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  #11  
Old 12-01-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_H View Post
With all due respect to my estemed colleague and co-moderator, I would argue that there is just about no such thing as a truly seaworthy performance cruiser-which is also an IOR rule based design.
....
Hey Jeff - you forgot to put the "roll eyes" icon after "esteemed colleague"

Anyway another excellent post, as usual. I'm not sure that we disagree - and the OPs specific reference to the older IOR boats puts the 'seaworthy' definition in a grey area anyhow - I guess I took the IOR part as the primary qualifier ....

My point was two fold... that you can get good value for the money in some of these boats, esp the non mainstream boats if you know what to look for- but that also these boats can be a bear to handle and require special consideration with short handed crews. So we agree on at least the latter point.

That we're sailing yet another "IOR"ish design is again, a function of budget vs boat size for the most part (btw, everybody, Jeff doesn't think much of our current boat either! )

But that's cool.... would I rather be sailing some of these other designs mentioned... surely. But we're managing to cruise quite nicely on a smaller investment overall and frankly I do enjoy owning something other than a "Benehuntalina"
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  #12  
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I don't think it is simple as all that. The IOR rule went through many revisions. The early boats tend to be a little less radical than the mid to late 80s designs. No way you are going to crew a mid 80s Farr 1 ton with a short crew and it was a fractional rig. Remember as designers figured out the nuance of the rule they designed to beat it. IOR bumps where put in there to fool the measurement process. The boat appeared to the rule to be slower than it was. Was it faster than a fair hull, no. Late in the rule boats were designed to go like banshees upwind and downwind because that is what a lot the racing evolved to. IOR racers of that era were reaching pigs because they tended to be beamy for form stability and they slowed down as they heeled on a reach and the water line shortened.

Lots of good production boats of that had an IOR flavor to their design. They weren't competitive with the purpose built boats and faded from the race scene. Sabre 38-1, Sabre 34-II, Tartan 37, C&C 37 etc would fall into this category.

Bottom line is that Jeff is right. A friend of mine tried to convert his Frers 39 to a cruiser. He shortened the keel, added wings and a bulb, retractable sprit. etc. It never worked out the well. The rig was too big and spindly. He needed to keep the runners, no deck lockers, little storage, high loads, expensive sails etc . The list is endless. Bottom line is that you are better finding a cruiser/racer from that era and fixing it up.

For the record I raced on these IOR boats at one time or another: Farr 37, Farr 40 1ton, C&C 3/4ton, Frers 39, Frers 50, C&C 39, J-34, DB-1 and a few others I can't remember. I wouldn't want to cruise any of them today.
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Old 12-01-2009
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Agreed, the spindly "must-have-runners-on-NOW" rigs are not suitable for 'cruising'. Our boat had a fairly robust section with checkstays for bend control, but did not rely on runners for rig integrity.

And I also agree that there are lots better boats for cruising than any old IOR boat. But the fact remains that there are a lot of such boats out there, be they IOR influenced production designs, or some of the better built custom jobs that can provide a lot of boat for the buck.

btw for the purpose of this discussion I'm not thinking 'blue water' cruising, but coastal. I definitely would not have considered cruising our 40 footer off shore - maybe doing a Vic Maui with a good crew, but.....
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I would say that among the worst examples
would be the Catalina 38 which was derived
from an early '70s S&S 1 Ton.
Similar to the Cal 39 would be a
North American 40, Islander 40,
C&C 38s, and Beneteau 38F.
I agree with Jeff's points as to why these
boats are somewhat undesirable as cruisers.
The rigs are tall and the boats require large
overlapping genoas. Their hull forms are great
for going to windward, but are slow and squirrely
in breezy reaching and running conditions.
Which is just the the type of sailing I think of
when I think of cruising passages.
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Old 12-02-2009
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Yep, the Catalina 38. It has a particularly nasty design feature. The boat has a lot of tumblehome. The outward bulge in the hull that is wider than the deck. It also has a fine entry. When going to weather in waves, the waves hit the front quarter of the hull and funnel up the tumblehome area to dump straight down on the deck and cockpit. On rough days the crew and helmsmen have the waves come crashing on them from above instead of spray hitting them in the face like a more conventional hull design. Not fun. What were Sparkman & Stephens thinking when they designed that one.
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  #16  
Old 12-02-2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by devemaster View Post
Jeff- Please let me know where you sail so I can stay as far away from there as possible.
Although based out of Annapolis, Maryland, I have mostly sailed the U.S. Atlantic Coast, and Florida Gulf Coast.

Jeff
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  #17  
Old 12-02-2009
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Devemaster,
Your next thread should be entitled, "List of Seaworthy Boats for the West Coast."
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  #18  
Old 12-05-2009
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Yes, thank you all. In fact (don't tell Jeff) I am thinking about sailing on the west coast. I've been researching boats for a coupla years now and have found some interesting patterns to the price and availability of different kinds of sailboats in different market areas.

But that's another topic. Meanwhile I continue to collect information in order to make a decision on what kind of sailboat to buy in order to cruise the Baja and then maybe head west down the trades. Perhaps I should just focus on the Baja for now as finding a boat that sailis well in the light and flukey and also can run down the trades may not be possible for less than $100k (which is my budget).

A good solid performance cruiser would be a compromise I could probably live with. I still have a bit of time before the theory can become a reality so I will keep looking and please offer any more information that seems relevant.
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I'd like to add that the original post mentioned "IOR like" boats, by which I meant boats designed in the spirit of the rule. Namely, reasonably safe for cruising but also with good enough performance to make buoy racing fun.

Certainly there were plenty of IOR specific rule-beaters that finished well but were never what the people who wrote the rules had in mind. I've raced on many of these designs on inland waters but would never consider taking one out to sea.

The Wauquiez Pretorien, Islander 36 and Cal 39 are my current favorites. Are there any other boats not yet mentioned that come close to these?
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  #20  
Old 12-06-2009
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I'm presently drooling over the Scanmar line of boats. IOR era, but intentionally designed to sail well rather than beat rules. The 35 is a semi-center cockpit. Rare, esp on the West Coast. Still a bit expensive. But nicely appointed & rock solid.

Hard to beat a Contessa 35 or 34OOD, too. Probably most of these boats will need additional tankage, and electrical upgrade, and improved ventilation for sailing in hot climates. Good luck in your search & keep us updated.
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