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  #1031  
Old 05-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aac View Post
Interesting the lounge room look of the insides of a boat is so important to some; maybe if you lived on a boat. To me as soon as I see too much wood I cringe. It smacks of the Marina Trophy Look (MTL) and all too often style triumphs over substance. It’s as if the sailors designed a good boat only to see it destroyed by the interior designers. Then there’s the weight issue; the hull engineer goes to great lengths to minimize hull weight only to see things like 30Kg teak cockpit tables and 11 Kg doors installed (on my boat anyway). Such tables/doors look great in a house but not a boat. Using composite furniture of course goes a long way towards solving the furniture weight issue.

There also seems to be shift from that lounge room look by some designers, B-Yachts and the Pogo for example, where the minimalist looks gives functionality and most of all easy maintenance. If I were to buy a new boat these are the ones I would much prefer.


I would be quite happy with the Dehler furniture look so long as it was light weight, functional and easy to maintain; anything less would be an abomination to a well designed and built outside.
One of the first boats to use that lounge room look was the Gozzard and that one is not very light

Today it is possible to have a good looking interior with very light materials. somewhere back there is a post about the FinnFlyer. Look at the weight of the boat and look at the beautiful interior. That interior is beautiful and light

There are many uses for a sailboat but if one of them is living in it for extended periods I will want to have a minimum of comfort and a nice ambiance.

Regarding the Dehler the weight of the furniture would be about the same, bad or well designed.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 12-18-2013 at 09:42 AM.
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  #1032  
Old 05-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
Congratulations, Anders!
After what I heard and read about the Opium it seems to me you made an excellent choice. And I personally think the Opium also looks much better than the Azuree .

Concerning Dehler, I could'nt agree more. The 39 CWS e.g., dating from the past century, looks much more innovative inside than what Dehler/Hanse are launching today.

But Wauquiez will certainly do an excellent quality job, also of your new interior .

Best regards,

Eric
Thanks' Eric, it will be exiting to take the thing out for spin.

My wife is a furniture designer for Ikea and she is not a fan of dark, wooden caves so she liked the more modern look of the Azuree interior but she could live with the light and well put togheter interior of the Wauquiez. By the way, the new Opium 47 will have a much more modern look inside.

Regards,
Anders
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  #1033  
Old 05-20-2011
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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
Hi Eric and Paulo,
I have always found Dehlers (of modern age) very dark inside. Dark wood and small windows. Only the cws-range from early 90 is to my liking.

By the way I today finally decided and have signed for a Wauquiez Opium 39, hull 11, to be delivered 2011-06-15. It was a close call with Azuree 40 but the better size for me, lighter boat and much bigger cabin top windows where among important factors.

Regards from the cockpit of my sold Dehler in a natural harbour north of Gothebourg, in beatiful sunshine,
Anders.
The interiors that were dark were the ones from some years ago. The Dehlers I have saw in the last years on the boat shows have nice interiors and light woods. Of course, probably you have to pay more for it (probably mahogany is standard) but everybody choses to pay





Anders, Congratulations for the Opium 39 . Like the Eric I like it a lot more than the Azuree and I really would be concerned about the safety stability of the Azuree Standard cruiser. Do you have asked them the stability curve?

I didn't want to push it with you because you really looked very interested in the Azuree, but now that you have decided have a look at the stability curve from the Opium and look at the differences with the one from the Azuree fast cruiser:





Regarding reserve stability you read it this way - the force the boat is making to right itself up is equal to the area under the curve from that angle of heel till the AVS. If both curves are very similar in what regards low angles of heel you will see that the areas (and the force the boat is making to right itself up) from 70º to the AVS are very different and hugely different after 90º of heel. And that curve is the one from the Fast cruiser, the one from the Standard cruiser is will be a lot worse in what regards reserve stability.

Maybe it is because I once got caught in the middle of the night by a tornado or a micro burst or some weird meteorologic phenomena that have my boat lying in the water for what seamed to me like a long time (even if probably it was just some minutes) that I really consider important a boat to have a good safety stability. When the wind stopped to blow at a huge speed the boat right itself up, like it was nothing notwithstanding a radar dome in the mast. I would really hate to have continued knocked-down specially because my daughter was inside the boat

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-20-2011 at 05:40 PM.
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  #1034  
Old 05-20-2011
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Dear friends I would need your support to choose the next boat for living aboard full time.
I have to tell in advance that I dont have enough time to sail far or crossing oceans. I do some nice weekend in the 40 miles radius and some holiday inthe summer, covering a distance of 400 - 500 miles. So my main use of the boat is like a house. In the beginnig I was considering to buy a new boat (azuree or opium) but now I changed idea. I'm considering to buy a Bavaria 49. I'm impressed by the space inside!
I know the quality is not comparable with Hallberg Rassy, but I would like to know some opinion regarding the safety and durability of such boats.
Do you think this is a reliable yacht or I will waste my money buying one?
The general opinion about Bavaria doesnt encourage the purchase, but what is the truth about this boat?
Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

Regards, yus.

Last edited by yus; 05-20-2011 at 05:44 PM.
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  #1035  
Old 05-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yus View Post
Dear friends I would need your support to choose the next boat for living aboard full time.
I have to tell in advance that I dont have enough time to sail far or crossing oceans. I do some nice weekend in the 40 miles radius and some holiday inthe summer, covering a distance of 400 - 500 miles. So my main use of the boat is like a house. In the beginnig I was considering to buy a new boat (azuree or opium) but now I changed idea. I'm considering to buy a Bavaria 49. I'm impressed by the space inside!
I know the quality is not comparable with Hallberg Rassy, but I would like to know some opinion regarding the safety and durability of such boats.
Do you think this is a reliable yacht or I will waste my money buying one?
The general opinion about Bavaria doesnt encourage the purchase, but what is the truth about this boat?
Thank you in advance for your suggestions.

Regards, yus.
Yus, are you for real?

Some posts back you have said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by yus View Post
.. We live aboard our blue water cruiser boat for 9 years and now it is time to buy a new different type of boat. We are very much interested in the new fast cruiser boats below 40 feet, we appreciate the concept and the main features. We need a strong and safe boat which is also suitable to live aboard. I know a 40 feet could be the best solution but our purchase budget is limited and also we need to keep low the expenses.
The Azuree 33 seems to be very attractive (I have read almost all your articles in the thread). In the same cat and range price I have found the Elan 350, which is pretty too. In a different category (cheaper also) there is the Oceanis 34, but I have some doubts about her general building quality and safety. Same feeling for the bigger sister Oceanis 37, which anyway could represent a good compromise quality-living space/price. But the first two boats are much more attractive. An other boat to investigate could be the RM 1050, but I don't know to much about this model. I don't like the galley and the front cabin. I loved the 1200 but out of range.
I would appreciate your comments about what I said and my needs. Any type of support will be more than welcome.
Yus
And now you want a Bavaria 49? what happened to the low budget? even if you are talking of an used boat the maintenance, the insurance and marina costs would be hugely superior.

You say that you have lived the last 9 years on a small boat and now you want a 49ft? Are you going to sail it alone, take it alone from the marina?

Regards

Paulo
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  #1036  
Old 05-20-2011
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Hello Paulo! I understand you are shocked, but few days ago when I got into a Bavaria 49 I was impressed by the space inside. So I thought "this is what I need in terms of space"! So I'm exploring the possibility to evaluate the purchase of such boat. Of course I mean to get an used one. Budget is still very low, but in the market you can find a good one for 100k€.
That is all. So pls give some opinion about Bavaria on the base of real experiences.
Regards
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  #1037  
Old 05-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aac View Post
Using composite furniture of course goes a long way towards solving the furniture weight issue.

I would be quite happy with the Dehler furniture look so long as it was light weight, functional and easy to maintain; anything less would be an abomination to a well designed and built outside.
Some builders go all the way and even provide no doors at all, or only one for the heads/shower. It looks quite shocking but in fact it can work quite well, at least for us since we do not intend to live on board.
And the furniture you really need can now indeed be made in very lightweight but evenly strong composite materials. I held between fingertips a floorboard that could carry my (excessive ) weight without a crank. Of course this only makes sense for light displacement boats intended for planing, on a Hallberg-Rassy type of yacht these (expensive) materials are of no use. The inside must honour the outside. But it does illustrate why the €/kg ratio can be high without being excessive .

Interiors are of course especially a matter of personal taste, but I also agree with Aac that they may at least be functional and certainly not a source of needless trouble (slots oxydating, hinges breaking, ceelings, linings and kit coming loose etc.) or excessive work for cleaning and maintenance (mildew behind coutermouldings, dust and dirt in inaccessible spaces). So functional minimalism also suits me very well, although I perfectly understand why many others don't like it at all .

Meanwhile I carefully monitor the excellent discussion about (vanishing) stability. Looking only at the basic figures the Pogo 12.50 should do quite well, but I did not see the stability curve yet. I look forward to your expert opinion, Paulo. Even if it's bad news, I'll take it like a man !

Best regards,

Eric
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  #1038  
Old 05-21-2011
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I also tried to find more info for the Pogo 12.50, even if I erlier excluded it from my shortlist partly based on communication with a Norvegian RM1350 ovner. It would be nice to compare ballast ratio and AVS with Opium and Azuree.

He found the 10.50 interior on the pretty new test boat alredy looking very batterned and more important the bare hull and deck visible everywhere causing to much noice and condensation. But if you do not intend to spend an extensive time aboard, and also not in our somewhat colder climate that would not be so important. Design wise both me and wife liked the Pogo interior.

Paulo, I had had so many question rounds with Azuree when you asked for the AVS-curve so I intended to ask for it later, and now when I stepped of the deal in the very last moment, it feels a little silly to do it.

Yes, latest Dehlers, or at least bigger ones before Hanse take ower, have brighter interiors at least as an option. But still they miss out on hull windows, and cabin top windows on a level where somebody less than 2m can see out.

Regards,
Anders

Last edited by JAndersB; 05-21-2011 at 01:44 AM.
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  #1039  
Old 05-21-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yus View Post
Hello Paulo! I understand you are shocked, but few days ago when I got into a Bavaria 49 I was impressed by the space inside. So I thought "this is what I need in terms of space"! So I'm exploring the possibility to evaluate the purchase of such boat. Of course I mean to get an used one. Budget is still very low, but in the market you can find a good one for 100k€.
That is all. So pls give some opinion about Bavaria on the base of real experiences.
Regards
I don't think that you can find a Bavaria 49 for 100 000€ at least with the VAT paid. I think it is a 2002? boat and the best I could find was 125 000 € with VAT not paid. There is nothing wrong with the boat even if I would not call it an interesting boat. For a mass market boat is a strong boat that was made primarily for charter work and the fact that it was proven very well and was chosen in large scale by charter companies says well about its robustness. But pay attention, 7 years on a boat doing charter can be the equivalent of more than 20 years of use by a typical owner. Almost all the boats you will find in the market will be of decommissioned charter boats.

As I have said the maintenance of a boat will have to do with size and any 10 year's old 50 ft will have a very expensive maintenance if compared with a new or almost new 37ft.

That's my last advice to you , If you want a boat with a very good and big interior to live aboard but small enough to be sailed and maneuvered in a marina by a couple look for an used Oceanis 43 with two cabins. The interior is very well designed and the boat will have more than enough sailing abilities for your program. Probably all the boats you will find in the market with two cabins will not be ex-Charter boats but owner's boats and many of them will be very lightly used. The prices are not bad but well over 100 000€ but not more than what would cost you a new Benetau 37 or a new Azuree 33.

Oceanis 43 / Oceanis / Sailing Yachts - BENETEAU

Regards

Paulo
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  #1040  
Old 05-21-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
...

Meanwhile I carefully monitor the excellent discussion about (vanishing) stability. Looking only at the basic figures the Pogo 12.50 should do quite well, but I did not see the stability curve yet. I look forward to your expert opinion, Paulo. Even if it's bad news, I'll take it like a man !

Best regards,

Eric
Eric,

I think you have already suffered enough . You have nothing to be affraid regarding the Pogo stability, namely the AVS and the safety stability. That's a finot/conq boat and Finot was the guy that have pressed hard to make mandatory on Open 60's and class 40's very strict seaworthiness and reserve stability characteristics. He takes safety very seriously.

I don't have the stability curve of the 12.50 (you should ask for one) but I have an older one from the First Pogo 40. Five or six years ago I was interested in the cruising version of the Pogo 40 and I have asked them for a stability curve.

The one I am going to post is from the race boat but I am sure the new boat has not very different characteristics in what regards stability. Contrary to Azuree, Pogo (and Finot) compensates the lesser efficiency of the keel of the cruising boat (less draft or swinging keel) with significantly more ballast (450Kg).

I believe the stability curves of the racing boat and the cruising boat will be very similar (not taking in consideration the liquid ballast of the race boat). On the racing keel boat you have a 3m draft and a 1800kg bulb. On the swinging
Keel or the 2.2 m bulbed keel you have 2250kg ballast. That's a 450kg difference and one that seems adequate to compensate that 0.8 m different in draft. Maybe there is still a slight difference in what regards stability to the racing boat, but not a big one as in the Azuree 40.

Most of the stability difference between the Pogo racing and the Pogo cruiser will come from the liquid ballasts that are inexistent on the cruising boat. The racing boat will also be faster because only in ballast that 3 m draft permits it to be almost 500kg lighter.

Other factor that indicates a very good stability curve with a good AVS and a good reserve stability is the high B/D ratio for a boat with a bomb keel and a 2.2M draft: 40% of B/D taking into consideration those characteristics is a very good ratio.



Regards

Paulo
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