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  #1081  
Old 05-30-2011
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I've put together a table of many of the new boats mentioned on this thread. It assumes a bulb keel. The righting moment at 90 degrees is given by Draft*Ballast. The Draft*Ballast/Weight number is what I consider important for stability (hull form neglected).

The table is sorted by Draft*Ballast/Weight. This is a very basic analysis but its no coincidence the boats considered performance boats have the highest number. Also scoring well are the so called quality boats such Hallberg-Rassy which even though is not a performance boat it is stable.

All boats mentioned are of course good; I would opinionate however and say all boats from and including Beneteau First 40 are very 'good'.

Draft, Ballast, Draft*Ballast, Weight, Draft*Ballast/Weight
1.55____2357____3653____8260____0.44____Beneteau Oceanis 40
1.70____3240____5508____10465___0.53____Beneteau Oceanis 46 Shoal
2.03____2336____4742____8990____0.53____Dufour 405 GL
2.15____1385____2978____5350____0.56____Elan 35, Shoal
2.00____2750____5500____9800____0.56____Moody 41
1.52____5443____8295____14514___0.57____Island Packet, IP460
2.05____2915____5976____10465___0.57____Beneteau Oceanis 46, Deep
2.35____1300____3055____5350____0.57____Elan 35, Deep
1.75____3040____5320____8940____0.60____Bavaria Vision 40, Shoal
2.10____2386____5011____7950____0.63____Dufour 40e
2.10____2260____4746____7450____0.64____Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409
2.10____2600____5460____8500____0.64____Bavaria Cruiser 40
1.80____3311____5960____8981____0.66____Saga 409
1.98____2951____5843____8800____0.66____Hunter 41 ds
2.05____2685____5504____7900____0.70____Hanse 400
2.10____4000____8400____12000___0.70____Najad 410
2.15____1850____3978____5600____0.71____Wauquiez Opium 39
1.92____3600____6912____9500____0.73____Malo 40
2.14____3040____6506____8940____0.73____Bavaria Vision 40, Deep
2.45____2469____6049____8300____0.73____Elan 410
2.18____2760____6017____8250____0.73____Delphia 40
1.88____4671____8781____11791___0.74____Rustler 42
2.10____2800____5880____8000____0.74____Luffe 43Ds
2.29____2903____6648____8892____0.75____Tartan 4000
2.25____2400____5400____7200____0.75____Solana 41
2.20____2700____5940____7800____0.76____RM 1200
2.11____3266____6891____8936____0.77____Catalina 400
1.98____2494____4938____6396____0.77____C&C 121
2.30____2736____6293____8140____0.77____Bavaria Sport
2.25____3892____8757____11300___0.77____Elan 45, Shoal
1.90____5000____9500____12170___0.78____Blue Water 420CC
2.60____3445____8957____11300___0.79____Elan 45, Deep
2.20____2995____6589____8095____0.81____Dehler 41, Standard
1.93____3340____6446____7900____0.82____Beneteau First 40
1.99____4100____8159____9988____0.82____Hallberg-Rassy 40
2.65____1930____5115____6230____0.82____Sydney 39
2.50____2600____6500____7800____0.83____Arcona 410
2.08____2400____4992____6000____0.83____Luffe 40.04
2.41____4770____11510___13779___0.84____Beneteau First 50, Standard
2.35____2760____6486____7600____0.85____Wauquiez Centurion 40s
2.80____4300____12040___13779___0.87____Beneteau First 50, Deep
2.20____2200____4840____5450____0.89____JPK 110
2.50____2520____6300____6900____0.91____Sly 42
2.40____2995____7188____7590____0.95____Dehler 41, Racing
1.80____3000____5400____5600____0.96____B Yachts, B 42, Shoal
3.00____1800____5400____5500____0.98____Pogo 12.5
2.50____2730____6825____6800____1.00____X 41 One Design
3.00____1800____5400____4800____1.13____Pogo40 Racer/Cruser
2.47____3100____7657____6400____1.20____Archambaul t A40rc
3.00____4200____12600___10500___1.20____Allures 44
2.40____3000____7200____5600____1.29____B Yachts, B 42, Deep
2.77____3352____9285____6985____1.33____Santa Cruz 43
3.60____4600____16560___11229___1.47____Marten 49, Sailing - not light displacement
3.60____4600____16560___9500____1.74____Marten 49

Last edited by Aac; 05-30-2011 at 11:21 AM.
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Chimbatete,

I've gotten to do quite a bit of sailing on a Saga 409 both in protected waters/light air as well as offshore, and I really like the boat. She's very responsive and has a nice turn of speed with the big main and 110 jib. I've only used the Code Zero a couple of times but she'll sail on a whisper with that.

She's really in her element offshore. Like any boat with a relatively flat section forward she can pound a bit to weather in lumpy seas, but otherwise I spent the whole time grinning about the boat. We turned in great passage times without ever feeling like we were working for it. In Concert has the in-mast furling main with vertical battens, and it worked great both in terms of ease of use as well as providing plenty of drive. The cockpit is roomy and well set up, with good sightlines from the wheels; a dodger integrated with the arch provides lots of shelter on watch. The aft cabin and both settees make good sea berths, and the forward facing nav station is very comfortable for working or visiting.

The interior is beautifully finished in cherry, with plenty of handrails and other places to grab (shorter sailors may want to hang some strops from the overhead handrails when heading offshore, but I'm 5'10" and had no trouble reaching them). Lots of headroom and very light in the salon; mesh shades were added to the fixed windows to reduce the heat/UV while still allowing visibility.

I have gobs of pictures and a few videos; if you're interested pm me with your e-mail address and I'll be glad to send you some.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aac View Post
I've put together a table of many of the new boats mentioned on this thread. It assumes a bulb keel. The righting moment at 90 degrees is given by Draft*Ballast. The Draft*Ballast/Weight number is what I consider important for stability (hull form neglected).

The table is sorted by Draft*Ballast/Weight. This is a very basic analysis but its no coincidence the boats considered performance boats have the highest number. Also scoring well are the so called quality boats such Hallberg-Rassy which even though is not a performance boat it is stable.

All boats mentioned are of course good; I would opinionate however and say all boats from and including Beneteau First 40 are very 'good'.

Draft, Ballast, Draft*Ballast, Weight, Draft*Ballast/Weight
1.55__ 2357____ 3653______ 8260_____ 0.44 ____Beneteau Oceanis 40
1.70__ 3240____ 5508______ 10465____ 0.53 ____Beneteau Oceanis 46 Shoal
2.03__ 2336____ 4742______ 8990_____ 0.53 ____Dufour 405 GL
2.00__ 2750____ 5500______ 9800_____ 0.56 ____Moody 41
2.05__ 2915____ 5975______ 10465____ 0.57 ____Beneteau Oceanis 46 Deep draugt
1.75__ 3040____ 5320______ 8940_____ 0.60 ____Bavaria Vision 40, Shoal
2.10__ 2386____ 5010______ 7950_____ 0.63 ____Dufour 40e
2.10__ 2260____ 4746______ 7450_____ 0.64 ____Jeanneau Sun Odyssey 409
2.10__ 2600____ 5460______ 8500_____ 0.64 ____Bavaria Cruiser 40
1.98__ 2951____ 5843______ 8800_____ 0.66 ____Hunter 41 ds
2.05__ 2685____ 5504______ 7900_____ 0.70 ____Hanse 400
2.10__ 4000____ 8400______ 12000____ 0.70 ____Najad 410
2.15__ 1850____ 3977______ 5600_____ 0.71 ____Wauquiez Opium 39
1.92__ 3600____ 6912______ 9500_____ 0.73 ____Malo 40
2.14__ 3040____ 6505______ 8940_____ 0.73 ____Bavaria Vision 40, Deep
2.45__ 2469____ 6049______ 8300_____ 0.73 ____Elan 410
2.18__ 2760____ 6016______ 8250_____ 0.73 ____Delphia 40
2.29__ 2903____ 6647______ 8892_____ 0.75 ____Tartan 4000
2.25__ 2400____ 5400______ 7200_____ 0.75 ____Solana 41
2.11__ 3266____ 6891______ 8936_____ 0.77 ____Catalina 400
1.98__ 2494____ 4938______ 6396_____ 0.77 ____C&C 121
2.30__ 2736____ 6292______ 8140_____ 0.77 ____Bavaria Sport
1.93__ 3340____ 6446______ 7900_____ 0.82 ____Beneteau First 40
1.99__ 4100____ 8159______ 9988_____ 0.82 ____Hallberg-Rassy 40
2.35__ 2760____ 6486______ 7600_____ 0.85 ____Wauquiez Centurion 40s
2.50__ 2520____ 6300______ 6900_____ 0.91 ____Sly 42
2.40__ 2995____ 7188______ 7590_____ 0.95 ____Dehler 40
1.80__ 3000____ 5400______ 5600_____ 0.96 ____B Yachts, B 42
3 00__ 1800____ 5400______ 5500_____ 0.98 ____Pogo 12.5
2.50__ 2730____ 6825______ 6800_____ 1.00 ____X 41 One Design
3.00__ 1800____ 5400______ 4800_____ 1.13 ____Pogo40 Racer/Cruser
2.47__ 3100____ 7657______ 6400_____ 1.20 ____Archambault A40rc
2.40__ 3000____ 7200______ 5600_____ 1.29 ____B Yachts, B 42
That concept seems interesting, I mean: Draft*Ballast/Weight. It was divised by you or you have seen it in another place?

Of course this only works for bulbed keels and not all bulbed keels are similar. I will try to better the data you have posted and perhaps you can later improve that board . I assume the Dehler 40 is the 41? And I think the ballast you have for it is not the one from the racing version (draft 2.40) but the ballast from the version with 2.0 draft and the weight should be 8000kg, for the cruising version. What is the Bavaria sport? Is the 40s?

The information provided is also only valid for reserve stability and not overall stability unless you are comparing boats with the same beam (for the same length).

Beam is very important to form stability and form stability is very important to generate initial stability and that is the one that is used to power the boat. That's why fast beamy boats with an average number, like the Dufour 40e, can have the stability to carry a lot of sail. Compare it for instance with the First 40, a boat with a not dissimilar performance and you are going to see that the First has a much bigger number (better reserve stability) but the sail that it can carry is about the same (same initial stability). That's because the First is a narrower boat.

Again., thanks for this contribuition, that seems to be a very interesting one

Regards

Paulo
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Old 05-30-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP
That concept seems interesting, I mean: Draft*Ballast/Weight. It was divised by you or you have seen it in another place?
I do math by trade and thought of it but its not rocket science; I'm sure many others have done something similar.

That number, lets call it Q=Draft*Ballast/Weight, is the first thing I look at in a boat. After that of course is the make/quality. The Q gives a good idea of stability and the amount of sail that the boat will allow; it also gives an idea of how it may perform as high weight is penalized. Boats like the Pogo of course also has a lot of form stability even though it has a high Q. If its useful then I will update the table. I will fix the error and I'm sure there're more errors.

Last edited by Aac; 05-30-2011 at 09:56 AM.
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Anyone seen this yet...maybe its been posted.

Its a JP54..the damn interior rotates lol

YouTube - ‪the JP 54 - the boat of the third millenium‬‏







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Last edited by Chimbatete; 05-30-2011 at 10:24 AM.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecondWindNC View Post
Chimbatete,

I've gotten to do quite a bit of sailing on a Saga 409 both in protected waters/light air as well as offshore, and I really like the boat. She's very responsive and has a nice turn of speed with the big main and 110 jib. I've only used the Code Zero a couple of times but she'll sail on a whisper with that.

She's really in her element offshore. Like any boat with a relatively flat section forward she can pound a bit to weather in lumpy seas, but otherwise I spent the whole time grinning about the boat. We turned in great passage times without ever feeling like we were working for it. In Concert has the in-mast furling main with vertical battens, and it worked great both in terms of ease of use as well as providing plenty of drive. The cockpit is roomy and well set up, with good sightlines from the wheels; a dodger integrated with the arch provides lots of shelter on watch. The aft cabin and both settees make good sea berths, and the forward facing nav station is very comfortable for working or visiting.

The interior is beautifully finished in cherry, with plenty of handrails and other places to grab (shorter sailors may want to hang some strops from the overhead handrails when heading offshore, but I'm 5'10" and had no trouble reaching them). Lots of headroom and very light in the salon; mesh shades were added to the fixed windows to reduce the heat/UV while still allowing visibility.

I have gobs of pictures and a few videos; if you're interested pm me with your e-mail address and I'll be glad to send you some.

Thanks SC, weve been bombarded with too much Euro stuff which truthfully is not all good. I just love the looks of the Hinckleys, Shannon, Morris and the Cabos, proven ocean cruisers and work of art at the same time but for a price. Its nice to see a compromise boat like this one. It seems like many people are complaining about ventilation down below due to small hatches and the joinery work not of the highest quality. But this is a boat that I can upgrade in with more experience in 3-4 years since I dont want to be stuck in Lake Ontario. And the price point of a 5 year old being in the 200k's, while steep is still reachable. Ill drop you a PM.
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Quote:
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Everyone prefers that 43s but the interior layout of the 409 seems alot brighter on more open concept and I may be wrong but seems to be a tad nimbler in light winds.
Well, that is the Saga problem. They wanted to improve in design with the 409 and they did. They hired Tony Castro a modern boat architect and he designed a new generation boat and a boat with better performance than previous Saga. The problem is that Saga sells boats mostly in America to very conservative clients that still think that older boats were better boats

Saga had said about the design intentions:

The SAGA 409 design is the first of a new series of more stylish performance orientated cruising boats. With a modern superstructure and Interior design, it is intended to respond to contemporary desires of a more ergonomic and stylish feel and blend it with all the classic requirements of a seagoing sailing yacht.

.... we asked ... about the choice of Tony Castro to design of the new 409.

"...His performance credentials are virtually unsurpassed. He's won four world championships and the Admiral's Cup under IOR, developed the new Laser sportboat, designed a world champion 6-Meter and the British America's Cup contender Blue Arrow. And he has produced some spectacular projects (like the recent 32 meter performance cruiser executed for Jongert) that combine speed, comfort, and flair.

"With the 409, we were after a more ergonomic and contemporary feel," said Poole. "In addition, Tony has a full-service office. We needed a designer to focus on performance, structure, and exterior style, but we also wanted to add to the boat’s appeal belowdecks. I felt that Tony could do that much better than we could.

"I use the metaphor of the Volvo cars," Poole continued. "Volvos from the '70s and '80s were safe, efficient, durable and performed very well, but they were boxy. The contemporary Volvos are certainly just as solid and efficient. They just look better."


And Tony Castro said about it:

"The challenge was to take the no-nonsense Saga and wrap it in a more-modern package. There's always a tension between function and style. In the end, of course, you have to blend all of the elements into a seakindly and pleasing sailboat. What it boils down to is bringing what style and design you can to what features you can without ever letting style affect use."
We must agree. From her tiger-eye portlights to her slightly-sprung sheer and saucy counter, the 409 is snappy, modern, and, well, almost sexy. It's certainly not your grandfather's performance cruiser
.

The boat has a much more modern hull if compared with the 43 (and that is not surprising since the 43 is an older design) a great interior that seems to have a very high quality (never been inside one) and their specifications on materials and building techniques are very high.

Some years back I have heard some polemics about the Saga building quality by I did not follow it and I cannot comment on it.

The boat still looks modern, considering it is a 6 years old design and its outside line has some similarities with the Elan cruiser line and with the Southerly line:

ELAN Marine - Sail - Sail Yachts

Southerly 42RST





The interior is more interesting and innovative and I like it a lot specially the layout even if I find that port hulls to give a view to the saloon are indispensable on today's interior boat design:

SAGA 409 Interior








The bad news have to do with performance: Even if this boat is fast by American standard's and to American clients, it would be slow by European standards. It has a sail area/Displacement of 17.6 while a boat like the Dufour 425 has more than 20 and even Conservative traditional boats like the Malo 40 have 19.7. The second has to do with price that is near the price of Malo or Halberg-Rassy and that makes it a boat that only few can afford.

But in the end I agree with you, this is a modern boat, a good cruiser and a quality one. The sail performance would not satisfy me but it will be enough for many and this one is also a good bluewater boat with a bulbed keel, a good B/D ratio and a good reserve stability.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-30-2011 at 04:22 PM.
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Paulo thanks.

You're the best! I want you to take me under your wing lol. The Saga 409 is a compromise boat no doubt. With price in consideration and its being built in Mississauga, Ontario where I'm a stones throw away makes it reality for me its one of the best for what it offers. Ive seen early 2000 swedish boats which still has 100ks over a newer 409s but they're mostly not available here.

I think people need to take into consideration that I may think that the Sirius Werft is the best boat but getting it here and paying all the necessary costs is just not realistic unless of course I have unlimited cashflow.

BTW this thread has gone over 100 pages and its ironic that the first boat posted (Sirius DS35) is still the best one IMHO.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aac View Post
I do math by trade and thought of it but its not rocket science; I'm sure many others have done something similar.

That number, lets call it Q=Draft*Ballast/Weight, is the first thing I look at in a boat. After that of course is the make/quality. The Q gives a good idea of stability and the amount of sail that the boat will allow;...
Not really about the overall stability neither about boat performance, unless the boats have the same size and beam. I am pretty sure about this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
...

The information provided is also only valid for reserve stability and not overall stability unless you are comparing boats with the same beam (for the same length).

Beam is very important to form stability and form stability is very important to generate initial stability and that is the one that is used to power the boat. That's why fast beamy boats with an average number, like the Dufour 40e, can have the stability to carry a lot of sail. Compare it for instance with the First 40, a boat with a not dissimilar performance and you are going to see that the First has a much bigger number (better reserve stability) but the sail that it can carry is about the same (same initial stability). That's because the First is a narrower boat.
Perhaps you can leave that number as an indicator of reserve stability and can get another formula to initial stability. That is not going to be an easy one because beam increases a lot initial stability. I have no idea of the factor but I am sure that a simple multiplication will not be enough (not even close) to account for the initial stability provided by the increase in beam.

To complicate things, more ballast and a lower ballast also increases initial stability even if in a much more moderate way.

To find a formula that will integrate all these factors will not be an easy task and will require a lot of work and a constant match with reality, using reference boat data to see if the formula works. I suppose that advanced design boat programs will have this figured out and that using them you can have a pretty good idea of the final results changing parameters. I have heard that some of those programs cost more than a boat

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 05-30-2011 at 12:40 PM.
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Quote:
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....
I think people need to take into consideration that I may think that the Sirius Werft is the best boat but getting it here and paying all the necessary costs is just not realistic unless of course I have unlimited cashflow.

BTW this thread has gone over 100 pages and its ironic that the first boat posted (Sirius DS35) is still the best one IMHO.
Well, they have sold at least one to Japan. But I would not say that it is the best boat. The best boat depends of what you want from a boat.

Even in that type of boat the Sirius 35 has very strong competition. Yes the boat has a great interior but the Nordship 36 also, in a different way, not so detailed but looking stronger. If I was on the market for one of those boats, and perhaps I would be one day, when I get really old, I would prefer the Nordship over the Sirius: it weights less 900kg and it has more 13.5m2 of sail.

I would be probably old and calmer, but I bet I would want to sail and to motor only when I cannot sail, and with the Nordship I would sail a lot more

Nordship

Nordship

Regards

Paulo
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