In mast furling - Page 2 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #11  
Old 11-14-2009
danielgoldberg's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 679
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 7
danielgoldberg is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by Faster View Post
On that note, does anyone know if, on these boats, a standard mast/boom and main are an EXTRA COST option? It used to be that an in-mast furling system was a $10K+ premium.
Can only speak to the Benes. Now in-mast is standard, and if you can believe it, it costs MORE to have a standard main (can't remember the price, but it was in the $10K range). That shocked me.
__________________
Dan Goldberg

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #12  
Old 11-14-2009
Zanshin's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Germany
Posts: 2,165
Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 14 Posts
Rep Power: 9
Zanshin is on a distinguished road
I had in-mast furling in a Jeanneau 43 and now in the 49 and have never had problems with the system and have no reservations at all.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #13  
Old 11-14-2009
SecondWindNC's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Washington, NC
Posts: 510
Thanks: 3
Thanked 4 Times in 4 Posts
Rep Power: 6
SecondWindNC is on a distinguished road
We have in-mast furling on a couple of our charter boats (coastal N.C.), and they work very well for that purpose. The charterers do not report having trouble with the systems, and they've worked great for me when I've used the boats, as well.

If you're racing, a full-battened main does offer better sail shape. And I do understand the concern among some serious bluewater cruisers about having something go wrong in extreme conditions; on the other hand I have been in pretty nasty conditions in the Gulf Stream on our Catalina 36 with in-mast and didn't have any problem using the furler to reduce sail, all from the cockpit.

So there are pros and cons, as with everything, and there are some valid concerns, but in my experience they can be a good choice, particularly for coastal cruising and occasional offshore trips. I would also think that the systems have improved quite a bit now that they've been in use for some time. I think the manufacturers are using them more and more because they are a good choice for the casual sailors who make up the majority.
__________________
Carolina Wind Yachting Center, Washington, NC
Charters * Brokerage * Pacific Seacraft * Zodiac


To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.


Who is staring at the sea is already sailing a little.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #14  
Old 11-14-2009
sailingdog's Avatar
Telstar 28
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: New England
Posts: 43,291
Thanks: 0
Thanked 9 Times in 9 Posts
Rep Power: 13
sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice sailingdog is just really nice
The main issues with in-mast furling, which has gotten a lot better, are additional weight aloft, lack of roach on the mainsail, and the serious problems that can result if it does jam.

With in-boom furling, you can still drop the mainsail if the system jams, and then lash it to the boom. If an in-mast furling setup jams, you're basically screwed.
__________________
Sailingdog

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Telstar 28
New England

You know what the first rule of sailing is? ...Love. You can learn all the math in the 'verse, but you take
a boat to the sea you don't love, she'll shake you off just as sure as the turning of the worlds. Love keeps
her going when she oughta fall down, tells you she's hurting 'fore she keens. Makes her a home.

—Cpt. Mal Reynolds, Serenity (edited)

If you're new to the Sailnet Forums... please read this
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Still—DON'T READ THAT POST AGAIN.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #15  
Old 11-14-2009
danielgoldberg's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: New York
Posts: 679
Thanks: 0
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Rep Power: 7
danielgoldberg is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulk View Post
I would run the other way from in-mast furling, for the reasons mentioned above and:
1. noise at anchor from wind whistling in the slot
2. "Operator error" most likely at most inopportune moment
3. lack of battens making sail shape a nonsense term
4. lack of battens making sail noise (flapping) and wearing sail out sooner
5. vertical battens (if you have them) that WILL poke through their pockets and get stuck inside the mast
5. reefing keeps sail area high on the mast when you want it there least
6. how to fix things that jam 20' up in a 5' sea (it won't jam when it's flat)

It sounds to me that though many people may profess to enjoying their in-mast r/f systems, they're like the fox who lost his tail in the trap. Boom-mounted systems, though they may have some of the same and other issues, seem to make much more sense.
I have a very similar view to Vasco and CD on this. I used to think in-mast furling mains had many potential problems and drawbacks. Now that I have one (obtained with much skepticism and thoughts of "we'll see what happens"), I've changed my tune. It is true that you lose sail area. That's just one of the trade offs you need to accept. We have vertical battens, so we have some roach, but it's not the same as a traditional roachy main.

Likewise, I still am waiting for the first jam when trying to furl or deploy, but we haven't come close yet, and we've used the system in a few less than ideal situations (e.g., reefing on a beam reach). But when it happens, I'm sure I'll curse the thing.

I'm posting this as a reply to PaulK's post because I think he pretty much hit the highlights of the perceived disadvantages, and he's not wrong. That said, I do think some of the stated concerns are overblown:

1. Noise at anchor. We haven't experienced this at all. If the sail is not in the mast, then you can get some noise from the spindle inside the mast clanking around if the boat is moving. We take the sail out only for winter storage, and on land the boat's not moving (hopefully), so we don't view this as a real problem.

2. Operator error. This is true, but it's also true about so many other aspects of sailing, even on boats with traditional mains. For instance, battens hanging up on lazy jacks, engaging tranny with a sheet in the water, getting on override on winch somewhere. I do agree, a furling main does add one more thing for which operator error can cause a problem, but it's one more thing, it's not a new concept.

3. True dat.

4. Only half true. Traditional mains flap too, and many traditional mains don't have full battens.

5. I don't have any experience with this, so I can't really comment. I will note that if you are right that battens poking through the main is a real issue, it would be more difficult to inspect on a furling main than on a traditional because the battens do not regularly come down to the deck where they can be viewed easily.

5 (your second "5"). True, but overblown. You are lowering the center of effort on the mainsail when she's getting furled, but you also are keeping weight aloft with that portion of the furled main that remains high on the mast. But you are right, as compared to a traditional main the center of effort is higher when reefed.

6. Again, I think you are right, and it's one of the disadvantages.

Don't underestimate the advantages, however. And several of those advantages fall into the safety category:

First, you are more likely to reef and reef early because it's easier. Don't underestimate this. How many times have you delayed reefing because it's a hassle, and then you find yourself on deck hanging on for dear life wrestling a malevolent mainsail? That's a much more dangerous place to be than in the cockpit furling up a mainsail with less than perfect shape.

Second, and similar to the first point, you can change gears much more easily, which means you are more likely to have the right amout of sail up more often. This applies to shaking out a reef too; think about the number of times you left the reef in even when the winds lightened simply because you didn't want to bother with the reef.

Third, because it's easier to deploy and reef, you are more likely to use the main, and frankly, more likely to go sailing.

Fourth, it's just plain easier, and if you're cruising, particularly short-handed, that counts.

Fifth, you are not folding the sail, so you're getting less wear (though this might be offset by chafe you might get when furling/unfurling the sail).

Sixth, the sail doesn't collect water when the boat is not in use.

Anyway, there is no doubt that there are plusses and minuses to furling mainsails, but with the advent of better furling mechanisms, vertical and/or inflatable battens, the scale tilts are lot more to the plusses today than it did 10 years ago.
__________________
Dan Goldberg

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.

Last edited by danielgoldberg; 11-14-2009 at 03:57 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #16  
Old 11-14-2009
Faster's Avatar
Just another Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: New Westminster, BC
Posts: 14,627
Thanks: 68
Thanked 187 Times in 179 Posts
Rep Power: 10
Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about Faster has a spectacular aura about
Nice balanced summary, Dan!
__________________
Ron

1984 Fast/Nicholson 345 "FastForward"

".. there is much you could do at sea with common sense.. and very little you could do without it.."
Capt G E Ericson (from "The Cruel Sea" by Nicholas Monsarrat)
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #17  
Old 11-14-2009
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: British Columbia
Posts: 529
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 5
kootenay is on a distinguished road
Thanks Dan for the great post. There is a philosophy in Scuba diving called DIR or Doing it right. The concept is to severely reduce the risk associated with Tech diving by eliminating any superfluous equipment risks. Now as a rec diver I use what makes sense and continue to use equipment to make it easier and more comfortable. It seems to me that Roller furled mains are much the same. If you are a serious offshore sailer it seems that a standard main is really the best way to go. If you are a coastal cruiser or a week end sailer then a furled main is probably an acceptable risk. I am going to look at them in a different light now. With an open mind.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #18  
Old 11-14-2009
Vitesse473's Avatar
Wannabe Sailing Bum
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 142
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 7
Vitesse473 is on a distinguished road
Probably the best advice I can give is something any long time boat owner will appreciate and agree with. That is...the less mechanical devices you deal with, the happier the sailor you will be in the long run.

I'm totally biased, as I sought out a Bene that did not have the mast furler. It's 1) mechanical, 2) not safe in heavy weather, and 3) slow

I love my stack pack. The hoist is a breeze, the drop is a snap. After I drop, it's a simple zip of the pack. Lot's easier than dealing with a jam.

Full disclosure. I have thought about how great the in boom furling would be, but again, it's mechanical and bound to break, and I've much better things to spend money on.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #19  
Old 11-15-2009
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: NY Metro
Posts: 52
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
cutterorient is on a distinguished road
FWIW, I sailed on a boat from Bermuda to NY with an in mast furler and that pretty much made up my mind. Even the owner didn't fully trust it and it was stock from the factory on a french boat starting with j. The leech was thrashed and made noise the entire way, sail shape was poor. Any convenience seemed offset by a nagging feeling of uncertainty.

For kicking around a bay on a small boat, I think it would be great.

On my boat I have the Tides Marine Strong Track and think it a terrific thing as well as being very simple - just the way I like it. Main goes up by hand and down as fast as you want it to.

I don't even like my headsail furler. It is often a p.i.t.a. but it just so happens to make for convenient storgae of a large sail. My staysail is a hank on and I can report 100 % function and zero problems. Plus it looks cool.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #20  
Old 11-16-2009
October Moon B43
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: SE Pennsylvania
Posts: 400
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 6
MJBrown is on a distinguished road
Once they're set up (halyard tension is key) they're fine. You have to head up to furl, unfurl but you would do that with any sail. I've been heaving to then furling the main and it works like a charm. The genny blankets the main which makes furling a snap. As for troubles, if it starts to jam you just pull it back in a foot or two, take the wind out of it and pull it back out. People get into trouble when they try to force it. BTW a standard main is now "optional" but not sure if there's a cost to it. I think it depends on the manufacturer.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Roller Furling Lay Up Tom Wood Gear and Maintenance Articles 0 10-21-2003 08:00 PM
Is one better than the other? gandydancer Gear & Maintenance 7 07-11-2002 06:08 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:50 AM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.