Interesting Sailboats

[G1000]

Originally Posted by PCP

Now, these boats are a lot more interesting . Don't you want to give it a try?

1) Finn Flyer 36
2) Salona 37
3) J/109
4) (T-34)

[PCP]

Originally Posted by G1000

1) Finn Flyer 36
2) Salona 37
3) J/109
4) (T-34)

That's right on top Congratulations.

You even got that mysterious light blue and white boat, the T-34. Are you Italian?

You let go the blue one but that's unfair, we can only see it on the start and then she moves away because it is bigger and faster. We can see it crossing behind the T34 in second plan but only once. It is a Luffe 40.04.

YouTube - Sailing - R36 training- Gothenburg - Sweden

What a colection of fast and beautiful boats .

The most beautiful is the Fin Flyer but it also seems to be the slower and the fastest of the 34/37ft boats is the Salona, aluminum mast and all But the boat really needs a remake because it seems dated compared with the others...dated but not slower. That's why the guys from Salona say that they don't need to change that hull

Tomorrow I will post about the T34, a beautiful boat as you know. The one in the movie has paintings that don't help to bring that beauty out.

Regards

Paulo

[G1000]

Originally Posted by PCP

You even got that mysterious light blue and white boat, the T-34. Are you Italian?

You don't need to be Italian to be capable to use Google then you know sail number Check this photo stream Flickr: blursailing's Photostream Starting from page 14 you will find pics from this video.

Originally Posted by PCP

You let go the blue one but that's unfair, we can only see it on the start and then she moves away because it is bigger and faster. We can see it crossing behind the T34 in second plan but only once. It is a Luffe 40.04.

Oh now I see SWE 4004 on mainsail and it's Josephine Luffe 40.04. Strange at 0:20 it's genoa number SW 30.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by G1000

You don't need to be Italian to be capable to use Google then you know sail number

Oh now I see SWE 4004 on mainsail and it's Josephine Luffe 40.04. Strange at 0:20 it's genoa number SW 30.

Check this photostream Flickr: blursailing's Photostream

That's cheating

All the boats except the T34 were posted on this thread. Well not the J 109 but we talked a lot about it....and I have a very good reason to know well Josephine (that luffe) I already sailed on that boat

Regards

Paulo

[JAndersB]

T-34.

Regards,
Anders

[daviid]

Hi Folks

I have been trying to get my head around boat safety for some time now. More specifically this includes a study of the particular boats stability curve and obtaining the STIX rating. This has not been an easy task to be honest. Manufacturers have asked me to contact the dealer who has asked me to contact the maufacturer and so we go. When I have managed to get some numbers, they have not been the same as those I have found from various boat reports including the ones published by Practical Boat Owner and Yachting Monthly. I am also aware that there seems to be no universal standard for determining the stability curve as far as the manufacturers go; they seem to rely on a computer program which in turn is reliant on a whole host of different variables for each manufacturer. The net result is that making comparison of each boats stability characteristices and in particular their published AVS is pretty pointless unless there is a standard for determining how these numbers need to be determined. I am also aware the the ORC determine their own AVS on account of these defficiencies by subjecting each boat to an incline test and then running their own computer program. Even if there test isn't better, at least this way each boat can be compared which brings me to my 2 questions:

1. An AVS of 118 seems to be the magic number certainly if one wants to do the Sydney to Hobart race. Whose AVS is this, the boat maufacturers or the ORC? If this is the right number, then this would exclude the X38c, the Salona 37 and the Dufour 40e but would include the Beneteau Oceanis 37 and the Jeanneau 36i. mmmm, I don't think so ... What is the right number? Comments?

2. If there is no way of getting meaningful numbers that are measured in a similar way for the stability curve and for the AVS, then what boat design characteritics are necessary to ensure that a particlar boat is safe? L/B, B/D , the area below the x-axis on the stability curve spring to mind. What else should be considered?

Sometimes it feels like the proverbial never ending rabbit hole when it comes to assessing stability and therefore safety.

David

[PCP]

Originally Posted by daviid

Hi Folks

I have been trying to get my head around boat safety for some time now. More specifically this includes a study of the particular boats stability curve and obtaining the STIX rating. This has not been an easy task to be honest. Manufacturers have asked me to contact the dealer who has asked me to contact the maufacturer and so we go. When I have managed to get some numbers, they have not been the same as those I have found from various boat reports including the ones published by Practical Boat Owner and Yachting Monthly. I am also aware that there seems to be no universal standard for determining the stability curve as far as the manufacturers go; they seem to rely on a computer program which in turn is reliant on a whole host of different variables for each manufacturer. The net result is that making comparison of each boats stability characteristices and in particular their published AVS is pretty pointless unless there is a standard for determining how these numbers need to be determined. I am also aware the the ORC determine their own AVS on account of these defficiencies by subjecting each boat to an incline test and then running their own computer program. Even if there test isn't better, at least this way each boat can be compared which brings me to my 2 questions:

1. An AVS of 118 seems to be the magic number certainly if one wants to do the Sydney to Hobart race. Whose AVS is this, the boat maufacturers or the ORC? If this is the right number, then this would exclude the X38c, the Salona 37 and the Dufour 40e but would include the Beneteau Oceanis 37 and the Jeanneau 36i. mmmm, I don't think so ... What is the right number? Comments?

2. If there is no way of getting meaningful numbers that are measured in a similar way for the stability curve and for the AVS, then what boat design characteritics are necessary to ensure that a particlar boat is safe? L/B, B/D , the area below the x-axis on the stability curve spring to mind. What else should be considered?

Sometimes it feels like the proverbial never ending rabbit hole when it comes to assessing stability and therefore safety.

David

You are absolutely correct and I never brought it here because it is really a dirty and complex business and I don't want to discuss it on this thread because it goes away from its subject. You can open a thread about it but I really think it is a too technical and polemic subject to be discussed on an open forum.

But I can give you my opinion about it:

The stability curves are made by the designers and as you say they are made using different programs and probably even different parameters. The only one that is equal for all is the one for ORC, that is also the only one based in real inclining experiments, and therefore the only one that provides comparable results. But as you know not all boats race in ORC so you cannot have those stability curves for all boats.

The ones you have for all boats are the ones used to certify the boats and these ones are clearly not comparable. Some show results that are very close to the ones from the ORC curves others results that are much better.

You don't know also if the curves that are used by most designers (and that give better results than the ORC stability curves) are closer to reality than ORC curves.

Also you have to know that there are two stability curves, one with minimum load another with maximum load. With maximum load you will have a bigger stability but a lower AVS. They used to certify the boats only the minimum load curve, than the two and now I think just a mix of the two (it is not the curves that are used but the data taken from the curves).

I completely disregard STIX number. It would give me a lot of trouble to explain why but I would say that I consider that some factors that have importance on its determination don't make sense. For instance the sail area is a factor that diminish STIX. If I am in bad weather if I have a third reef and a stay sail I would be in much better shape than another boat that has an overall smaller sail area but (as most) has only a second reef (with more area than the third reef from the other boat) and a furled genoa. The sail area counts big time for the Stix number.

If I don't have ORC stability curves to compare, between two boats with similar hull characteristics, similarly sized cabins, with similar draft and similar bulbed keels I assume the one with more Ballast/weight ratio would be the one with a better stability curve and a better AVS.

Regarding boats with different hull shapes, a many year's interest for the subject and after analyzing hundreds of different stability curves I have a pretty good idea of the differences in stability curves between different types of hulls, to give me an approximated idea how a beamy hull can compare with a narrow hull.

The issue is so polemic that my favorite magazine, the German "Yacht" that I believe it was the first to publish stability curves, stop publishing them five or six year's ago. I still like to see the stability curves provided by the designer on the British magazines but I really think they should warn the readers about what is going on. They also publish the curves and after completely disregard the provided data on the boat tests, or confound GZ curves with RM curves. I have already call their attention to the subject and posted on their forum about it with no avail. I guess it is a too hot subject .

Regarding stability is convenient not to forget that we are only talking about static stability and it has been shown that dynamic stability is a more important factor to seaworthiness than static stability. I have my opinion about the subject (I will not discuss it here) but experience shows for instance that a boat like the OVNI 435, one of the boats more extensively used offshore and made in large numbers has a lousy static stability curve and an unblemished seaworthiness record and that the mini ocean racers that have a very small RM curve (because they are very small and light) have an impressive safety record taking into account the number of transats and even a circumnavigation.

Regards

Paulo

[PCP]

As promised, let's talk about the T 34, a beautiful Italian boat and for such an exotic boat not a very expensive on. They advertise it at 125 000 € a bit more than what costs a Salona 37 that has a better cruising interior, is bigger and faster in light winds, but both polar curves are very similar and this one is only a 34ft.

The boat had won the 2011 prize for boat of the year for the main Slovenian sailing magazine and it is convenient not to forger that Slovenia is the home of Elan.

It weights only 3700kg, has 67m2 of sail area and can carry a 100m2 asymmetric spynacker . It has to be fast and it's certainly beautiful with a great cruising interior for a boat that is also a racing boat. A very interesting one no doubt. Comments please?






















Here you have a movie from the Rolex middle sea race (a major race) where the boat won first place on the two crewed division. The movie only began at 3.15 (photos first) and I cannot understand why they are sailing downwind under main alone???. Perhaps they didn't have a spinnacker for medium to strong wind? With a spinnaker and main it seems to me that the boat would be much more balanced...and much more fast.

YouTube - Rolex/T-Yachts .wmv

T-Yachts :: Welcome to our website

[PCP]

Originally Posted by JAndersB

T-34.

Regards,
Anders

Did't saw your post. Off course, you are right

Regards

Paulo

[PCP]

More news and some drawings on a very interesting boat, a modern boat made by a very conservator shipyard, or at least, it was. Times are changing

The new Maxi 11.0:

" You are a demanding bugger, at least when it comes to sailing. You enjoy the speed, and to fly on the downwind at double digit pace. Most of all, you get pleasure from passing the other yachts being the first to reach your destination. But once you’re there, waiting for the others, you want to lead a life in comfort.

Thirty-seven feet is enough to get standing headroom, nice saloon, a twin sink galley, spacious heads and shower compartment and quarters for 4 + 2 people.

Then the new Maxi 11 is a perfect fit. She is super fast, easy to handle – and even though you can sense her affinity to the Volvo Ocean Race Monsters she is surprisingly comfortable below deck.

The Iconic Maxi 11 will be designed with a set up for short-handed, or even single handed manoeuvring. A well thought out on-deck concept will give you the advantage of sailing almost as fast with a two crew, as with a full crew of four.

The masthead hoisted Code 0 Gennaker and bow with extendable carbon fibre bowsprit will give you sensational beam reach and downwind sailing characteristics. In addition you will get easier use, faster hoisting and more frequent gennaker sailing.

This state of the art 37 feet sailing yacht will have the same functions and performance as a larger yacht, yet it will be easier to handle.

..the new Maxi11 is engineered to push the boundaries of modern design and utilise the latest building practices to create an aggressive high performance sailing yacht that is technically consistent, ...an evolution hardly seen before in high performance sport yachts.
...

This state of the art 37 feet yacht will have a longer waterline inspired by the best solutions from racing yachts. With stiffer and stronger advanced composites hull, wider stern, pointier bow, and extended bowsprit with maximized sail areas to match, the Maxi11 will deliver exceptional upwind performance in all conditions with exciting double digit speed downwind and reaching.

The sharper bow and single rudder design enables more enjoyable upwind tacking.

In short, people will stare and heads will turn when they get a short glimpse as you catch up along side and then swiftly leave them behind while you manoeuvre your Maxi 11 at ease with a crew of one or two.

...So if you really enjoy high speed sailing in comfort and don’t mind to irritate people, sign up to make history once again.

Nowadays, it’s the speed, not the size that counts".