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post #1071 of 6763 Old 05-27-2011 Thread Starter
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Thanks bb74,

Very nice post. Your impressions are in accordance with my experience with Bavarias and what I have heard from Charter operators and also with what I have herd and read about the Oceanis 37.

Regarding the Oceanis 37 (a Finot design) I like so much the boat and its relation between price and performance that last year I have asked a dealer how much it would cost to modify the boat to be a better performer: Premium sails, Gennaker pole and genaker, removable stay sail and so on. It was not so inexpensive anymore

I have heard that the boat can go very well under spinnaker or geenaker downwind with a remarkable stability and speed, and as you say, it is not bad upwind even if decent sails and a better rigging would improve that a lot.

The polar shows a fast boat that can easily sail over 7K (10K wind) and that with 30K wind can do over 12K downwind.

I like the Oceanis 37, that contrary to the other mass production boats does not seem fat (that's probably why bb74 says that it looks like a 35ft) and has a good storage pace, specially in the two cabin version that also has a decent head. Three years after being released is still my favorite mass production 37fts

Regarding the Bavaria 42 I am not surprised with your findings. I had own one Bavaria for almost 10 years and my wife used to compare the quality of it with other boats on boat shows and he was always complaining about other comparable boats being not as resistant and having less storage space. Also that is the reason there are so many Bavarias doing charter. They can take better the abuse. Regarding sailing speed even if they are no rockets its speed potential is normally underestimated. They have also a remarkable performance package (that we cannot find in charter boats) that includes top quality sails and lead big draft keel.

Some years ago I charted a 44 from a Spanish guy that was doing with it the offshore solo Spanish championship and he was doing alright. The boat was maximized and was not slow, it was very agreeable to sail . It was also an easy boat to sail solo.

Thanks again bb74. Guys, this is a great idea. If any of you guys sail a recent boat, please make a post about it. I am going to see if I can find the notes I have taken last year when I sailed a Dufour 425 and I will take notes about the 2011 Salona 41 that I am going to charter this year.


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post #1072 of 6763 Old 05-28-2011 Thread Starter
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The new Cigale 16,an aluminum boat and, one of my favorites, was tested by the French magazine "Bateau". They have said very well about the boat but they din't like the steering position. They want two wheels, they say that the one that is there is too big. Well, I have been inside the boat in the Paris boat show and I loved the wheel position and I loved the boat. The guys from Voile and Voiliers didn't like it also. I have an explanation: That boat is strictly for big guys. I have 1.90 and the two other guys (looking at the photos) probably have not more than 1.70. They could barely look over the wheel

Regarding the place for the wheel man, probably they are right because Marc Lombard, the designer, that was on board agreed on the two wheel set up.

Seriously and back to the test: This boat has not water ballasts like the previous model(I loved the water ballasts ) , it has two rudders and more 15% of sail area. The weight and the ballast are about the same but now all the ballast is on a bulb. They are considering to have an all carbon rig. The boat costs about half a million euros.

They had about 13 k wind and they found out that the Genoa was badly cut and that didn't permit them to go closer than 45 of the true wind.

At 45TW they were making 7.5K with little helling. Opening up, 60 to 90 they got easily 8.5/9.5K. Downwind with a geenaker they got 9/10K going till 11K.

On the trade winds, with constant 18/25K, this boat is going to be very fast and very comfortable. They say the boat pass the waves without slamming and the reduced heeling will also contribute to that comfort (the boat is designed to perform best with 17 of heel).

The boat has a great cruising interior with a big sail storage space. On this video, made in the Paris boat show) you can have a feeling about the interior, but that is a low quality video and I can tell you that the boat looks a lot better than on the movie.

Voiles et Voiliers : Chantier - Video voilier Salon nautique, nouveau Cigale 16 : bien, mais…

The boat is a looker and that is not frequent in aluminum boats:

Last edited by PCP; 05-28-2011 at 04:27 PM.
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post #1073 of 6763 Old 05-29-2011 Thread Starter
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A bit ashamed by bb74 post, finally I am going to post my impressions on the Dufour 425 I had charted last summer. It was a 5 month old boat and probably had already been subject to some savage treatment: Someone had saw in the galley wood (in several places) probably while cutting bread with a a big knife, the bow showed the marks of lack of care taking the anchor out of water (it was badly chipped) and the fiber near the stairs (that supported the weight) was strained and almost broken and broke while we were using it.

The boat can have an Inox bow protection that I strongly recommend even if that damage of the boat was just incredible (I had never had any problem in taking the anchor out). That fiberglass support of the stairs needs a reinforcement that would not be difficult to do with two stainless still plates. A weak point in a very well designed stair system/storage/bench, the best I ever saw.

But first things first, why I, looking for a fast performance cruiser boat have decided to extensively test a mass production cruiser? Well that boat offers a very good cockpit and I have read in tests that it was fast. It offers also a big interior with an excellent galley and an extraordinary overall storage space. It is one of the few 42fts that I would have with three cabins because the storage space is just enough even with 3 cabins. The Dufour 425 had passed my wife examen in what regards storage, overall quality and design. It would be a boat that would be very agreeable for living extensively.

Big freezer, big galley. Under the opposing seat (that serves as support when the boat is helled) there is a large storage space.

The saloon is big and under some of the seats there are more storage space. The quality of upholstery leave to desire and the quality of the plastic covers is not agreeable (imitating leader). They have better quality as an option and the upholstery can be redone later by a good professional. We like more the traditional set up, with the galley separated from the saloon but I can see here the advantages in storage and size of galley that this disposition can provide.

My wife really loved the two heads, specially the one in the main cabin, big, with a good cabinet and a very good separated shower.

The main cabin is also very good and the back ones are good.

The chart table is big and the seat very comfortable. It is really a nice place to be working, reading or to be surfing the net.

Dufour 425 €“ Dufour 425 Sailboat €“ Boat factsheet

The boat has a good all around ventilation and a good access to the engine. With 450L of water and 160L of fuel has a good tankage.

On the outside the revolving system that turns a back seat into a storage space and putts the ladder into the water is very well designed but no so well executed. It can be fixed easily. It can also provide a different sailing position at the wheel. You can sail with the seat down having more space to steer and using the lateral sides for support. You have just to pull the stairs up. Multivalent and nicely designed

On the cockpit, besides that storage space under the back seat the boat has two deep lockers on the back, one on each side that would be great for having all the fenders ( for that you have to tie all those lines and tubes and have some work for maximizing its storage potential), independent space for two bottles of gas and two big side lockers. The anchor looker is also big, with lot's of space for storage of garbage bags (before they can be disposed).

The boat has an excellent cockpit, big, with the winch near the wheel and a very good sun cover, with bimini joining the sprayhood. The table is well made and has the right size. The anchor support and roller is well designed with space to run a second anchor, but it could be stronger. Not difficult to reinforce although.

another very nice feature that I had only found out later is the space for the dinghy that was obviously studied and that is rare. You can carry a 4 person dinghy in a central space, not touching nor obstructing any openings and in a place where the spinacker halyard will just put it, if you use it to put the boat in and out of the water. To take it or in the water is a simple one person job. On that position the boat does not also interfere with the sailing and has just the right spots to tie it down. Just perfect

Regarding myself and the things that are more important to me, the boat does not look fat as most of its sisters do, the high free-board is not apparent and I find it a good looking boat. What have decided me to test the boat was a comparative test with the XC42 that had shown very similar sailing characteristics (speed and sea motion comfort). Well, I have not money for the X42, but this one was just a bit over the budget, so I decided to have a good look at it.

The boat weights 8820kg has a 2.10m bulbed keel with a 2440kg of ballast. This gives a B/D ratio of 28%. I would have liked more but that is a measure that is in accordance with the boats of this type with some with less, like for instance, the Beneteau 43 with 27%. It carries 84 m2 of sail. This weight to sail area is also average on the class.

The tested boat had not the performance sails it is a standard version that is somehow more sportier than the standard version of other brands with the exception of the Hanse, that is comparable. The boat had a folding propeller (that I doubt it was working, I mean folding)

So lets see if this boat that satisfies my wife and me in what regards living aboard will satisfy me and my speed mania

First agreeable impression was how easy is to sail this boat solo. That winch near the wheel is just a big help.

The second impression is that the steering is not very informative. Not really heavy but very far away from my old Bavaria and some other more sportier boats I have sailed. I did not like it

The genoa had a damaged tunning line (some stupid had blocked it with a lot of blind knots) and I could not prevent it to beat slightly when really pointing to the wind) and has I have said these were just plain dracon sails. With that I have managed:

With 6.6k wind 4.5k speed at 35 ApW and 5.4K speed with 7.2K wind.

With 8.8k wind 6.6k speed at 38 Apw and with 8.7K wind 5.9K at 28 Apw.

As I have read on other tests, this boat could point to the wind and had a decent speed with weak to weak medium winds.

I was not so convinced with medium speeds were the boat could go very easily to 7K but had difficulty in reaching 8K.

With 12.3K wind at 60 Apw 7.1K speed, with 12.8k wind at Apw 90 (140 true) 5.7k speed and at 170 TW 4.0K speed.

We do have reached 8K and over several times with more wind but I had not measured it. I was having fun

Under engine (55 hp) the boat performed well: 7.5K at 2500rpm, 6.8K at 2000rpm.

Well, in the end we loved the boat, specially the big galley and the cockpit (and my wife the shower) but the boat has not just the performance I want, specially with more wind. I guess it has to do with the relation between sail area and weight. This year I am going to charter the Salona 41 that has less 1600kg, the same ballast but deeper and has more 27m2 of sail. I guess it is going to be different

So if this is not the boat I want why this long post for a boat that is almost being substituted by a new one? Well because this is an excellent cruising boat, a fast boat with light winds, with a good pointing ability and a boat that will satisfy sailors that are not so performance minded has I am and most of all a boat that the ones that don't have the budget for a new boat can find at nice prices in the used market. The boat was sold in large numbers and that's the right time to buy a good boat with few years by an attractive price



Last edited by PCP; 06-14-2011 at 09:09 AM.
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post #1074 of 6763 Old 05-29-2011
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hey Marty, you are going to love this one, a small boat, the Juwel 28 also known as the Broker 28. Never heard about it till I saw an interesting movie and thought: a hell of a boat .

It is a Danish boat. I love Danish boats, it is incredible how such a small country as so many great boats (X yachts, Luffe, Faurby, Nordship). This one is a 10 year old design but is just beautiful. Enjoy the videos. Nice music too

YouTube - ‪Team ICE Mors Cup 2009 - Fast sailing, 35 knots tws‬‏

YouTube - ‪GoPro HD as headcam - racing with‬‏

Juwel 28


oh man, how would that be for around the buoys and/or a bit of club twilight. Sweet as.

Now what about the Cigale - very nice indeed. Has the feel of the Steve Dashew Sundeers in some ways.

Andrew B (Mal 39 Classic)

Life is a trick, and you get one chance to learn it.
― Terry Pratchett.
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post #1075 of 6763 Old 05-29-2011
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Any insights on SAGA yachts esp the 409. Modern "Euro" look but Canadian built solidness and quality. Perfect balance of a proven blue water, good performance in light winds and absolutely gorgeous interior. Great stowage and big tanks. Most of all, 3-4 year olds are in the $200ks range which I find relatively economical.

For the price, I can't find flaws in this boat but again I'm a newbie.

YouTube - ‪41' Saga 409 @‬‏

1974 CC 27

Last edited by Chimbatete; 05-29-2011 at 08:58 PM.
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post #1076 of 6763 Old 05-29-2011
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The Saga 409 is nice but I prefer the older Saga 43 by Bob Perry.
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Living aboard in Victoria Harbour
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post #1077 of 6763 Old 05-29-2011
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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The Saga 409 is nice but I prefer the older Saga 43 by Bob Perry.
Everyone prefers that 43s but the interior layout of the 409 seems alot brighter on more open concept and I may be wrong but seems to be a tad nimbler in light winds.

1974 CC 27
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post #1078 of 6763 Old 05-29-2011
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You are witnessing the dramatic disintegration for my mono love.
All I can think of is Trimarans now. Small, medium, large, I love them all.
Spending a lot of time over at SA/MH trying to learn as much as I can. I've signed on to many multihull boards, ordered a lot of books and I'm looking at study plans all the time. Dragonflys, Farriers, Corsairs, Contours, and designs of Chris White, Mike Waters, Kurt Hughes, Dick Newick, Antrim, et al... I'm even looking at Weta's and Windriders for the beach.
Probaby just a phase I have to work through..
BTW, thanks for post 1218.
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post #1079 of 6763 Old 05-29-2011
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I've never sailed a multihull but I could learn to like a Chris White Atlantic cat.

Atlantic Catamarans by Chris White Designs Performance Luxury Catamaran

Here's the 42 at 20 knots.
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post #1080 of 6763 Old 05-30-2011
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I've put together a table of many of the new boats mentioned on this thread. It assumes a bulb keel. The righting moment at 90 degrees is given by Draft*Ballast. The Draft*Ballast/Weight number is what I consider important for stability (hull form neglected).

The table is sorted by Draft*Ballast/Weight. This is a very basic analysis but its no coincidence the boats considered performance boats have the highest number. Also scoring well are the so called quality boats such Hallberg-Rassy which even though is not a performance boat it is stable.

All boats mentioned are of course good; I would opinionate however and say all boats from and including Beneteau First 40 are very 'good'.

Draft, Ballast, Draft*Ballast, Weight, Draft*Ballast/Weight
1.55____2357____3653____8260____0.44____Beneteau Oceanis 40
1.70____3240____5508____10465___0.53____Beneteau Oceanis 46 Shoal
2.03____2336____4742____8990____0.53____Dufour 405 GL
2.15____1385____2978____5350____0.56____Elan 35, Shoal
2.00____2750____5500____9800____0.56____Moody 41
1.52____5443____8295____14514___0.57____Island Packet, IP460
2.05____2915____5976____10465___0.57____Beneteau Oceanis 46, Deep
2.35____1300____3055____5350____0.57____Elan 35, Deep
1.75____3040____5320____8940____0.60____Bavaria Vision 40, Shoal
2.10____2386____5011____7950____0.63____Dufour 40e
2.10____2260____4746____7450____0.64____Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409
2.10____2600____5460____8500____0.64____Bavaria Cruiser 40
1.80____3311____5960____8981____0.66____Saga 409
1.98____2951____5843____8800____0.66____Hunter 41 ds
2.05____2685____5504____7900____0.70____Hanse 400
2.10____4000____8400____12000___0.70____Najad 410
2.15____1850____3978____5600____0.71____Wauquiez Opium 39
1.92____3600____6912____9500____0.73____Malo 40
2.14____3040____6506____8940____0.73____Bavaria Vision 40, Deep
2.45____2469____6049____8300____0.73____Elan 410
2.18____2760____6017____8250____0.73____Delphia 40
1.88____4671____8781____11791___0.74____Rustler 42
2.10____2800____5880____8000____0.74____Luffe 43Ds
2.29____2903____6648____8892____0.75____Tartan 4000
2.25____2400____5400____7200____0.75____Solana 41
2.20____2700____5940____7800____0.76____RM 1200
2.11____3266____6891____8936____0.77____Catalina 400
1.98____2494____4938____6396____0.77____C&C 121
2.30____2736____6293____8140____0.77____Bavaria Sport
2.25____3892____8757____11300___0.77____Elan 45, Shoal
1.90____5000____9500____12170___0.78____Blue Water 420CC
2.60____3445____8957____11300___0.79____Elan 45, Deep
2.20____2995____6589____8095____0.81____Dehler 41, Standard
1.93____3340____6446____7900____0.82____Beneteau First 40
1.99____4100____8159____9988____0.82____Hallberg-Rassy 40
2.65____1930____5115____6230____0.82____Sydney 39
2.50____2600____6500____7800____0.83____Arcona 410
2.08____2400____4992____6000____0.83____Luffe 40.04
2.41____4770____11510___13779___0.84____Beneteau First 50, Standard
2.35____2760____6486____7600____0.85____Wauquiez Centurion 40s
2.80____4300____12040___13779___0.87____Beneteau First 50, Deep
2.20____2200____4840____5450____0.89____JPK 110
2.50____2520____6300____6900____0.91____Sly 42
2.40____2995____7188____7590____0.95____Dehler 41, Racing
1.80____3000____5400____5600____0.96____B Yachts, B 42, Shoal
3.00____1800____5400____5500____0.98____Pogo 12.5
2.50____2730____6825____6800____1.00____X 41 One Design
3.00____1800____5400____4800____1.13____Pogo40 Racer/Cruser
2.47____3100____7657____6400____1.20____Archambaul t A40rc
3.00____4200____12600___10500___1.20____Allures 44
2.40____3000____7200____5600____1.29____B Yachts, B 42, Deep
2.77____3352____9285____6985____1.33____Santa Cruz 43
3.60____4600____16560___11229___1.47____Marten 49, Sailing - not light displacement
3.60____4600____16560___9500____1.74____Marten 49

Last edited by Aac; 05-30-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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