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  #1021  
Old 05-19-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
Exterior gallery is the same for both versions... Cruiser has fixed backstay
http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/foto...smekan-26b.jpg or http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/foto...smekan-11b.jpg

Upgraded Cruiser with performance alu mast and keel should have running backstays as Fast Cruiser. Varo Azuree 40 - Azuree 40 launch - 13 marzo 2011 | Facebook

And Fast Cruiser has carbon mast. Here it looks like with "white" carbon mast http://www.azuree.com.tr/images/foto...smekan-22b.jpg and here black one Facebook
I am quite sure you can have a cruiser with an optional backstay and you probably can have a fast cruiser with an aluminum mast. What really counts is the keel draft and that is a 2.16 keel. So it is really basically an Azuree cruiser. See my previous post.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1022  
Old 05-19-2011
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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
....
In regards of manufacturing I understand what you say. At the same time the Sirena factory set up is getting alot of attention and praise and for instance alla moulded parts are individually marked for quality control follow ups.

By the way, when I was at Wauquiez they where laminating reinforcements for the keel into hulls already having the interior in place. Seems odd..

Regards,
Anders
Yes that is certainly odd. I am not saying that the Opium is well made and strong. I don't know that, I only know that Wauquiez has a very good reputation.

To put even things more clear it is obviously that when you go to minimum weights you have to be very careful with material resistance and also with efforts not previewed on the boats like groundings, even not really hard groundings. Most problems with performance boats (and I am not saying they are frequent) have to do with keels attachments to the hull and to shrouds attachment to the hull. That's why if I can I will have a boat that transmits those efforts to a steel grid instead of a small part of the hull, boats like the X-Yachts, Luffe, Arcona, Grand-Soleil or Salona. And I say if I can because normally this system is expensive and those boats (with the exception of Salona) are very expensive.

I am not saying by any means that the other boats that don't distribute efforts by all the hull are not safe or built for the job I am just stating my preferences in what regards using a performance boat as a cruising boat. That one and a good reserve stability (good AVS) make part of my short list in what regards my preferences for a fast cruising boat. A good reserve stability is specially important for me because I sail solo most of the time and that makes that requirement very important.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-19-2011 at 10:34 AM.
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  #1023  
Old 05-19-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
I have had a lot of communication with their sale manager the last days and he is giving a very good and knowledgable impression. ...
Anders,

Can you ask their sale manager to sent you the stability curves of the 2 versions of the Azuree 40? They have them because they were needed to certificate the boats.

This is the one that was published on Yachtingworld regarding the Azuree fast cruiser:



It shows a very powerful boat (big positive stability curve) with a somewhat poor AVS (114º). The boat has still a lot of positive stability at 90º of heel but very little at 100º of heel.

This is the best stability curve, the one with the better reserve stability. The one from the Azuree cruiser will have a lower AVS and a worse reserve stability. I would like to see how much worse. This certainly interest you also.

Ask them also the ORC file from both boats. The AVS is also there and it is from a stability curve that is made the same way for all boats and therefore more interesting for comparative purposes.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1024  
Old 05-20-2011
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Some more pictures of the Dehler 41.

These are the only ones that I can get from the interior and confirm what I have saw on those drawings: They better find a new interior designer

Contrary to other Dehlers the interior of this one does not look good. The mast is on the middle of the boat and that is a problem that cannot be avoided, therefore all the interior design have to be made taking that into consideration and not pretending the mast is not there (has they have done in the drawings). To compensate that this interior has to be firm and strong in its lines, not an indifferent design like the one that is purposed. That space between the drawers without a port hull just looks ridiculous. It should have a port hull bigger than the other two.

I really hope they can improve it because it is a shame such a good looking boat with such a lame interior. I believe they know that but they did not even figure out yet what to do with the saloon table, never mind the rest. The solution of letting the space free is a good one but they have to figure out a practical solution for the table. Up in the ceiling and coming down around the mast it would be a nice solution. Nice but bold and they are quite conservative so I bet they will end up with a stepped mast and a shinny small chromed tube instead of that mast inside the cabin (like on the Oceanis 37), at least in the cruising versions.




Last edited by PCP; 05-20-2011 at 06:59 AM.
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  #1025  
Old 05-20-2011
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I have the same feeling, Paulo.
Even assuming this interior is only a first try, it does not meet the Dehler standards as I know them. Even with a table and hull windows, it will remain a quite dark "Swiss chalet" like interior with the look & feel of the past century.

Having sailed "old" Dehlers extensively (31, 34, 35 OD, 39, 44) and after reading about some of the "new" releases since Hanse took over, I start to worry about downgrading.

If this is not too much out of thread, I wonder how other "aficionados" of the original Dehler brand such as Anders feel about this.

Best regards,

Eric
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  #1026  
Old 05-20-2011
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Hei Eric,

By all means that is "much" inside the thread

I am not sure the problem is a quality problem, I mean regarding materials and workmanship. For that I would have to visit the boat. This seems to me a design problem. I am pretty sure that the one that have made the sketches for the Dehler interior was the same that made the sketches for the hanse 325. The interior sketches from the Hanse 325 and from the Dehler 41 were previously posted on this thread.

Hanse Yachts

You can see that is the same "artist" doing both drawings. The drawings are not bad but the quality of the design that is behind is mediocre. I had that sensation when I saw the drawings and now I can confirm it with the reality. You can make a drawing look good but you need trained eyes to see if want is going to be built based on that design is going to look good

It seems to me that the problem here is a design problem and extensive to Hanse. I don't know your opinion but I would say that technically the quality of the design of their interiors is a lot worse than the ones from Dufour, Benetau or Jeanneau (I am not talking about the quality of materials, that is equivalent). It seems that Hanse decided to take part in the design of the Dehler interior and the results are what we would expect.

They should have put instead the guys that used to design the interiors of the last Dehler designing the Hanse's interiors

The design of the boat interior is so important that today many boat builders give the interior design to a specialized studio other than the one responsible for the design of the boat (they work together). Most French boats work this way and the difference in design quality more than compensates the extra costs. Design quality can even hide shortcomings in material quality and that's a lot cheaper to have a boat well designed than a boat built with prime materials and a bad design. If you build a boat with prime materials and workmanship over a nasty design...well, it is going to look bad anyway, no matter the cost

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-20-2011 at 01:10 PM.
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  #1027  
Old 05-20-2011
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Hi Eric and Paulo,
I have always found Dehlers (of modern age) very dark inside. Dark wood and small windows. Only the cws-range from early 90 is to my liking.

By the way I today finally decided and have signed for a Wauquiez Opium 39, hull 11, to be delivered 2011-06-15. It was a close call with Azuree 40 but the better size for me, lighter boat and much bigger cabin top windows where among important factors.

Regards from the cockpit of my sold Dehler in a natural harbour north of Gothebourg, in beatiful sunshine,
Anders.

Last edited by JAndersB; 05-20-2011 at 02:59 PM.
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  #1028  
Old 05-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
They should have put instead the guys that used to design the interiors of the last Dehler designing the Hanse's interiors
I think that's right on top, Paulo. But how long before a Dehler will also look like a Hanse at the outside ?

Best regards,

Eric
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  #1029  
Old 05-20-2011
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Interesting the lounge room look of the insides of a boat is so important to some; maybe if you lived on a boat. To me as soon as I see too much wood I cringe. It smacks of the Marina Trophy Look (MTL) and all too often style triumphs over substance. It’s as if the sailors designed a good boat only to see it destroyed by the interior designers. Then there’s the weight issue; the hull engineer goes to great lengths to minimize hull weight only to see things like 30Kg teak cockpit tables and 11 Kg doors installed (on my boat anyway). Such tables/doors look great in a house but not a boat. Using composite furniture of course goes a long way towards solving the furniture weight issue.

There also seems to be shift from that lounge room look by some designers, B-Yachts and the Pogo for example, where the minimalist looks gives functionality and most of all easy maintenance. If I were to buy a new boat these are the ones I would much prefer.

I would be quite happy with the Dehler furniture look so long as it was light weight, functional and easy to maintain; anything less would be an abomination to a well designed and built outside.

Last edited by Aac; 05-20-2011 at 04:06 PM.
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  #1030  
Old 05-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
By the way I today finally decided and have signed for a Wauquiez Opium 39, hull 11, to be delivered 2011-06-15. It was a close call with Azuree 40 but the better size for me, lighter boat and much bigger cabin top windows where among important factors.
Congratulations, Anders!
After what I heard and read about the Opium it seems to me you made an excellent choice. And I personally think the Opium also looks much better than the Azuree .

Concerning Dehler, I could'nt agree more. The 39 CWS e.g., dating from the past century, looks much more innovative inside than what Dehler/Hanse are launching today.

But Wauquiez will certainly do an excellent quality job, also of your new interior .

Best regards,

Eric
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