are looking to achieve your dream for the least money. If you do have access to a lot of cash please mention it as the recommendations may change.

Rather than focusing on what kind of boat to buy, full keel, coastal, blue water, standing headroom etc. focus on becoming a sailor. Do not spend a dime extra that doesn't move you toward that goal.
You may not have to buy a boat to become a sailor. Clubs, other peoples boats, work at a boat yard etc may get you on the water for the next six months.
If you do have to buy a boat the only goal is to get a boat that will get you on the water as much as possible. A club 420, laser, small day sailor anything sail-able. If you get something that needs work you will be working on a boat instead of becoming a sailor. A big boat for 10 to 20k will take up a lot of time not sailing.

If you work at it hard for two years you will have spent almost no money and then you will be a sailor.
The little boat you can sell for what you paid for it.

You have a huge learning curve to be a safe, happy competent ocean sailor.
You can with luck and hard work accomplish anything.
The problem with ocean cruising is that the chances of someone making all the hundreds of decisions correctly that there life depends on then make the hundreds of decisions correctly to make if affordable and the hundreds of decisions correctly to make it fun takes more luck than most people have.
If you focus on becoming a sailor first, make the personnel contacts, learn about yourself in the context of sailing I believe your journey will be more fun, safer and you are much more likely to achieve your dream.

You are welcome to call If you just want to talk as I have some personal experience in exactly this subject.

One of my favorite sailing stories the idea that all sailors start out with a big full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. The goal is to fill up the bag of experience be for the bag of luck is empty.

In short the reason why this is so hard for you is because "you don't know nutten". Do what you need to do to get some water under you keel and you have an easier time.

[Sequitur]

Originally Posted by sarafinadh

... And as far as picking a boat, I know only enough to be dangerous so I wouldn't dream of advising anyone on whet to buy, but I will say that I truely believe that there is a bit of magic involved in the process of selecting a companion as intimate as a boat...

Research until you have a solid understanding of what you are looking for and at.

And then go looking. All that brain knowledge will oversee the gestalt of your emotional connection when you step aboard the right one.

At some point what seems complicated, obscure and difficult will become clear and straightforward.

Good luck!

Wow! Now there is some of the best boat-buying attitude and philosophy I have heard in a long time.

[mitiempo]

alanr77
The posters are right. It takes a fair amount of money to equip a small sailboat for extensive offshore travels. I am doing that right now. Just today on another post on this site a link was posted to a Vega 27 that was for sale (now sold) listing the equipment additions the owner made. I think you will find it informative. I'm not talking about fixing what needs it (although that is going to happen with any 20 - 30 year old boat as well), but additions like rewiring, electronics, wind vane, sail additions, etc. Look at this site and add up the prices - you might be surprised.
Brian
Whisper is for sale!
The Log of Whisper

[OhioTom]

Where are you stationed?

When I was stationed at Camp Lejeune I had a friend who used his VA loan to buy a 30-odd footer and lived aboard at the MWR marina. It was really cheap. His dock fees and utilities were way less than paying property taxes on a house.

That may be a way to go for you. Just get a decent coastal cruiser and learn to sail locally. Once its time to retire, you can always sell that boat and buy another once you've figured out what you really want.

The one thing you can absolutely guarantee is that with no experience, you will no way, never (no matter how good your research) pick the right boat the first time. Best bet is to buy something decent and cheap that is good enough for what you need right now and sail it as often as you can.

[alanr77]

Thank you all for the advice. Points taken and considered.

No, I have no trust fund. Just a good income and some assets that will serve me later in life. However, even if I did, I do not want to spend 25k on the purchase of this boat. There is no need based on my goals and ambitions. Besides, that goes against my way of doing things. Example: My neighbor bought a 3k riding tractor last year. I got on craigslist and found one for $100.00. $65 in parts and for the last year and a half I have his wife yelling at him for spending the 3k on a tractor when my $165 one cuts the grass just as good, starts just as easily so on....you get the point. I have a little money because I don't spend alot of it.

Maybe I am making this much more complicated than it really is. I never had this issue when choosing a powerboat. You simply went with what you liked- and I liked Chris Craft speedboats and cruisers- spent alot of time on a 32' Constellation and a 20' Rivera. There just seems to be so much more to sailing than powerboating. So many different factors. I never thought I would witness two people arguing over a hull design because one goes 1 knot faster than the other.

If there is one thing that I will take immediate heed to it is the advice to get on the water now in a keel boat- and continue with my training. I am registering for the RSA courses here shortly. I have tried to get in touch with the local sailing center here but know one likes to return phone calls or emails. I guess they have enough students and are out sailing all the time.

Parts are about complete for the 16' Beach cat I have and I should be on it soon. Apparently it does not count as "real sailing experience though"..?..? -I have read many articles as to why...some convincing, some not.

I forgot about the vane. Though wouldn't this be something I would need a few years from now? Remember, I would be sailing the coast of Georgia and Florida for the next six or seven years.

OhioTom; I am stationed in Savannah Georgia. Unfortunately, my VA certificate is tied up in a 2500sq' house on an acre of land that I rarely use. Not to mention Georgia has a nice little "no live aboard" law that is apparently enforced. After serving this chunk of land we call the US for the better part of my life, I am still appalled by some of the laws WE allow to pass. But that's for another forum....

Thanks for all the opinions, perhaps in the RSA courses I will meet others with similar ambitions....cause as of now all my powerboat friends do nothing but laugh at me...have a friend who just bought a 30' sportfish, twin 300 mercs who has already "volunteered" to come pull me out when I run out of wind and ground my keel into the sand... such good friends..... A

[davidpm]

Originally Posted by alanr77

Thanks for all the opinions, perhaps in the RSA courses I will meet others with similar ambitions....cause as of now all my powerboat friends do nothing but laugh at me...have a friend who just bought a 30' sportfish, twin 300 mercs who has already "volunteered" to come pull me out when I run out of wind and ground my keel into the sand... such good friends..... A

Having some sailor friends will make all the difference. The power guys can be nice but they just don't get it.

I love your tractor story.

The advantage of getting a little more water under your keel is to reduce the risk of spending 10,000 on a boat that needs more work than you anticipated and then spend a year or more (not sailing) and who knows how many thousands and it still doesn't work out well.
Don't ask how I know.

[bheintz]

alanr77,

I like your plan -- retire in six years on a 32 foot sailboat, relax and enjoy life. Also your shortlist of boats is thorough, cautious, reasonable, and modest. Seems that you have done your homework.

Just like the others on this thread, I have a few reservations.

All I want is a small boat- under 32' with the basics or at least the capability to add them

What do you consider the basics? AC electricity? Hot and cold running water?, clean dry clothes? The smaller the boat the less likely you will have these luxuries when not "tied to the dock." Not all of us need that stuff, some do.

I don't mean to be a killjoy, but a sailboat is not a riding tractor, rarely does anyone who had little or no sailing experience spend less than they expected on a boat.
- One of the pitfalls of buying a used boat is you don't know the history of the boat.
- The second is having to replace things that you thought were perfectly serviceable at the time you made the purchase.
- A third is fixing things that were not done right the first time, or improperly repaired.
- Forth, electronics do not last forever, they are generally expensive. Eventually they become obsolete and no one can find replacement components to fix them. Older systems may not be compatible with newer ones (analog vs. MNEA 0183 vs. N2K vs. CANbus)
- Five, repairs take longer than you expect. A good rule of thumb is to think of everything conceivable thing that you will need to do to make the repair and assign a time value, add it all up, then double it. (if you're not experienced with the job, double it again.)
- Six, sails cost money: to maintain, to repair, to replace.

with a good skipper-(me with experience and training)

To gain blue-water sailing experience requires the knowledge and skill acquired over a period of time, especially that gained in the most adverse conditions. For many it takes a lifetime to gain enough experience to calmly withstand the most averse weather conditions. Next time there is a squall, gale, thunderstorm, hurricane, typhoon, etc. consider what it would be like to be out in it -- if you were 100 miles offshore, you would be 20 hours away from the nearest shelter. Now imagine your engine stalls: clogged fuel filter, water in tank, line wrapped around the prop, etc. OR Your rigging fails: broken gooseneck, parted halyard, the roller-furling unfurls, a spreader breaks, etc. OR Your sea-anchor breaks the hardware off the deck and drifts away . . . You'll find that a 26-32' sailboat handles very differently than a 15' Boston Whaler in those conditions.


We all want you to enjoy your dream, we also want you to avoid the many pitfalls that may discourage you along the way.

[lporcano]

seeya

[alanr77]

Thanks everyone for some very thoughtful replies to some of my concerns.

bheintz; Basics to me are:

A place to cook

A place to hang a sun shower

A place to safely store dry/canned goods

A comfortable place to sleep

Ability to stand up when below deck

Ability to get out of the weather and warm up/cool down or dry off

And finally, a head that I don't have to be a contortionist to use

I was serious when I said I really don't need much to be happy. If I want to sit in a hot tub I will go to a Hotel. I am sure there are plenty in some of the areas I want to go.

Not to mention, I have to intent to "set off towards Australian waters in six weeks"...while spending three months at sea. Hell, I may find that I like the Islands south of Florida and never really leave there.

Storms...I can remember quite well at the age of eight helping my father ride out a storm that blew through the Chesapeake Bay area in the fall of 1985. Some of you may remember that storm. It was safer to ride it out than to stay at the dock. That was in a 45' CCraft Connie. that kind of weather demands respect and I would prefer to watch that stuff on TV than be out in a boat through it. Proper weather planning seems to be of the utmost importance.

I am starting to see a trend in the replies though- and it is shaping some thoughts in my head. It seems that the idea (and I agree) is that I need to get on the water. So, there are plenty of small trailer able weekenders in the local area that are ready to sail. (or for the most part) and would require minimal investment to launch. I can afford both worlds- buy a 1500k daysailer, spend time on it learning the intricate art of trimming sails and such. Keep the Beachcat for when the wind is to light for anything. Find the Triton or Bristol I want- put it in the building I am constructing behind the house and restore it. In the end, all can be sold except what I choose to keep.

What are the benefits of swapping an Atomic four for an equivalent size diesel? Fuel economy?