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  #1001  
Old 05-18-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Hi Paulo,
the question of ballast ratio, AVS and stiffness is a complicated one and need careful calculations of among other things center of gravity. I do not intend to go into that. I have also traditionally been an advocate of high ballast ratios.

These new boats are bult on form stability as you know, as is a trimaran or a catamaran. They do not score high on ballast ratios either. ....
Anders,

The stiffness is not a difficult issue . You have only to have a stability curve and to know the boat sail area.

I think there is some confusion here regarding high ballast ratios. The reason some modern boats need less ballast ratio is because today the drafts are a bit bigger but mainly because today most performance boats have all the ballast in a bulb on a keel while some years back the ballast was distributed by all the keel, sometimes with a small bulb and that can make a big difference in righting moment.

The Ballast/Displacement is only comparable in what regards similar keels with similar weigh distribution and similar drafts.

What matters is the stability curve. If I remember correctly the one from the Azuree cruiser has an AVS around 110º and the one from the Opium 39 an AVS around 125º. That is a huge difference not only on the AVS but on the force that the boat is making to right itself up from a knock down position and also on the inverted stability.

Some types of new cruising boats have in common with multihulls the fact that they take most of its initial stability (needed to sail) from form stability but contrary to multi-hulls they take the ballast needed to recover from a knock-down or needed to recover from an inverted stability in a short period of time or at least they should have. All the racing boats that served as model to this new generation of boats have that safety potential. The ballast is there not only to increase the stiffness of the boat but mainly for the reserve stability (at high angles of heel).

If you want a boat without or with a bad a reserve stability you should have a multi-hull. At least you would not be tricked into thinking a boat has a safety potential he does not have. Being knocked out on a sailboat, specially for guys that like to push their boats and have a lot of sail out is a fairly common occurrence. It had happened to me already and I bet it had happened to a lot of sailors that like to go fast. It is not a big deal in a boat with a good reserve stability. In a boat with a poor reserve stability it can be a huge problem.

I remember than on the last Transat with Figaros a guy was knock down for a looong time (1 hour?). The Figaro 2 has a good reserve stability (AVS 125/130º) but the boat was caught by a wave and partially flooded and that have diminished its reserve stability. That sailor had a lot of work taking out the water of the boat (not an easy task with a lying boat) till it managed to get enough stability to bring it up again. What would have happened if that boat had a poor reserve stability?

The Elan 350, the Pogo and the RM are boats that rely on form stability for most of the stability needed to sail but that have the ballast and the draft needed for having a good reserve stability and a good AVS. I believe the Azuree fast cruiser has it too, but not the Azuree cruiser. I would not take offshore a boat that would have difficulty from recovering from a knock-down, or at least I would be very careful to sail that boat and that would take all the fun away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Shure, a knock down might be more fatal but as have been discussed in other threads, we spend 99% of our time in not knock down conditions so...

So basically, how much is the ballast ratio really worth for these kind of boats or should we look at other aspects, if we are takling about performance, not flipping around? I am not sure but I think we have to reason slightly different than for more normal single rudder narrower shaped performance cruisers.
I remember that on some test with the Elan the guys from the magazine were amazed because they have tested the boat with lot's and wind and no "wipe-outs". They were not caring because they knew that a knock-down would not have been a problem. Who wants a sportive cruising boat where a wipe-out can be a problem? It makes no sense. It is dangerous.

The ballast/draft should be the necessary to provide a decent AVS and a good reserve stability, no matter what. Otherwise what is the advantage of a monohull over a multihull? if you don't want to have a ballast capable of generate a good reserve stability why bother? Get a multihull .

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
I am also a little bit pussled that Opium can be so much lighter than all other similar boats with similar interiors. Opium is built very similar to my old Dehler if I compare hull cut outs, even if the Dehler is built without vacuum and basically Opium hull is built as Azuree (balsa instead of pvc sandwich). Pogo is understandable if you look inside but I have a hard time understanding why an Azuree should be 1800 kg (200more in the keel) heavier, you get a lot of interior material for 1800 kg.
The interior of the Opium is much lighter than the one from the Azuree and probably of much better quality. Infusion makes a lot of difference in the weight, there are lot's of different qualities in the infusion process.

I don't think the Wauquiez use a balsa core they say: "balsa and PVC foam sandwich with a vinylester core" and they use In the laminate multiaxial fiber glass (equivalent to multiple layers of unidirectional material). The quality of the vinylester resins or fiberglass can be very different and the same with the workmanship quality.

I know that they make the boat with that weight because they have made a big fuss about that when they have weighted the first boat (and got the correct weight). Quality and control is as important as the process to warranty high standards of quality and in that regard Wauquiez has a long tradition while Azuree has yet to prove itself as a high quality brand.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1002  
Old 05-18-2011
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Paulo; you're making sense. There are a lot of variables - poor quality cores can soak up a lot of resin etc... Unless you are a boat builder one has to put trust in the reputation of the builder. Difficult for new builders though.
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  #1003  
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Many tousands of boats are sold today with very low ballast ratios. Multihulls cruise the oceans with no ballast at all. Ovni - boats with bad AVS values are sailed by representatives for the blue water cruising scenery. 99% of the sailing is done in pristine conditions I guess.

Elan 350, as mentioned here, has only 26% ballast ratio and is praised all over the place. AVS I do not know. A normal hull shaped boat with single rudder and 26% ballast ratio, almost regardless of how deep down, would not make my short list. On the other hand, if main objective is to reduce risks, one should totally look the other way I think. The wide stern with a huge distance to fall if you loose grip I think is more of a risk than bad AVS.

Having 2 very flat boxes in the water with the same volume and width but different weights, one with a keel with 1850 kg on it, the other (heavier box) with 2050 kg sticking up towards the sky the same distance, I wonder if the difference in flipping "back" would be that different. As a novice I even speculate the heavier box should be floating deeper an should perhaps flip back quicker, or am I thinking wrong here? This could be a subjekt for many pages, or have perhaps already been?

Regarding the manufacturing of the Opium, I saw in the factory cut out examples of the hull. I also saw a boat with hull ready made but no interior. The core is really balsa, as they say themselves (hull core balsa, deck pvc sandwich). And yes, the laminate is very thin. As I said before, it was very similar to the blasa hull laminate set up of my old Dehler, buth thinner laminate. After having had another boat before, where a minor leak in the under water area caused water ingress in the whole hull through the canals in the divinycell sandwich and major costs to dry the hull, this is one of my major concerns if I buy an Opium, or any boat with a full balsa cored hull. Wet balsa I think is difficult to dry, wet divinycell does not get destroyed. In my mind it does not take that much of a log or small stone on the beach and an aft anchor that looses grip in the night and I basically have to lift the boat out of water immeaditly to make repairs. That is also a some sort of risk when sailing over oceans.

Regards,
Anders
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  #1004  
Old 05-18-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
There are several different weight numbers floating around for both the Opium and the Azuree. As usual, a boat starts is career as very light weight but when reality catches up the numbers get adjusted. I have seen the numbers for the Opium going up from 4800 to 5000 and now 5600 kg. Similar for the Azuree. Especially the difference between the Azuree fast Cruiser and Cruiser is interesting to observe. It has been getting smaller and smaller and by now it is only 200 kg. I assume the mast is not incuded in these calculations since it is a carbon mast on the Fast Cruiser and an aluminium on the Cruiser.

The Azuree Fast Cruiser is the one built with 50% carbon in the cloth, the Cruiser has only carbon in some areas so basically the weight difference should be bigger.
Hei Anders,

As I have explained the difference between the Azuree cruiser and fast cruiser is not a lot bigger because they have chosen not to add the ballast needed to compensate the almost half a meter of difference in draft between the two versions. If they had chosen to give the same stability to both boats (as it is usual) the difference would be a lot bigger (more than 500kg).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post

But still, as you said, the difference is strange. Then, if one starts looking at other boats hull weight, like the RM1200 5100 kg, Dufour 40E etc 5000 kg hull, Grand Soleil 40 5100 kg, Bavaria 40 6100 kg, Beneteau Sense 43 7500 kg it is pretty clear that the Azuree is not light but not heavey neither, it is the Opium that is outstanding for some reason. If, as Opium says, vacuum, sandwich and vinylester is the key, then Azuree should be lighter. And as a planing hull it really should be lighter I agree. ..
As I have said even with similar techniques and "apparently" equal materials more expensive performance boats are normally lighter (and the Azuree is an inexpensive boat):

Weights of hulls of quality performance boats without ballast (boats with good quality interiors):

Luffe 4004 - 3 600Kg .... J 122 - 4 220kg ....FinnFyer 42 - 4 100kg


Sly 42 - 4050kg......X38p - 3650kg

Regards

Paulo
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  #1005  
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Azuree pictures from factory Visita Stabilimento Sirena Marine Azuree | Facebook
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  #1006  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aac View Post
Paulo; you're making sense. There are a lot of variables - poor quality cores can soak up a lot of resin etc... Unless you are a boat builder one has to put trust in the reputation of the builder. Difficult for new builders though.
I am much more relieved...I mean regarding to making sense

By the way, that picture of a Centurion 40 with a bent keel was taken by me, in the Rias Bajas. That boat really impressed me. Of course the keel was lead and only that explains that the hull had taken so well such a big blow. The keel deformed itself absorbing part of the blow, but I can tell you that there was not the minimum fissure between the keel and the hull...nothing, the boat looked like new

Regards

Paulo
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  #1007  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Luffe 4004 - 3 600Kg .... J 122 - 4 220kg .... FinnFyer 42 - 4 100kg ..... Sly 42 - 4050kg .... X38p - 3650kg
Azuree 40FC - 5100 kg. From my perspective plus 1000 kg could be justified, specially then FinnFlyer or Sly aprox. 3 times more expensive, full carbon or have "Cupboards, doors, tables, floorboards, bulkheads, walls are also Advanced Composite Constructions, i.e. sandwich GRP laminates with Divinycell core and covered by vacuum bagged thin Teak or Oak." Plus I guess there are some mistakes, just checked and:

Sly 42
Dispacement 6.900 kg
Ballast 2.520 kg
4380kg

FinnFlyer 42
Dispacement 6.800 kg
Ballast 2900 kg
3900kg

Last edited by G1000; 05-18-2011 at 06:09 PM.
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  #1008  
Old 05-18-2011
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G1000, I agree.

What puzzles me is that two boats made from the same material for the hull (ok, balsa-sandwich different), both using vacuum and the heavier even 50% carbon in the cloth, can end up with such a big difference in weight. And even if Opium is using sandwich for the interior panels, they have no carbon in it at all. So can the interior panels really be that much more heavy or bigger in numbers in Azuree. Or are they bad in getting the vinylester out of the laminate despite vacuum? Or do they use more glasfiber? But then on the other hand, I get a stronger boat.

They (Azuree, Sirena Marine) do also build Azimuth motor yachts. Weight not so important perhaps but they are not new to boat building of rather high end boats. According to Yachting World they also make composite work for the military. Perhaps bullet proof is their motto?

Regards,
Anders
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  #1009  
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Azuree 40FC displacement is a puzzle. In all magazines and first catalog - 6700kg (7600kg Cruiser), but latter changed to 7100kg (7300kg). Plus prices are also increased. I just wonder why. Or maybe it's common to test very light prototype to get better reviews?

At the end of the day you never know the truth First is data value from the manufacturer and the second is the measured one in the tests:

Bavaria 36 5500 / 6200kg
Bavaria 37 6900 / 6945kg
Dehler 36 6000 / 6800kg
First 36.7 5870 / 6085kg
Elan 37 5900 / 7087kg
Finngulf 37 6000 / 6455kg
X-37 6400 / 6953kg
Salona 37 6200 / 6535kg
Arcona 37 6200 / 6520kg
Swedestar 6200 / 6620kg
Delphia 37 5850 / 6310kg
Oceanis 6515 / 6535kg
Sun Odyssey 37 6100 / 6853kg
Linjett 37 6700 / 6845kg
Hanse 370 7200 / 8150kg
Hanse375 7200 / 7763kg
Hanse 371 7200 / 7800kg

myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum: Hanse 371 weighted

Last edited by G1000; 05-18-2011 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 05-18-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Many tousands of boats are sold today with very low ballast ratios. Multihulls cruise the oceans with no ballast at all. Ovni - boats with bad AVS values are sailed by representatives for the blue water cruising scenery. 99% of the sailing is done in pristine conditions I guess.
Anders, I am not used to be on the conservative side of the palisade but you are talking of different things. A multihull has 3 or 4 times more stability than a similar sized monohull and uses that factor to compensate the absence of safety stability and it is true that OVNI has bad AVS but they compensate that with the ability to glide when caught by a breaking wave. They don't trip on their keels and that compensates the relatively low AVS. But the OVNI AVS is in the same area of the AVS I saw on the Azuree cruiser Stability curve and the Azuree has a keel to trip on, even if it is not a large one .

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Elan 350, as mentioned here, has only 26% ballast ratio and is praised all over the place. AVS I do not know. A normal hull shaped boat with single rudder and 26% ballast ratio, almost regardless of how deep down, would not make my short list. On the other hand, if main objective is to reduce risks, one should totally look the other way I think. The wide stern with a huge distance to fall if you loose grip I think is more of a risk than bad AVS.
I have saw the stability curve of the Elan 350 and its alright (AVS around 120º). You know one of the problems with the weight of a boat is that technically speaking there are a lot of weights in a boat: There are light weight, minimum sailing condition weight, medium weight and Max load weight.

They don't always say the type of weight they are talking about. In the Azuree and Opium they say that it is light weight, but on the Elan 350 they don't say of what weight they are talking about. It can be minimum sailing weight and that will increase that B/D by a bit. If you see the technical specification under documentation (on Elan site) you will see that the weight given is approximatively 5000kg.

But you have a point, the Azuree 40 cruiser stability are not probably as bad as I have painted it (even if it has a relatively bad AVS) but it is also true that the Azuree fast cruiser has a better AVS, is a more stiff boat than the Azuree cruiser and that the Opium 39 has stiffness and stability characteristics closer (or better) than the Fast cruiser. The Opium should be compared with the Fast cruiser, not with the Azuree cruiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Regarding the manufacturing of the Opium, I saw in the factory cut out examples of the hull. I also saw a boat with hull ready made but no interior. The core is really balsa, as they say themselves (hull core balsa, deck pvc sandwich). And yes, the laminate is very thin. As I said before, it was very similar to the blasa hull laminate set up of my old Dehler, buth thinner laminate. After having had another boat before, where a minor leak in the under water area caused water ingress in the whole hull through the canals in the divinycell sandwich and major costs to dry the hull, this is one of my major concerns if I buy an Opium, or any boat with a full balsa cored hull. Wet balsa I think is difficult to dry, wet divinycell does not get destroyed. In my mind it does not take that much of a log or small stone on the beach and an aft anchor that looses grip in the night and I basically have to lift the boat out of water immeaditly to make repairs. That is also a some sort of risk when sailing over oceans.
Here I agree with you, even if a thinner laminate could have stronger mechanical characteristics than a much thick laminate. It has to do with the impregnation of the resin under vacuum, its homogeneity and with the technique and kind of fiberglass and they use a multiaxial top laminate.

I would prefer a boat built with a plastic core instead of balsa. As you know Dehler use the system and they still do the standard new Dehler 41 with a balsa core even if they use plastic for the more "racing" version. I have asked the guy from Dehler why they still used balsa has core instead of plastic. The guy said they had not a single problem with their balsa cored hulls. I don't know if that is true or not but the Dehler has a very good reputation in what concerns the integrity of hulls, even in older boats.

But you should know that better than me. Do you know of any Dehler with problems in the balsa core?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-18-2011 at 06:38 PM.
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