looking again: 2nd boat

[MtHopeBay]

A year ago I was looking for my first boat. Got one. Have sailed it for a year and am thinking about upgrading already. The issue isn't the boat's design, layout or performance, it's the cost of upgrading her. I bet lots of you have been there. The fault is mine because I was inexperienced and didn't know any better than to buy this boat.

I read all about inspection and what to look for, but I didn't know what old worn out lines were until I sailed with them and broke some. I didn't know what blown out sails were until I tried to sail with them. I didn't know what a poorly set up and executed electrical system was until I had to live with it for a season. The upgrade list is long and the result is that now I know better but I'm out a bunch of money and need to spend a bunch more on sails, running rigging, wiring, battery, etc. to bring this boat up to where I'd be happy sailing her for another season.

So I'm looking again because I think I can spend the same amount and get a much better boat than I ended up with. There were other boats that I was looking at a year ago for the same or a little less money that, in retrospect, would have been better boats.

Just crying in my beer.

[AdamLein]

How can you talk about your boat like that? You've taken her into your care and now she's your responsibility and all you can think about is passing her off to somebody else? What if this were a puppy?!?

I'm kind of in the same place you are. Only I knew when I was going in that I could easily end up with a lot of work to do and that that was a major part of what I wanted out of the boat. Since then I've learned to splice, mend sails, paint, do basic motor and battery maintenance, drill out frozen bolts, and step a mast. Again, these were all things I wanted. Maybe all you wanted was carefree afternoons on the water but if that's the case I think boat ownership may not be for you And we still had plenty of carefree afternoons on the water. Besides I've seen your pictures on your Eastwind page, especially the one of you with the big crazy grin. Give her another chance

First off, if you do want to sell her, and there's nothing wrong in that, you want people to want to buy her and if you think you got ripped off now, then probably you'll end up selling at a significant loss (unless you find somebody else equally how-shall-we-say inexperienced and how will that make you feel?).

Looking over your threads it looks like you've already learned quite a lot. And looking at your photos it seems like you've got a fine little boat. I love the bright yellow sails

So it sounds like the things that are "all screwed up" on your boat are the same as the things that are "all screwed up" on my boat. We also have a long upgrade list and we also want to eventually move up to another boat. Here's the way I'm thinking about the next couple of years:

First is whittle down the todo list to something that's a bit more manageable. Your top priority should be: what I do need to change to immediately improve the value I get from my boat? If your broken lines are preventing you from sailing then splurge on them... but your old blown out sails will still push your boat along so probably they can wait! We are also boating on a [super-tight] budget so I know what you're going through. Do the little things to keep her going and take the major projects one at a time, and keep your eyes open for the next boat. By then (two more seasons? Three?) you'll be in a much better position to convert the equity stored into the current boat into the next one.

Most importantly have some pride in your boat!

Oh and come up to the San Juans some time!

[Izzy1414]

Hey Mike,

Well, you know if you do start looking again you've got somebody down in this neck of the woods to go give it a preview for you. Every boat you buy is gunna be a constant battle of economics and only you can decide how best to win the war. That C22 in Medford was a sweet boat, and @ $2500 you could afford to put in some upgrades. Then again you would've had to deal with the guy who owned it. What a piece of work he was. The Tanzer 22 for the same price needed alot more elbow grease but what a stout little boat she is. My guess is that your decision on changing boats really depends on whether you like your Balboa or not. Sure, it'll cost some to bring her up to snuff, but if you like her, well at least you know what you got. Plenty of other holes in the water out there though.

[MtHopeBay]

I can put off deciding what to do with her. I have one more sailmaker to talk with and sails are the big ticket item.

The fact is, Adam's right. If I end up selling her it's going to be for a lot less than I paid because I have a sensitive conscience. I'm most likely going to sail her with the minimum $ spent this winter and see what comes up.

I'm mostly kicking myself for not knowing how to inspect and buy a used sailboat. I should have had an experienced owner look at it. Either of those boats down south would have been better.

Thanks for letting me vent.
Mike

[Jeff_H]

Actually, unless you substantially damaged the boat during the time that I owned her, I don't see why you feel that you must sell the boat for less than you paid for her. More likely than not, the price that you paid already reflected the age and condition of the boat and her gear at the time when you bought her. There is a reason that cheaply priced boats are cheaply priced. It is somewhat expected on an older boat that much of the normal gear is close to the end of its useful lifespan.

And as I have said many times before, boats like these can easily have a negative value if you intend to restore them to anywhere near 'like new'. The key to owning a boat like this is to understand the goal should be to maintain at a functional level. Where possible attempt to buy used gear in good condition, do as much of the work yourself, and don't try to get too fancy.

But this is also the reason that I typically advise people to chose carefully when taking on a project boat. There are a lot of project boats out there, with many asking relatively the same price and requiring relatively the same restoration costs. If you chose a good design, that sails well, has a nice interior layout and that was well made built to begin with, you will have a nice boat that will retain much of its value when you are done. But if you start with a throw away trailer sailer, whose initial build quality and sailing ability was never all that great, it gets pretty tough to recover even a small part of your investment.

In terms of selling the boat, you have an obligation to be honest in disclosing known defects that are beyond normal wear and tear. But what you have described as needing replacement sounds like normal long term aging for a boat of this age, and so the next owner would be expected to do his due diligence and attempt to understand what he is getting into and that the asking price of the boat takes these issues into account. Don't feel like you need to beat yourself up.

Respectfully,
Jeff

[AdamLein]

Mike, it sounds like I've scared you into thinking you're even worse off... what I wanted to emphasize is that you should be proud of the condition your boat is in when you sell her. Like Jeff says, that doesn't mean the condition has to be like new, but it should be safe, clean, and operational.

[Sabreman]

Stay with her! We've all been there and unless you buy a new boat there will always be a long list of "To-do's".

Instead of buying new sails, search the used sail sites. I just bought a nearly new 145% bi-radial genoa for a fraction of new. I hu=ighly recommend this route. I have direct experience or know of those who have experience with Bacon's in Annapolis and with Minney's. Both are good sail brokers.

Buy new lines and learn to splice, but remove them in the fall of each year, wash in the tub, dry, and store for spring. They'll last for at least 6 or more years.

When we bought Victoria, our list was long and we kept chipping at it. She's nearly complete and modernized although I expect that she'll never be done. In the process, I've learned this boat inside and out and find time to use her for long and short trips. There has been work, but a lot of fun too. The following is our list of completed tasks; I keep a detailed expenditure list on Quicken and know to the penny what this boat costs. Instead of depressing me, it helps keep the costs in perspective and helps me budget fro upgrades each year.

In addition to normal maintenance, I've keep a full log of things that have been repaired/upgraded such as

replace shaft w/stainless
replace trans coupling
replace cutlass bearing
replace stuffing box w/ shaft seal
replace steering wheel brake
install leather grip on steering wheel.rebuilding a bulkhead and cabinetry in the head (see the web link)
finishing the interior teak (there was NO finish and 20 years of grime); big job
refinish teak & holly cabin floor
replace the battery charger
rebuild the freshwater pump
replace galley faucet
replace all interior lighting
replace deck vents w/stainless
replace a rotted bulkhead in the anchor well
painting the anchor w/galvanized paint
refurb wind & speedo units
removing all bottom paint and fairing the hull below the water line
rebuild head
replace/tighten hull to deck hardware to stop leaks
rebed deck fittings
replace all running rigging
refurb/paint deck hatches
sew all blue deck canvas (winch covers, sail cover, bimini, etc)
remove, zero, reinstall compass (was off by up to 30 degrees)
refurb genoa sail by sailcare;
purchase nearly new 145% genoa
rebuild engine heat exchanger
replace starter soleniod
replace engine sea water pump
replace engine closed system water pump
rip out old engine driven refrigeration unit
replace tachometer
replace fuel gauge
replace clinometer
replace radio (VHF and AM/FM)
replace stereo speakers throughout
refurb air conditioning unit
rebuild manual bilge pump
install vented loop in automatic bilge pump
refurb pressure fresh water filtration system
reseal windows
build new interior cushions & fabric (I do a LOT of sewing)

[MC1]

It's possible to buy too quickly, but it's also possible to sell too quickly. Sounds like you have a case of buyer's remorse, which is not uncommon regardless of what level you jump in at. If you would have bought in at the higher end, maybe you'd be kicking yourself for not letting someone else take more of the depreciation hit.

Consider waiting another year or two so you obtain some ROI through use, all the while getting even smarter about the boat market / values - then you'll be in a much better position to "sell well", and then "buy well" the next time around.

If you're pretty sure you're going to sell soon, don't invest too much in the current boat - but it sounds like new lines are a given.

What ever you decide, don't worry - it's all good! Being out on the water enjoying the wind and waves is the real pay off!

[captainfun]

Mt Hope,

I have not owned a sailboat, but had a few powerboats, trucks, cars, and homes. My father-in-law once told me that "there is always a better deal." Everyone experiences buyer's remorse. Some more than others. I work hard for my money so I always want a good value. In life, everything you do is some sort of compromise. If you think you could have done better on your purchase, you are probably right. On the flip side, if you see a value and procrastinate, someone else gets the good deal. Use this purchase to learn to sail better, do inspections, fiberglass, clean, repair, etc. Learn from this. When purchasing your next boat you will be light years ahead in your knowledge of what to look for and ask about.

I am looking for my first boat and the more I find out, the more I realize I don't know. This forum is great for someone like me.

Jeff H, Do you care to expand on the list of "throw away trailer sailors?" I certainly don't want to wind up with something like that. If you don't want to answer publicly, PM me. Thanks.

Remember, Mt Hope, things always work out. Sometimes it just takes awhile.

[MarkCK]

If you really dont like the boat and it is pretty much wore out you are probably better off cutting your losses. You take the experience you gained and buy a better boat next time around.