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  #1001  
Old 05-18-2011
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Paulo; you're making sense. There are a lot of variables - poor quality cores can soak up a lot of resin etc... Unless you are a boat builder one has to put trust in the reputation of the builder. Difficult for new builders though.
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  #1002  
Old 05-18-2011
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Many tousands of boats are sold today with very low ballast ratios. Multihulls cruise the oceans with no ballast at all. Ovni - boats with bad AVS values are sailed by representatives for the blue water cruising scenery. 99% of the sailing is done in pristine conditions I guess.

Elan 350, as mentioned here, has only 26% ballast ratio and is praised all over the place. AVS I do not know. A normal hull shaped boat with single rudder and 26% ballast ratio, almost regardless of how deep down, would not make my short list. On the other hand, if main objective is to reduce risks, one should totally look the other way I think. The wide stern with a huge distance to fall if you loose grip I think is more of a risk than bad AVS.

Having 2 very flat boxes in the water with the same volume and width but different weights, one with a keel with 1850 kg on it, the other (heavier box) with 2050 kg sticking up towards the sky the same distance, I wonder if the difference in flipping "back" would be that different. As a novice I even speculate the heavier box should be floating deeper an should perhaps flip back quicker, or am I thinking wrong here? This could be a subjekt for many pages, or have perhaps already been?

Regarding the manufacturing of the Opium, I saw in the factory cut out examples of the hull. I also saw a boat with hull ready made but no interior. The core is really balsa, as they say themselves (hull core balsa, deck pvc sandwich). And yes, the laminate is very thin. As I said before, it was very similar to the blasa hull laminate set up of my old Dehler, buth thinner laminate. After having had another boat before, where a minor leak in the under water area caused water ingress in the whole hull through the canals in the divinycell sandwich and major costs to dry the hull, this is one of my major concerns if I buy an Opium, or any boat with a full balsa cored hull. Wet balsa I think is difficult to dry, wet divinycell does not get destroyed. In my mind it does not take that much of a log or small stone on the beach and an aft anchor that looses grip in the night and I basically have to lift the boat out of water immeaditly to make repairs. That is also a some sort of risk when sailing over oceans.

Regards,
Anders
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  #1003  
Old 05-18-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
There are several different weight numbers floating around for both the Opium and the Azuree. As usual, a boat starts is career as very light weight but when reality catches up the numbers get adjusted. I have seen the numbers for the Opium going up from 4800 to 5000 and now 5600 kg. Similar for the Azuree. Especially the difference between the Azuree fast Cruiser and Cruiser is interesting to observe. It has been getting smaller and smaller and by now it is only 200 kg. I assume the mast is not incuded in these calculations since it is a carbon mast on the Fast Cruiser and an aluminium on the Cruiser.

The Azuree Fast Cruiser is the one built with 50% carbon in the cloth, the Cruiser has only carbon in some areas so basically the weight difference should be bigger.
Hei Anders,

As I have explained the difference between the Azuree cruiser and fast cruiser is not a lot bigger because they have chosen not to add the ballast needed to compensate the almost half a meter of difference in draft between the two versions. If they had chosen to give the same stability to both boats (as it is usual) the difference would be a lot bigger (more than 500kg).

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post

But still, as you said, the difference is strange. Then, if one starts looking at other boats hull weight, like the RM1200 5100 kg, Dufour 40E etc 5000 kg hull, Grand Soleil 40 5100 kg, Bavaria 40 6100 kg, Beneteau Sense 43 7500 kg it is pretty clear that the Azuree is not light but not heavey neither, it is the Opium that is outstanding for some reason. If, as Opium says, vacuum, sandwich and vinylester is the key, then Azuree should be lighter. And as a planing hull it really should be lighter I agree. ..
As I have said even with similar techniques and "apparently" equal materials more expensive performance boats are normally lighter (and the Azuree is an inexpensive boat):

Weights of hulls of quality performance boats without ballast (boats with good quality interiors):

Luffe 4004 - 3 600Kg .... J 122 - 4 220kg ....FinnFyer 42 - 4 100kg


Sly 42 - 4050kg......X38p - 3650kg

Regards

Paulo
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  #1004  
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Azuree pictures from factory Visita Stabilimento Sirena Marine Azuree | Facebook
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  #1005  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aac View Post
Paulo; you're making sense. There are a lot of variables - poor quality cores can soak up a lot of resin etc... Unless you are a boat builder one has to put trust in the reputation of the builder. Difficult for new builders though.
I am much more relieved...I mean regarding to making sense

By the way, that picture of a Centurion 40 with a bent keel was taken by me, in the Rias Bajas. That boat really impressed me. Of course the keel was lead and only that explains that the hull had taken so well such a big blow. The keel deformed itself absorbing part of the blow, but I can tell you that there was not the minimum fissure between the keel and the hull...nothing, the boat looked like new

Regards

Paulo
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  #1006  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Luffe 4004 - 3 600Kg .... J 122 - 4 220kg .... FinnFyer 42 - 4 100kg ..... Sly 42 - 4050kg .... X38p - 3650kg
Azuree 40FC - 5100 kg. From my perspective plus 1000 kg could be justified, specially then FinnFlyer or Sly aprox. 3 times more expensive, full carbon or have "Cupboards, doors, tables, floorboards, bulkheads, walls are also Advanced Composite Constructions, i.e. sandwich GRP laminates with Divinycell core and covered by vacuum bagged thin Teak or Oak." Plus I guess there are some mistakes, just checked and:

Sly 42
Dispacement 6.900 kg
Ballast 2.520 kg
4380kg

FinnFlyer 42
Dispacement 6.800 kg
Ballast 2900 kg
3900kg

Last edited by G1000; 05-18-2011 at 06:09 PM.
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  #1007  
Old 05-18-2011
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G1000, I agree.

What puzzles me is that two boats made from the same material for the hull (ok, balsa-sandwich different), both using vacuum and the heavier even 50% carbon in the cloth, can end up with such a big difference in weight. And even if Opium is using sandwich for the interior panels, they have no carbon in it at all. So can the interior panels really be that much more heavy or bigger in numbers in Azuree. Or are they bad in getting the vinylester out of the laminate despite vacuum? Or do they use more glasfiber? But then on the other hand, I get a stronger boat.

They (Azuree, Sirena Marine) do also build Azimuth motor yachts. Weight not so important perhaps but they are not new to boat building of rather high end boats. According to Yachting World they also make composite work for the military. Perhaps bullet proof is their motto?

Regards,
Anders
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  #1008  
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Azuree 40FC displacement is a puzzle. In all magazines and first catalog - 6700kg (7600kg Cruiser), but latter changed to 7100kg (7300kg). Plus prices are also increased. I just wonder why. Or maybe it's common to test very light prototype to get better reviews?

At the end of the day you never know the truth First is data value from the manufacturer and the second is the measured one in the tests:

Bavaria 36 5500 / 6200kg
Bavaria 37 6900 / 6945kg
Dehler 36 6000 / 6800kg
First 36.7 5870 / 6085kg
Elan 37 5900 / 7087kg
Finngulf 37 6000 / 6455kg
X-37 6400 / 6953kg
Salona 37 6200 / 6535kg
Arcona 37 6200 / 6520kg
Swedestar 6200 / 6620kg
Delphia 37 5850 / 6310kg
Oceanis 6515 / 6535kg
Sun Odyssey 37 6100 / 6853kg
Linjett 37 6700 / 6845kg
Hanse 370 7200 / 8150kg
Hanse375 7200 / 7763kg
Hanse 371 7200 / 7800kg

myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum: Hanse 371 weighted

Last edited by G1000; 05-18-2011 at 06:54 PM.
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  #1009  
Old 05-18-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Many tousands of boats are sold today with very low ballast ratios. Multihulls cruise the oceans with no ballast at all. Ovni - boats with bad AVS values are sailed by representatives for the blue water cruising scenery. 99% of the sailing is done in pristine conditions I guess.
Anders, I am not used to be on the conservative side of the palisade but you are talking of different things. A multihull has 3 or 4 times more stability than a similar sized monohull and uses that factor to compensate the absence of safety stability and it is true that OVNI has bad AVS but they compensate that with the ability to glide when caught by a breaking wave. They don't trip on their keels and that compensates the relatively low AVS. But the OVNI AVS is in the same area of the AVS I saw on the Azuree cruiser Stability curve and the Azuree has a keel to trip on, even if it is not a large one .

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Elan 350, as mentioned here, has only 26% ballast ratio and is praised all over the place. AVS I do not know. A normal hull shaped boat with single rudder and 26% ballast ratio, almost regardless of how deep down, would not make my short list. On the other hand, if main objective is to reduce risks, one should totally look the other way I think. The wide stern with a huge distance to fall if you loose grip I think is more of a risk than bad AVS.
I have saw the stability curve of the Elan 350 and its alright (AVS around 120ļ). You know one of the problems with the weight of a boat is that technically speaking there are a lot of weights in a boat: There are light weight, minimum sailing condition weight, medium weight and Max load weight.

They don't always say the type of weight they are talking about. In the Azuree and Opium they say that it is light weight, but on the Elan 350 they don't say of what weight they are talking about. It can be minimum sailing weight and that will increase that B/D by a bit. If you see the technical specification under documentation (on Elan site) you will see that the weight given is approximatively 5000kg.

But you have a point, the Azuree 40 cruiser stability are not probably as bad as I have painted it (even if it has a relatively bad AVS) but it is also true that the Azuree fast cruiser has a better AVS, is a more stiff boat than the Azuree cruiser and that the Opium 39 has stiffness and stability characteristics closer (or better) than the Fast cruiser. The Opium should be compared with the Fast cruiser, not with the Azuree cruiser.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Regarding the manufacturing of the Opium, I saw in the factory cut out examples of the hull. I also saw a boat with hull ready made but no interior. The core is really balsa, as they say themselves (hull core balsa, deck pvc sandwich). And yes, the laminate is very thin. As I said before, it was very similar to the blasa hull laminate set up of my old Dehler, buth thinner laminate. After having had another boat before, where a minor leak in the under water area caused water ingress in the whole hull through the canals in the divinycell sandwich and major costs to dry the hull, this is one of my major concerns if I buy an Opium, or any boat with a full balsa cored hull. Wet balsa I think is difficult to dry, wet divinycell does not get destroyed. In my mind it does not take that much of a log or small stone on the beach and an aft anchor that looses grip in the night and I basically have to lift the boat out of water immeaditly to make repairs. That is also a some sort of risk when sailing over oceans.
Here I agree with you, even if a thinner laminate could have stronger mechanical characteristics than a much thick laminate. It has to do with the impregnation of the resin under vacuum, its homogeneity and with the technique and kind of fiberglass and they use a multiaxial top laminate.

I would prefer a boat built with a plastic core instead of balsa. As you know Dehler use the system and they still do the standard new Dehler 41 with a balsa core even if they use plastic for the more "racing" version. I have asked the guy from Dehler why they still used balsa has core instead of plastic. The guy said they had not a single problem with their balsa cored hulls. I don't know if that is true or not but the Dehler has a very good reputation in what concerns the integrity of hulls, even in older boats.

But you should know that better than me. Do you know of any Dehler with problems in the balsa core?

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-18-2011 at 06:38 PM.
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  #1010  
Old 05-18-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
Azuree 40FC - 5100 kg. From my perspective plus 1000 kg could be justified, specially then FinnFlyer or Sly aprox. 3 times more expensive, full carbon or have "Cupboards, doors, tables, floorboards, bulkheads, walls are also Advanced Composite Constructions, i.e. sandwich GRP laminates with Divinycell core and covered by vacuum bagged thin Teak or Oak."
I have already said that more expensive boats can be lighter because they use better materials and a more careful building. The Azuree cruiser does not enter on that category (it is an inexpensive boat for a fast boat). Besides those lighter boats don't cost 3 times more than the fast cruiser. They are bigger boats and they are not made of carbon even if some, like the fast cruiser uses some carbon mixed with less exotic fibers and some have no carbon at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post

Plus I guess there are some mistakes, just checked and:

Sly 42
Dispacement 6.900 kg
Ballast 2.520 kg
4380kg

FinnFlyer 42
Dispacement 6.800 kg
Ballast 2900 kg
3900kg

That's a bit rude isn't it?

I have already explained that there are not a single weight of a boat and boats have several drafts with different ballasts and weights. Probably the differences come from that, or do you think I had not checked the weights?

On the Finn Flyer site you have as weight for the 42: 7000 kg and 6800kg that correspond to two different keels with two different drafts, one with 2700kg other with 2900kg. For having the hull weight I have taken from the lighter boat the weight of th lighter keel. It gives 4100kg, as previously posted, regarding the Sly 42 I have used this file:



It gives the values I have posted. Probably the other values that you can find on the site refers to the smaller keel and that's why the ballast and the weight are bigger.

Regarding this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
....

At the end of the day you never know the truth First is data value from the manufacturer and the second is the measured one in the tests:

Bavaria 36 5500 / 6200kg
Bavaria 37 6900 / 6945kg
Dehler 36 6000 / 6800kg
First 36.7 5870 / 6085kg
Elan 37 5900 / 7087kg
Finngulf 37 6000 / 6455kg
X-37 6400 / 6953kg
Salona 37 6200 / 6535kg
Arcona 37 6200 / 6520kg
Swedestar 6200 / 6620kg
Delphia 37 5850 / 6310kg
Oceanis 6515 / 6535kg
Sun Odyssey 37 6100 / 6853kg
Linjett 37 6700 / 6845kg
Hanse 370 7200 / 8150kg
Hanse375 7200 / 7763kg
Hanse 371 7200 / 7800kg

myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum: Hanse 371 weighted
I have already said that:

"one of the problems with the weight of a boat is that technically speaking there are a lot of weights in a boat: There are light weight, minimum sailing condition weight, medium weight and Max load weight".

Obviously most of the weights on the left column are empty weights and the values on the right column can go from minimum sailing condition to any weight near medium load. You will have water and fuel on the tanks and you will have the weight of all extra options you have put in the boat. I don't find anything strange about it.

Regarding the weight of the boats, fast boats are light boats and there is a lot of light boats around. As you like to check it out you can check the weight of these hulls, most or all without exotic materials and you will find they are all light:

A40; Zou 40.2; Malango 9.99; Fox 10.20; Azimuth 40; Pacer 376; JPK 110; Loft 40; Pogo 10.50; Pogo 12.50.

You will find also that they are a bit more expensive than more heavy boats. For doing them light you have to do them better And some are used to race and that means that they have to be stronger than the average cruising boat.

And by the way, if you put doors and a more conventional interior on a Pogo you will probably will not add 600kg to the boat and that would still make it 1000kg lighter than the Azuree fast cruiser and the Pogo uses no exotic materials on his boats. How can they do that? Well, they have 20 years of experience in building strong and light race boats and use that knowledge to build light and strong cruising boats.

Bottom point, I have nothing against the Azuree, a boat that I like, specially in the Fast cruising version but it seems to me that doubting that other brands, with more experience in building light boats, cannot build significantly lighter boats than the Azuree, makes no sense to me. They do and you have just to look to find them

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-18-2011 at 08:30 PM.
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