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  #1101  
Old 06-01-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
The boats have the same ballast but the Varianta has a deeper keel (2.23 to 2.16)
Draft is the same as 430 MkII. Sure it will be faster due to weight difference. Basically 44 is just striped out 430. Hanse 430 - Specs -

But will 44 be any faster than race ready 430? Team Minnic and you can buy this one 2008 Hanse 430E Competition Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -
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  #1102  
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Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
Draft is the same as 430 MkII. Sure it will be faster due to weight difference. Basically 44 is just striped out 430. Hanse 430 - Specs -

But will 44 be any faster than race ready 430?

Team Minnic and you can buy this one 2008 Hanse 430E Competition Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -
Of course not. But that is a factory racing boat. Nothing to do with the Hanse you can buy. I have talked once with the guy that raced that boat and I know the sort of mods they have done to it, including a completely new keel with 2.3 draft. They say on the add:

The HANSE 430E COMPETITION has been modified for races with a modified keel and 2,30m draught and a modified rudder. The hull, deck and superstructure have been built in foam and epoxid.

They say on team Minnic:

The internationally renowned design team Judel / Vrolijk & Co. (Rolf Vrolijk is responsible, inter alia, for the design of two-time America's Cup winner Alinghi) analyzed in 2007, taking as base the Hanse 430e developed a competition boat. Compared to the series crucial changes were made in yacht mast, keel, rudder, sail area and the bracing and materials . Rudder and mast are made of high-tech material carbon. The interior is made of laminated veneer and sandwich plates. In comparison to the standard production yacht a weight reduction of about 1.3 up to 1,5 tons was achieved and that permitted a 20% increased sail area. The deck layout has been optimized for maneuver for an eight-member crew. Only high-quality hardware is used, both in terms of race and fittings ....

The reason that factory racing Hanse will be faster than the Varianta is the same that will make Varianta faster than a "normal" Hanse 430: Less weight, same ballast, deeper keel = more righting moment, a stiffer and more powerful boat, able to carry more sail.

Team Minnic

Besides that deep draft keel (close to the one from varianta) that racing Hanse weights 500 kg less than the Varianta. I guess you can still improve Varianta weight for racing striping it a bit but you will never get near the weight of the factory racing Hanse. That is a fast boat that has won some races. Hanse used it to advertise the 430 (as if the two boats were the same ).

But look at the price: That's a 2008 beaten race boat (lot's of races) and it costs almost the double as a new Varianta

2008 Hanse 430E Competition Sail New and Used Boats for Sale -

There are other brands with IMS or ORC race boats derived from the Standard boats but that boats have little in common with the standard boats, except the shape of the hull. That Hanse does not even have a freezer or a gas stove. It is a pure racing boat, not a cruiser racer.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 06-01-2011 at 05:33 AM.
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  #1103  
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Originally Posted by mitiempo View Post
The Saga 409 is nice but I prefer the older Saga 43 by Bob Perry.
Brian, let me be clear on this. The Saga 409 has a more modern under-body and will be proportionally faster but even if I can appreciate that, I like more the design brief of the 43. Meaning that the 409 is not only modern but it is designed to satisfy main stream cruisers. They are most coastal cruisers and want lots of light and height in the saloon and that means a high free-board and a more "fat" design. That does not mean that the 409 is not a bluewater boat, just that it has some features that were not designed taking that into consideration.

The 43 is an old school boat and it is designed more for speed and bluewater sailing. It is a design brief that you can rarely find these days and the reason is that not only because those boats are expensive to build but also there are few sailors really interested in that program and available to pay the difference and get a boat with less interior space and less light. A modern boat with a modern hull for the same design brief would be for instance the Xc-42.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 06-01-2011 at 06:56 AM.
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  #1104  
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Hey Paulo,

You've given us so many boats to drool over and you seem to be enthusiastic with them all. So given half a million$$ (350keuros) give or take, whats top 10 buy on your list? Looks, speed, off-shore, service, wife (kids), re-sale value taken into consideration.

Thanks
Chuck
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  #1105  
Old 06-02-2011
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Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
Hey Paulo,

You've given us so many boats to drool over and you seem to be enthusiastic with them all. So given half a million$$ (350keuros) give or take, whats top 10 buy on your list? Looks, speed, off-shore, service, wife (kids), re-sale value taken into consideration.

Thanks
Chuck
Chuck,

It does not work that way. I love boats and I look at them not only under my personal perspective (my dream boat for the program I want to have and for my particular tastes) but under a more global perspective where the criteria is the design quality for any relevant program and price target, not only mine.

Probably I can do this quite easily because I am an Architect and I am used to do this all the time. I mean the houses I design, except the one I have design to myself, are not my idea of an ideal house for me (aesthetics and kind of live/program they provide) but someone else's dream. I also have found out with my own experience that our dreams, in what regards a boat or a house, vary with time and there are not a "right" dream. The good boat or the good house are the one that completely satisfies you and what satisfies you may not be what satisfies me.

Independently of any particular kind of dream/program it is possible to associate people in some major groups that have the same vision of live and boating and that want the same program in a boat or in a house. Regarding boats, these groups represents the market. Different builders try to satisfy the needs and dreams of different groups of sailors with appropriately designed boats (of course, each of these groups tend to find that they are the only ones that want the right boat and that the others just don't know nothing about sailboats, but that's another story ).

On this thread I try to talk about new market boats that are interesting not to any particular group but that are interesting to any of those groups, taking into account design quality and the satisfaction of each group dreams and desires.

That's why you hear me talk about a lot of enthusiasm about different boats. I guess that my own professional perspective make me capable of really appreciate boats that don't satisfy my own program but that are incredible good at satisfying other programs.

You have always to take into account that a boat is always a compromise. I would want a boat with a deck saloon view, good looking as a classic boat, with the speed of a racing trimaran, with a seaworthiness of a purposely designed high latitudes blue-water boat, with the interior quality of a top Swedish boat at the price of an inexpensive mass produced boat

Get my drift? This boat will never exist. It is up to you and to all of us to try to understand what is the (possible) compromise that will satisfy most of our dreams, desires and sailing program and I hope this thread helps with that.

I have said along the thread what is my sailing program and what is my ideal compromise (type of boat) to the money I have. Let me say that unless you have a lot of money, money will always be a central part of the equation and many times discounts over the standard price will decide the choice between similar typed boats. The ideal boat for what I want would not be the same if I had less money neither would be the same If I had more money, but the important is to get a boat, because without a boat there will not be a boating life.

And not even that is true, what is really important is sailing and enjoying cruising or racing. There are many from whom just does not make any sense to have a boat but that loves sailing. If you have only three weeks holidays in a year it would make a lot more sense to charter a boat. But even charter boats can vary a lot. Yes, the fat ones with lot's of space for the ones that give more importance to the live aboard than sailing are the large majority (as the sailors that prefer that even if the say otherwise) but you can also find other types for the ones that gives more importance to sailing.

Regarding your question, put more 100 000€ and for my sail pleasures and cruising program, I would chose a Dragonfly 35, but let me tell you that the sail pleasure in my case counts more than the space provided, not in quality (space quality is important for me), but in m2. But as anyway I don't have the 450 000€ that cost a Dragonfly 35 nor the 300 000€ that costs an used one, that is pretty irrelevant to me, as it should be my own choice to you. Only by a very unprovable accident would your sailing program, sailing tastes and most frequent cruising grounds, be the same.

YouTube - ‪Dragonfly 35 Trimaran‬‏

Dragonfly Trimarans by Quorning Boats of Denmark | DRAGONFLY 35 Presentation

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 06-02-2011 at 09:05 AM.
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  #1106  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
You have always to take into account that a boat is always a compromise. I would want a boat with a deck saloon view, good looking as a classic boat, with the speed of a racing trimaran, with a seaworthiness of a purposely designed high latitudes blue-water boat, with the interior quality of a top Swedish boat at the price of an inexpensive mass produced boat
o
I want one of these too! Oh yeah, I will need that on the used market actually at the price of a 1970s beater!

Seriously though, great post Paulo! We have been looking into our dream boat now for about a year and it has been interesting to see our needs and means really begin to change what our original ideas were. We have now realized that our plan will really be one of coastal cruising, no real "bluewater" for the first few years, likely cold weather for much of the time, and often light or medium winds. In other words, our cruising grounds (Prince William Sound and Resurrection Bay, Alaska) and our available time will make a huge impact on choices. What we want from a boat is so different than much of what we read online where many users are from the east coast USA.

Our next stage is sailing as many boats as possible that are available in our area. See if our reality matches our imagination. This thread has been great in getting the thinking started on what is possible out there. I also agree that for us, the Sirius boats are just amazing. The concept behind the layout of the interior being "connected" to the outside is EXACTLY what we THINK we would want for spending time in the beauty that is Alaska. As we could spend much time inside at anchor, not being down in a cave would be just the thing. Not exactly what we would want in the Bahamas on the other hand.

Thanks for the great thread. I have been lurking for a long time now and have learned so much. We over on this side of the pond wouldn't be exposed to many of these boats without it. Even those of us without the funds to buy a new Sirius or such, it informs about design features that we should hunt out. It lead us to Cooper, CSY, etc that do meet our 2 year budget plans and are available in our area. Keep on keeping on please. Great reading!
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Paulo,

Thanks for the post, lots of insights as always. You really nailed it down from whats fantasy to whats real and your needs. You're doing us all a favor. Of course as for the dream, the Dragonfly 35 is as good as it gets even at that price except for the room below. Thats why I preferred the DF 1200 but like you said, it needs updating.

First, note that I sail out of Lake Ontario and most of the boats you posted would make sense (cruiser/racer type). In hindsight, looking at boats like the PSC's, IP's, Shannons and older boats like the Tayanas and Crealocks wouldn't make sense.

Heres my wish list,

Sirius 38ds, a bit bigger than the 35. Cant afford it but that cabin view is the greatest for a sailboat this size.

The Luffe 40.04. Thing is fast but looks solid (moreso than the X-yachts) seems ready to cross oceans anytime. Beautiful but also must be unaffordable.

The new X-Yachts 42c. Ill have to sell my house and proceeds would be the 1st payment of a 6 month payment plan.

The Dragonfly 35. Only if it were bigger, its the perfect sailboat (mono, Multi, tri) even with the price tag.

The Malo 37-41. This would be the sensible choice and it can be had reasonably used. Perfect cruising boat with performance here.

Morris M42. I'll be happy daysailing forever if someone gives it to me. Hands down the most beautiful boat 42ft and under maybe ever. The type of purchase you indulge yourself to by using inheritance money.

But the boat that I can realistically have is the RM 1200. If the build quality is there, with its price, what more could you ask for? Beauty, Fast, Fun, wife, kids, liveaboard, regattas, coastal, even ocean if that becomes a reality. The interior is a love it of hate it and ive seen some set ups, its awesome!

Chuck
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Last edited by Chimbatete; 06-02-2011 at 06:31 PM.
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  #1108  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlaskaMC View Post
I want one of these too! Oh yeah, I will need that on the used market actually at the price of a 1970s beater!

Seriously though, great post Paulo! We have been looking into our dream boat now for about a year and it has been interesting to see our needs and means really begin to change what our original ideas were. We have now realized that our plan will really be one of coastal cruising, no real "bluewater" for the first few years, likely cold weather for much of the time, and often light or medium winds. In other words, our cruising grounds (Prince William Sound and Resurrection Bay, Alaska) and our available time will make a huge impact on choices. What we want from a boat is so different than much of what we read online where many users are from the east coast USA.

Our next stage is sailing as many boats as possible that are available in our area. See if our reality matches our imagination. This thread has been great in getting the thinking started on what is possible out there. I also agree that for us, the Sirius boats are just amazing. The concept behind the layout of the interior being "connected" to the outside is EXACTLY what we THINK we would want for spending time in the beauty that is Alaska. As we could spend much time inside at anchor, not being down in a cave would be just the thing. Not exactly what we would want in the Bahamas on the other hand.

Thanks for the great thread. I have been lurking for a long time now and have learned so much. We over on this side of the pond wouldn't be exposed to many of these boats without it. Even those of us without the funds to buy a new Sirius or such, it informs about design features that we should hunt out. It lead us to Cooper, CSY, etc that do meet our 2 year budget plans and are available in our area. Keep on keeping on please. Great reading!
Alaska, Thanks for your nice words.

There is not by accident that the type of boats that you are looking for are almost all made in the North of Europe (cold climate), I mean, the ones that are still in production. I could post more 2 or 3 boats that you would find interesting but that have in common to be very expensive and almost impossible to find on the used market.

Instead I am going to post about a boat that I like a lot (have been inside a couple of times) and a boat you can find on the used market at about 150 000€ (2003/2004). That includes VAT and I think you can recover VAT (17%) if you buy it in Europe.

It does not look like but this is a very seaworthy boat and strangely a relatively fast boat especially if there are medium to strong winds. And I say strangely because it does not look the kind of boat that can do well on offshore races but I know that some cruisers had managed some quite amazing results with it.

I had read some tests on this boat and the results were also surprising. I would say the boat had surprised the testers. I am talking about tests on magazines that I consider reliable like the British YachtingMonthly and the German "Yacht".

So if this one has enough space for you (it has a very good storage for a 35ft) I would recommend that you have a good look at it and perhaps a test sail. Even if it is now too expensive in some years the price is going to come down...but not much because these are great quality boats and the value on the used market is high

As a bonus you have the swinging keel (a ballasted one) that permits this boat to seat on the sand and more important, at least for me, it can anchor really close to land and that permits a much better protection in a blow.


























Southerly 35RS
Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 06-02-2011 at 07:04 PM.
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  #1109  
Old 06-02-2011
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I'd love to see what a Pogo looks like. Can someone post a pic or a link please?
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Old 06-02-2011
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Voiles et Voiliers : Croisière - Feuilletage - Croisière / Essai : Course croisière - Pogo 10.50 (Structures / Finot Conq)

Bob.. PCP has indexed large parts of this thread at Post#1... this link is from page 3, there may be others.
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