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  #1011  
Old 05-18-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
Azuree 40FC - 5100 kg. From my perspective plus 1000 kg could be justified, specially then FinnFlyer or Sly aprox. 3 times more expensive, full carbon or have "Cupboards, doors, tables, floorboards, bulkheads, walls are also Advanced Composite Constructions, i.e. sandwich GRP laminates with Divinycell core and covered by vacuum bagged thin Teak or Oak."
I have already said that more expensive boats can be lighter because they use better materials and a more careful building. The Azuree cruiser does not enter on that category (it is an inexpensive boat for a fast boat). Besides those lighter boats don't cost 3 times more than the fast cruiser. They are bigger boats and they are not made of carbon even if some, like the fast cruiser uses some carbon mixed with less exotic fibers and some have no carbon at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post

Plus I guess there are some mistakes, just checked and:

Sly 42
Dispacement 6.900 kg
Ballast 2.520 kg
4380kg

FinnFlyer 42
Dispacement 6.800 kg
Ballast 2900 kg
3900kg

That's a bit rude isn't it?

I have already explained that there are not a single weight of a boat and boats have several drafts with different ballasts and weights. Probably the differences come from that, or do you think I had not checked the weights?

On the Finn Flyer site you have as weight for the 42: 7000 kg and 6800kg that correspond to two different keels with two different drafts, one with 2700kg other with 2900kg. For having the hull weight I have taken from the lighter boat the weight of th lighter keel. It gives 4100kg, as previously posted, regarding the Sly 42 I have used this file:



It gives the values I have posted. Probably the other values that you can find on the site refers to the smaller keel and that's why the ballast and the weight are bigger.

Regarding this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
....

At the end of the day you never know the truth First is data value from the manufacturer and the second is the measured one in the tests:

Bavaria 36 5500 / 6200kg
Bavaria 37 6900 / 6945kg
Dehler 36 6000 / 6800kg
First 36.7 5870 / 6085kg
Elan 37 5900 / 7087kg
Finngulf 37 6000 / 6455kg
X-37 6400 / 6953kg
Salona 37 6200 / 6535kg
Arcona 37 6200 / 6520kg
Swedestar 6200 / 6620kg
Delphia 37 5850 / 6310kg
Oceanis 6515 / 6535kg
Sun Odyssey 37 6100 / 6853kg
Linjett 37 6700 / 6845kg
Hanse 370 7200 / 8150kg
Hanse375 7200 / 7763kg
Hanse 371 7200 / 7800kg

myHanse - Hanse Yachts Owners Forum: Hanse 371 weighted
I have already said that:

"one of the problems with the weight of a boat is that technically speaking there are a lot of weights in a boat: There are light weight, minimum sailing condition weight, medium weight and Max load weight".

Obviously most of the weights on the left column are empty weights and the values on the right column can go from minimum sailing condition to any weight near medium load. You will have water and fuel on the tanks and you will have the weight of all extra options you have put in the boat. I don't find anything strange about it.

Regarding the weight of the boats, fast boats are light boats and there is a lot of light boats around. As you like to check it out you can check the weight of these hulls, most or all without exotic materials and you will find they are all light:

A40; Zou 40.2; Malango 9.99; Fox 10.20; Azimuth 40; Pacer 376; JPK 110; Loft 40; Pogo 10.50; Pogo 12.50.

You will find also that they are a bit more expensive than more heavy boats. For doing them light you have to do them better And some are used to race and that means that they have to be stronger than the average cruising boat.

And by the way, if you put doors and a more conventional interior on a Pogo you will probably will not add 600kg to the boat and that would still make it 1000kg lighter than the Azuree fast cruiser and the Pogo uses no exotic materials on his boats. How can they do that? Well, they have 20 years of experience in building strong and light race boats and use that knowledge to build light and strong cruising boats.

Bottom point, I have nothing against the Azuree, a boat that I like, specially in the Fast cruising version but it seems to me that doubting that other brands, with more experience in building light boats, cannot build significantly lighter boats than the Azuree, makes no sense to me. They do and you have just to look to find them

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-18-2011 at 09:30 PM.
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  #1012  
Old 05-19-2011
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Still, having built over 70 windsurfing boards myself I find it very strange to end up with these differences in weight if using the same material and technology. And according to Yachting World Azuree also have sandwich in the interior. Perhaps we really need to include strength in our evaluations because it is no rocket sience involved here.

As said before, weights do tend to go up from early calculations and test boats, when brochures are made, I wonder why. Strange though that, as said before, Azuree FC goes from 6700 to 7100 and Cruiser from 7600 to 7300 kg.

Anyway, Yahting World and Yacht both commented on the weight and where both impressed by sailing characteristics. What is disturbing me is that all tests of the Azuree 40 is with the fast cruiser.

Best regards,
Anders
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  #1013  
Old 05-19-2011
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This is Azurees comment in the matter:

About the ballast ratio, as you would have already found out, the hull shape of Azuree, and in general this type of hulls, enables a lower ballast ratio with compared to traditional hull designs.

Between our Cruiser and Fast Cruiser, the biggest difference is the longer (and carbon) mast and the much bigger sail plan of the FC. The sail plan for FC offers wider sail areas and comes with a fat head main sail, which puts more force to the upper side of the sails. Consequently, this requires more righting moment, hence the deeper keel. On the other hand, both our versions offer a performance cruiser type sailing. One Azuree 40 Cruiser has recently won La Ruta de la Sal race from Barcelona to Ibiza with our 40' Cruiser reaching speeds of 21 knots with a very comfortable feeling. I can put you in touch with the Spanish skipper of that boat( a well-kown regattist in Spain), if you would like.

When it comes to comparing Opium 39 and Azuree 40 in terms of weight, firstly Opium is a much smaller boat. Comparing LWLs, it is 1 meters shorter than Azuree. But more importantly, standard Opium 39 comes with 2 cabins and 1 head, so it offers much less interiors in terms of layout. Also, Azuree has more details in the interior.
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  #1014  
Old 05-19-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
..
As said before, weights do tend to go up from early calculations and test boats, when brochures are made, I wonder why. ..
Once a builder have commented that with me. When a boat is designed by an Architect they make weight calculations based on the optimal use of materials.

Optimizing materials is an expensive process that is mostly done in what regards racing were the cost is not that important. They are going to make an one off and the boat is going to be expensive anyway. When you want to produce a boat cost becomes a major issue and maximizing materials to the limit is not an absolute priority anymore. Yes they will try to maximize materials if it is not too expensive taking into consideration production costs.

That's why on production boats the weight is rarely the one specified by the designer and why more expensive boats can be lighter even using the same material: Costs considerations on production regarding difficult execution and control of quality to obtain the strength/weight required by the designer. More expensive boats have a bigger margin in what concerns that cost consideration.

I remember that some years ago Bavaria had a very fast line of boats called Match. They had problems with the keels of the 42 and abandoned the project. It turned out that for producing a boat were the materials are optimized you have to have a quality control that is hard to get on a big production line or impossible without a substantial increase in costs. Optimizing materials gives no place for any mistake in the production.

I remember also, and I was impressed by it, that on the Salona shipyard they showed to me that they use transparent gelcoat bellow the water line on the lighter boats (vacuum infused boats) to be sure that there are no minor flaws on the laminate. Quality control is a big issue when you maximize materials because a mistake or a defect can have drastic consequences and the Salonas are not extremely light, the 41 weights between 7200 and 6600kg (vacuum infused boat with lighter material interior) and that without keel will be 4800 to 4200Kg, values that on the lighter version are not as good as the ones from Opium but better than the ones from Azuree even on the fast version.

Here you can see, on the right side of the image, that bottom clear gel-coat that permits to see all the laminate behind:



Of course we have to take into consideration that the Azuree is a more beamy boat and that therefore the hull will weight more but also that the Salona has an interior stainless steel frame that redistributes all keel and shrouds efforts by the hull. I don't know if the weigh of the frame compensates what they can win on the hull weight, but that will give a bigger safety margin on the more critical points of a light sailboat: Keel and shrouds attachments to the hull.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-19-2011 at 09:19 AM.
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  #1015  
Old 05-19-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
This is Azurees comment in the matter:

About the ballast ratio, as you would have already found out, the hull shape of Azuree, and in general this type of hulls, enables a lower ballast ratio with compared to traditional hull designs.

Between our Cruiser and Fast Cruiser, the biggest difference is the longer (and carbon) mast and the much bigger sail plan of the FC. The sail plan for FC offers wider sail areas and comes with a fat head main sail, which puts more force to the upper side of the sails. Consequently, this requires more righting moment, hence the deeper keel. On the other hand, both our versions offer a performance cruiser type sailing. One Azuree 40 Cruiser has recently won La Ruta de la Sal race from Barcelona to Ibiza with our 40' Cruiser reaching speeds of 21 knots with a very comfortable feeling. I can put you in touch with the Spanish skipper of that boat( a well-kown regattist in Spain), if you would like.

When it comes to comparing Opium 39 and Azuree 40 in terms of weight, firstly Opium is a much smaller boat. Comparing LWLs, it is 1 meters shorter than Azuree. But more importantly, standard Opium 39 comes with 2 cabins and 1 head, so it offers much less interiors in terms of layout. Also, Azuree has more details in the interior.
Yes they basically confirm what I have said but regarding this: "The sail plan for FC offers wider sail areas and comes with a fat head main sail, which puts more force to the upper side of the sails. Consequently, this requires more righting moment, hence the deeper keel."

A deeper keel is not the only way of getting the needed stability to carry more sail. They can get the same stability with a shorter draft with more ballast. Many shipyards use this method to offer the same stability with different drafts. They have chose not to do so. That extra stability is not only important to carry more sail but to increase the AVS and the safety stability.

What I have said is that lesser stability on the cruising boat standard version while enough to carry its sail is not enough to offer a good reserve safety stability and a good AVS. The Fast cruising version is not only faster, but also safer offering a much better AVS and a much better reserve safety stability. That was what I was calling your attention too. It is up to you to decide if what offers the cruising version is good enough for you and the type of sailing you want to do. I was also pointing out that the Opium 39 offers the same kind of reserve stability and AVS that is offered by the Fast cruiser and therefore much better than what is offered by the standard Azuree cruiser.

Regarding that race "La ruta del Sal", the results are impressive on real time even if the weather conditions were ideal for a downwind maximized boat. Pity there was not there other similar types of boats to compare, but let me tell you that their publicity is misleading. They talk about an Azuree cruising sailboat and that boat is certainly an Azuree fast cruising boat and probably prepared for racing. A standard Azuree cruising boat would not be able to reach 21K downwind and could not have done that performance

RESULTADOS « Ruta de la Sal

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-19-2011 at 08:13 AM.
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  #1016  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
They talk about an Azuree cruising sailboat and that boat is certainly an Azuree fast cruising boat and probably prepared for racing. A standard Azuree cruising boat would not be able to reach 21K downwind and could not have done that performance
It was indeed Cruiser... at least no carbon mast... no running backstay... DSC_4083 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!

Last edited by G1000; 05-19-2011 at 08:43 AM.
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  #1017  
Old 05-19-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
It was indeed Cruiser... at least no carbon mast... no running backstay... DSC_4083 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
Well, it seems that you are right . I would not have believed it if I had not seen that image. Really impressive performance.


....But looking again some doubts remain. If you go to the Azuree site you are going to see that there are lot's of photos of fast cruisers with aluminum mast and you will see also that backstay seems not to be the standard one but seems yo have a hydraulic regulation. Hummm I still consider highly improbable that this is a standard cruiser with a 2.16m keel.

Azuree

This is a 2.16 draft keel?:



Well, improbable, but it really seems that is a 2.16 draft keel



Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-19-2011 at 10:02 AM.
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  #1018  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...But looking again some doubts remain. If you go to the Azuree site you are going to see that there are lot's of photos of fast cruisers with aluminum mast and you will see also that backstay seems not to be the standard one but seems yo have a hydraulic regulation. Hummm I still consider highly improbable that this is a standard cruiser with a 2.16m keel.
Exterior gallery is the same for both versions... Cruiser has fixed backstay
http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/foto...smekan-26b.jpg or http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/foto...smekan-11b.jpg

Upgraded Cruiser with performance alu mast and keel should have running backstays as Fast Cruiser. Varo Azuree 40 - Azuree 40 launch - 13 marzo 2011 | Facebook

And Fast Cruiser has carbon mast. Here it looks like with "white" carbon mast http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/foto...smekan-22b.jpg and here black one Pennetti Cup 2011

Last edited by G1000; 05-19-2011 at 10:08 AM.
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  #1019  
Old 05-19-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Well, it seems that you are right . I would not have believed it if I had not seen that image. Really impressive performance.


....But looking again some doubts remain. If you go to the Azuree site you are going to see that there are lot's of photos of fast cruisers with aluminum mast and you will see also that backstay seems not to be the standard one but seems yo have a hydraulic regulation. Hummm I still consider highly improbable that this is a standard cruiser with a 2.16m keel.

Azuree

This is a 2.16 draft keel?:



Regards

Paulo
I have had a lot of communication with their sale manager the last days and he is giving a very good and knowledgable impression. Standard on the Cruiser is a partly split backstay, on the fast cruiser the backstay is split to the top to give space for the fat head sail, and it has two jammers besides the weels to take the back stay lines.

Yes, the keel on the picture is the 2,16, you see it both from overall height and the slightly forward rake.

In regards of manufacturing I understand what you say. At the same time the Sirena factory set up is getting alot of attention and praise and for instance alla moulded parts are individually marked for quality control follow ups.

By the way, when I was at Wauquiez they where laminating reinforcements for the keel into hulls already having the interior in place. Seems odd..

Regards,
Anders
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  #1020  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
This is a 2.16 draft keel?:
Yes this is draft one...

>Cruiser 2.16m Azuree's Photos - Visita Stabilimento Sirena Marine Azuree | Facebook
>Fast Cruiser 2.60m Azuree's Photos - Varo Azuree 40 - Azuree 40 launch - 13 marzo 2011 | Facebook

Last edited by G1000; 05-19-2011 at 10:09 AM.
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