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  #101  
Old 07-31-2010
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Paulo,

The 36i has a separate shower, but as you say, low end bal/disp, and the performance version with its whopping 1' higher mast than the std version, why bother! other than line control genoa carrs, folding prop, and a 6.75' drat vs 6.3' draft.

Will have to check out the bavaria. There is a match 35 for sale locally, another older boat, I like the over all plan, useage design etc.

marty
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  #102  
Old 07-31-2010
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The weight needed on the ballast has to do with the deep of the keel and with the weight of the boat. They say that the Bavaria 36 will have 7T and I don't buy it. When the previous Bavaria 36 appeared on the market they first announced a weight of 4,7T (a light boat) and as the conservative kind of sailors that normally buy Bavarias got worried, the weight of the boat went mysteriously to 5,5T .

I don't believe the new boat weights more 1,5 T. It makes no sense.

Bavaria Yachtbau: Technical Data

There is many ways to measure the weight in a boat, from completely empty, to minimum sailing condition to a full load. They call it unloaded weight and I don't know what that means, but I do now that they found out that their clients like heavier boats and instead of making heavier boats (that are expensive and slow) I believe they have found a way to creatively add weight to their boats. But for the ones that know better the real weight of the boat is important because it is the only way to know how much ballast the boat has (ratio D/B), short of a stability curve.

About the Match 35, the Match series were the only boats that gave problems to Bavaria. Not the 35, but the 42, had real problems with the keels. I never heard nothing about the 35 keel, but I would be very careful in buying a a Match boat and I would inspect very carefully that keel and its support. I believe that was mainly a design problem and too narrow specifications (JJ design).

Take a look at this video with the new 45 (the boat seems too big and high to me) at the middle of it you will find an interesting interview with a NA from Farr design. He says that Bavaria is discussing with them a new cruiser racer line: ALELUIA

YouTube - bavaria 45 HD.mov

Take also a look at this one that shows the 45 interior. It seems a real upgrade if we compare it with the nonsense that was going one on the 3 or 4 last years. It is no design masterpiece but it looks very functional again and the quality seems satisfactory.

YouTube - Bavaria 45.mov

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 08-01-2010 at 08:57 AM.
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  #103  
Old 07-31-2010
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Bavarias have their detractors, mainly it seems concerning overall quality of fit and finish. The thing I least like about them is that they invariably seem to push the v-berth so far into the bow that there s bugger all room to wiggle your tootsies.

Love the aft head. Thats been a feature of Van de Stadts for decades and having lived with one on the Womboat I have nothing but praise for the concept.

Coming back to the RM1200, ther is very little not to like about that boat. I'd probably ditch the pilot berths in exchange for book shelves (lee clothes on the saloon settees will do for me).

While not a true Deck Saloon the ports in the hull seem perfectly placed for gazing out while reclining on the settees and although the head does not have a true separate shower stall it comes pretty damn close. Overall, coming in at just under 40' she is for me very very close to the perfect size for two people.
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  #104  
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This is the kind of nonsense I am talking about:



Can you believe it? Somebody should have told the Architect that this was not a house but a boat and explain her the diferences (it was a woman)....Jesus .

Bav51_Kueche05_01-2.jpg picture by Paulo_Carvalho - Photobucket

There was a lot of dealers completely pissed with this madness. It seems that had to do with changing the traditional image they had. It was a shoot on the foot. They seem to be on the right way now.

Yes, I could have been lucky, but the image I have from Bavarias is that they let a lot of details for you to do later ...nothing important and nothing you can not do, important things like structural reinforcements are reliable and well done. Things like a kevlar protection on the hull on the impact zone, the way the shrouds are fixed, that kind of things are solid and well done. Well done, comparativelly with the competition that are Jeanneaus and Oceanis, not with yachts that cost 2 or 3 times more.

About the RM 1200: sitting on the chart table you will have a good view to the outside and I believe that with the waves you will see the horizon. You can pilot the boat from there. If you have any doubt you can just stand for a moment and you will have a clear view all around.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 08-01-2010 at 09:00 AM.
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  #105  
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Van de Stadt - Winner 12.20

Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
...
Nemier was once very interested in the VDS34. While I do love our old girl the 1060 is a much more advanced design. Not surprising, given the age of the VDS.
Cheers, Andrew.
Today Van de Stadt is not a top NA firm. Ricus Van de Stadt (a great naval architect) died in 1999 and stop working in 1978. He made a lot of sucessful race boats, back in the 50's and 60's.

From 1978 the firm belongs to his partner and the design quality is not the same. Not that the boats are bad (they are seaworthy) but most of them are not good lucking and they are not invovative as were the ones from Ricus.

Van de Stadt Design

On the 90's they designed for Dehler (when the Dehlers were ugly ) and today the only production boat they design is the Winner. The winner 12.20 is a bit nicer looking than the rest of the line. It is a good boat, (expensive) but its design looks dated (outside and hull). I believe that the very good interior and the overall quality would have deserved a better looking boat. I have been inside that one and I can tell you that it has one of the best 40 cruiser racers interior. Quality and design: Just beautiful and functional, It should be a pleasure to live in that boat.

Winner Yachts - Way Ahead - Sailing




Today Van de Stadt is best known to the home made boat builders market. They sell plans of seworthy boats that are easy to build.

But there is someone in that cabinet that can design nice boats, big custom aluminum boats.

You have posted a photo of one of them, on post 156 (the boat that are behind the Bestwind).

Most of them are built by the same company that makes the Bestwind, they are called Stadtships:

Van de Stadt sailing yachts - K&M Yachtbuilders



Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:40 AM.
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  #106  
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Paulo,

Looked up that B36, boy is that going tobe a heavy son of a gun if the specs on the Canada/W US importers site is correct, something like 15500 lbs! Here I thought the J36i at 12K lbs was heavy! I do like the ballast ratio, or at least the upper 4K lb amount. Now if they could put that puppy on a major diet! drop some 4000 lbs, add about 100sft of sail area.......I might like it!

At least with the Hanse 375, it is listed at 15Klbs, it has 900# of SA IIRC from specs, along with an upper 4K lbs ballast amount too! you have the SA to move the thing. It does have the self tacking jib, along with an option for a bigger HS for when racing. The ST jib would be nice when it is just spouse and I. I do not like to say she does not help, but really only steers, other handling issues, it is up to me.

I do like the epoxy hull option for the Hanse's, I am recalling that dropping the lbs a bit, not sure if the price addition would be worth it or not.

Dehler has a 35RS, the old 34, now 35 with Hanse buying them out, they did some lighter core desings with parts and peices, dropped the boat wt some 1100 lbs! That was a quick boat to begine with. That could be another option of I get some money in thebank. ALtho really only one dealer in the US< in chicago, ie inportor.

Looks like some manufactures are coming out with some new designs, will be interesting to see what occurs over the next 12-24 months as some redo their lines.

Marty
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  #107  
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Oh yes, those StadShips are nice and with KMY building them the quality would undoubtedly be superb.

Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger's Hawk is a nice example of a non KYM Van de Stadt. She's a VDS Samoa 47.







The last pic is the VDS34. That's a sister ship of ours as I don't have any pics of Raven under sail.

Of course the Dehler (DS41) on my wishlist is not a Van de Stadt but a Judel- Vrolijk. Pity. We'd both be quite happy to have another VDS after Raven.
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  #108  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post

The last pic is the VDS34. That's a sister ship of ours as I don't have any pics of Raven under sail.

Of course the Dehler (DS41) on my wishlist is not a Van de Stadt but a Judel- Vrolijk. Pity. We'd both be quite happy to have another VDS after Raven.
That's a good looking boat. It was a steel one?

I don't think Judel-Vrolijk is a worst Cabinet than Van de Stadt. Just compare both portfolios.

judel-vrolijk.com

Van de Stadt Design

Regards

Paulo
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  #109  
Old 08-02-2010
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Hello Together!

I am following your discussion with great interest! There are some great
designs around and I am thinking about what ship I prefer for a long
term trip with family which should start in 3 years latest. Pogo 12.50
is one of my favorites (even though difficult to finance)
I have made a 1200 miles non-stop Pogo 40 trip and found it very
exciting - however quite bumpy.
I just got the message that the first Pogo 12.50 prototype will get
tested mid of this month...

There have been some interesting questions in this discussions. One is
about the tillers and I like to know what you think about the fact, that
Pogo 12.50 seems to come with a single tiller. I fear this might be a
major disadvantage.

SeanRW asked some interesting questions as well. I can say something
regarding this:
Provision for anchoring is no problem for the bigger Pogo's. A chain is
ok and e.g. the new Pogo 12.50 is offered with electric windlass as an
option.
A bimini is available as well for this boats, however I would be curious
how it looks like.
For Pogo 12.50 the (short term) storage for a dinghy should be the rear
end of the VERY spacious cockpit

Another question mentioned here is about the missing thermal insulation
for the very light boats. Does somebody have experience with this in
very hot regions? (In cold weather you just get condensation
everywhere...)

Regards,
Ulf
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Pogo 12.50

Ulf,

You are very welcome to this thread . I will share some comments about the 12.50, but it seems to me that you have more to offer to this thread about the Pogo than me. So please post your detailed comments about that 1200 mile voyage with the Pogo 40:

Typical speeds with different kind of winds (upwind and downwind), sailing comfort (explain better the bumby comment: upwind? downwind? with short wave? with any waves?). It was the racing or the cruising version?

Regarding the single tiller (all the other Pogos have dual tillers) it seems to me like a way of clearing space on the cockpit. Of course the tiller has to have a big stick (extension) to be handle from both sides of the boat. I don't know if that will make it less sensible (it should at some extent). I believe I would prefer the dual tiller system. If it works better on the racing boats I cannot understand why they have opted for a single one. Perhaps price contention

Regarding the insulation, this boat is made with a double skin with expanded polyester as a core (including the deck). Expanded polyester is a very good insulator. I don't know how thick it is that core, but it will offer a far better insulation than a single skin. If you are interested in a cruiser-racer, I doubt the insulation on one of those would be much better than in The Pogo (maybe in some expensive boats, like X yachts or Grand-Soleil that have also dual skin hulls and also interior surfaces with foam behind).

How about the insulation on that 40 Pogo? I mean that comment of yours:
Condensation everywhere is related with that experience?

I believe you get condensation in small spaces if the interior is a lot warmer than the outside if there are people inside (that creates humidity) and there is no ventilation. I believe the answer to that is one of those Webasto pulse air heater coupled with a good air circulation. If you are in a car without ventilation in winter you will get condensation in a very short period of time. But if you connect the heater (blowing hot air), the condensation will go away quickly.

Pogo has an air heater of that kind among the few options

I am waiting for the stability curve, when I have it, I will post it here. I believe that the boat will have a decent AVS and a good reserve stability.

I have received information about the different ballasts and keels. Has it was to be expected all give a similar stability to the boat (RM curve).

The boat can come with a swing keel ( 1,2/3m) with a ballast of 2250kg, a fixed keel with 3m and a ballast of 1830kg and a fixed keel with 2.20m and a ballast of 2250kg.

Waiting for your comments on the Pogo 40





Pogo

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-22-2013 at 11:44 AM.
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