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  #1171  
Old 06-18-2011
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Paulo,

Sorry about the winner. I changed the sizes.

But back to my original question, why would I take a Sabre 426 or a Tartan 4100 who has a capsize ratio not much better than a faster SO 409 or an Opium for significantly more $$? Is the build quality that much better in these American boats?

I see the Sabre 426 in the half a million range same as other heavy performance cruisers such as the Malo 40 or a Najad 41. Am I missing something here?
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  #1172  
Old 06-20-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
Paulo,

...

But back to my original question, why would I take a Sabre 426 or a Tartan 4100 who has a capsize ratio not much better than a faster SO 409 or an Opium for significantly more $$? Is the build quality that much better in these American boats?

I see the Sabre 426 in the half a million range same as other heavy performance cruisers such as the Malo 40 or a Najad 41. Am I missing something here?
I have tried avoid to answer that. I don't want to hurt any sensibilities .

One thing we can take for granted is that for each new American model that appear in the market there are 20 new (or more) European ones. It seems that Americans just turned to motorboats and that in Europe there are a lot more people buying new sailboats. This creates a difference in competitiveness that tends to improve the design of European boats in a faster way than in America. There are also a much bigger number of major boat designers and naval cabinets specialized in sailboats.

Generally each new model is better (and sails faster) than the previous model and each model is substituted in about 4 or 5 years and has a tight competition of several boat manufacturers working for the same sail segment. It is very rare that the best model of a particular market sector stays the same for more than three years, at least on the main market sector.

Saying this I do not find your comparison between the Tartan 4100 and the SO 409 accurate, particularly in what regards stability:

The Tartan has a B/D of 33% the Jeanneau 30%. Both boats have ballasted bulbs. The one from jeanneau seems bigger, meaning that most of the ballast is there, the Tartan seems to have the ballast distributed by all the keel with some of the ballast on a bulb but it is difficult to say because I never saw a Tartan 4100. Anyway I think that is more than compensated by the differences of draft, 2.1 to the Jeanneau, 2.29 to the Tartan. The Tartan will be a slightly more seaworthy and stiff boat but the Jeanneau will be faster. The Tartan has more 5m2 of sail that will not be capable to contra-balance the huge difference in weight : more than 1400kg.

I find the Jeanneau better designed over all: It has a brand new hull, top of the crop in what regards performance and stability, the Tartan uses a several years old hull taken from another boat (C&C). The Jeanneau superstructure looks very sleek and modern, the one from Tartan looks 10 year's old. On the interior the Jeanneau is also better designed but the quality of the materials are much better on the Tartan.

Fact is that by the quality of its materials (and its prices) the Tartan is in another category competing with boats like the Halberg Rassy, Najad or Malo.

As you probably know Tartan has been afflicted in the last years with many quality problems. They have changed owners and I would like to see it raising to it's former glory but I doubt that it will manage it without better designed boats. As I have said in a previous post, I liked more the previous 40ft model : It looked like a nice classic boat that could sail well. This one looks like a 10 year old "modern" boat.

Regarding Tartan sales in America I suspect they are on the low side, on Europe the boat don't sell. In 2008 the European importer has imported a 43 and the boat is not sold yet:

2008 Tartan 4300 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

and I bet they will make a huge discount on that boat

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 06-20-2011 at 09:21 AM.
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  #1173  
Old 06-20-2011
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Something to learn: A wipe-out on a J 109

The big question to chose a fast boat: best downwind or upwind performance? Best means not only faster but means also safer and easier, specially with a solo sailor and that is very important.

These are fantastic images. I don't know much about sailing with a crew, so you guys that race with a crew please correct at will, but what I think it happened was this:

Nice sailing, not too much wind. A bit more wind the boat took a little more heeling. The guys on the rail, that were in the wrong position already didn't move when the boat started to heel. That boat has not a lot of form stability and needs heel or the crew moving as ballast to create a fair amount of RM at low angles of heeling. The guy on the wheel did not correct soon enough, didn't yell to the crew to move to starboard and back, the ruder lost grip and the boom went all the way to the other side and the inevitable happened.

This would never happened with a Pogo 10.50 with this wind. With a Pogo we would not need crew siting around to balance the boat downwind: Its huge form stability would takes care of that, generating lots of RM at low angles of heel. The boat would not have heeled much in first place, nothing that the double rudders could not take care off.

Now, I am not saying that I prefer a Pogo (most of you know that I prefer a compromise between a Pogo and a J 109) but these images semmed too good not to post

YouTube - ‪Færderseilasen Wipeout‬‏

Last edited by PCP; 06-20-2011 at 11:27 AM.
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  #1174  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
I have tried avoid to answer that. I don't want to hurt any sensibilities .

One thing we can take for granted is that for each new American model that appear in the market there are 20 new (or more) European ones. It seems that Americans just turned to motorboats and that in Europe there are a lot more people buying new sailboats. This creates a difference in competitiveness that tends to improve the design of European boats in a faster way than in America. There are also a much bigger number of major boat designers and naval cabinets specialized in sailboats.

Generally each new model is better (and sails faster) than the previous model and each model is substituted in about 4 or 5 years and has a tight competition of several boat manufacturers working for the same sail segment. It is very rare that the best model of a particular market sector stays the same for more than three years, at least on the main market sector.

Saying this I do not find your comparison between the Tartan 4100 and the SO 409 accurate, particularly in what regards stability:

The Tartan has a B/D of 33% the Jeanneau 30%. Both boats have ballasted bulbs. The one from jeanneau seems bigger, meaning that most of the ballast is there, the Tartan seems to have the ballast distributed by all the keel with some of the ballast on a bulb but it is difficult to say because I never saw a Tartan 4100. Anyway I think that is more than compensated by the differences of draft, 2.1 to the Jeanneau, 2.29 to the Tartan. The Tartan will be a slightly more seaworthy and stiff boat but the Jeanneau will be faster. The Tartan has more 5m2 of sail that will not be capable to contra-balance the huge difference in weight : more than 1400kg.

I find the Jeanneau better designed over all: It has a brand new hull, top of the crop in what regards performance and stability, the Tartan uses a several years old hull taken from another boat (C&C). The Jeanneau superstructure looks very sleek and modern, the one from Tartan looks 10 year's old. On the interior the Jeanneau is also better designed but the quality of the materials are much better on the Tartan.

Fact is that by the quality of its materials (and its prices) the Tartan is in another category competing with boats like the Halberg Rassy, Najad or Malo.

As you probably know Tartan has been afflicted in the last years with many quality problems. They have changed owners and I would like to see it raising to it's former glory but I doubt that it will manage it without better designed boats. As I have said in a previous post, I liked more the previous 40ft model : It looked like a nice classic boat that could sail well. This one looks like a 10 year old "modern" boat.

Regarding Tartan sales in America I suspect they are on the low side, on Europe the boat don't sell. In 2008 the European importer has imported a 43 and the boat is not sold yet:

2008 Tartan 4300 Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

and I bet they will make a huge discount on that boat

Regards

Paulo
Hi Paulo,

Thanks for the info, yes Ive heard about the Tartan having problems and you already have stated that theyre rehashing old hulls as "new" ones. Ive also read that Americans have the edge in interior finish and this is their niche for those who wants to live aboard. But seeing some of the interiors of the Malos and Danish built boats, the Euro boats actually looks better with the exception of semi-customs like a Morris. Americans/Canadians also have different tastes with the exception of J-Boats, most here in the marina are smitten by Hinckleys, ohhh Hinckley is great. They love full displacement boats but at the same time no intention of sailing outside Lake Ontario . I would mention boats like Cigale and no one would know. BTW Ive been dropping boat names now since Ive been reading this thread..

Paulo I want to ask you in regards to Heavy Performance Cruisers (so that excludes Arconas, Salonas, Xyachts Performance range, Faurbys and Luffes) What is the fastest between a Malo, Najad or HR or other boats? Charts seems to indicate around same speed at diff points.

Also I just finished my Full Keel course and the instructor was adamant that Beam reach achieves fastest speed (He states this as fact) and when I read its mostly broad reach where some of these Euro boats are fastest.
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  #1175  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
Hi Paulo,

...

Paulo I want to ask you in regards to Heavy Performance Cruisers (so that excludes Arconas, Salonas, Xyachts Performance range, Faurbys and Luffes) What is the fastest between a Malo, Najad or HR or other boats? Charts seems to indicate around same speed at diff points.

Also I just finished my Full Keel course and the instructor was adamant that Beam reach achieves fastest speed (He states this as fact) and when I read its mostly broad reach where some of these Euro boats are fastest.
20 or 15 years ago the Malo, Najad and HR were heavy displacement boats but not anymore, I mean the new models. They are medium displacement boats. I would say that for some American standards they would be considered light boats (being the others you mentioned ULB).

The new ones are good sailing boats. I would say that among that type of boat the fastest would be the XC yachts (no doubt), then the Malo, the HR and the Najad. But between those three you would have to look at the boats one by one. As a rule the newer boats are faster. The Halberg Rassy 372 is an exception and it is really a fast boat, as fast or faster than the XC 38.

Regarding your teacher he is talking about full keeled boats, displacement boats, boats that cannot plane nor going faster than hull speed.

This is a nice one for learning how to sail. See the speed polar. Obviously this one can go faster than hull speed



Regards

Paulo
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This is the day of the nice movies. I want to share this one with you all. It is about Figaro II solo sailed on the last race (Generali Solo). This race has several races and this one, a small one, is a kind of a typical regatta. The Images are beautiful as it is fantastic the work of those skippers: A one man band And the music is great.

By the way Morvan won this one and the Generali solo and the only foreigner, A Portugais won one of the races, got third on this one and finnished in 5th.

YouTube - ‪Arrivée finale de la Generali Solo 2011‬‏
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A new boat of the kind I like: jpk 38fc
This seems to be racing like fast and comfortable (relatively) at the same time. Up to now the JPKs where less cruising oriented. Different than the Pogo it seems to come with a decent interior and doors!
And: They are already talking about the coming 42 ft version.

Longueur. . . . . . . . . . . 11,38 m
Largeur. . . . . . . . . . . . .3,99 m
Poids. . . . . . . . . . . . . . .5,000 t
Moteur Volvo. . . . . . . . . . 30 cv
Lest. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .1,900 t
Tirant d'eau quillard. . . . . . . 2,15 m
Tirant d'eau bi-quille. . . . . . . 1,75 m
Voilure
surface au près . . . . . . . . . . . . 80 m2
Spi asymétrique. . . . . .130 m2

Nice to see the traveller at the real end, directly at the transom. So you can install a big bimini. Together with the two tillers this gives lots of living space in the cockpit.
At the same time the interior looks interesting as well.

Ulf
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  #1178  
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See if im reading this right, this small Elan is a boat thats not so great upwind but can do 16knots at broad reach?? I mean thats almost as fast as a DF 35 for 1/5 less the price. No wonder these pocket rockets are so popular.

My bad about my course. It was called Basic keel boat (not full keel) and yes he said 90 degrees is where its fastest. It was great learning since the boats all manual, no roller nothing (Tanzer 25). He also has a Beneteau 37 as his own boat and when I asked him if he goes offshore with it he looked at me funny and invited me to his advance class in the Virgin Islands. From reading most of the forums, youd think that Benehuntelinas arent capable boats but meanwhile the reality is this guy was looking at me funny like "what are you talking about"? Hes going to Bermuda next year with it.

And this got me back into this thread where I see people are doubting that some of these half million dollar boats you posted may be problems in the open ocean yet an older Beneteau 37 goes to Bermuda no problem.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
See if im reading this right, this small Elan is a boat thats not so great upwind but can do 16knots at broad reach?? I mean thats almost as fast as a DF 35 for 1/5 less the price. No wonder these pocket rockets are so popular.
It's a fascinating topic, one that we can't do justice in these short notes. Frank BethWaite's "High Performance Sailing" is encyclopedic, and somewhat dry, on the speed-at-any-cost point of view. For balance, read Van Dorn's "Oceanography and Seamanship" for a cruiser's passagemaking point of view.

Basically, you're looking at opposite ends of a boat's performance range. Downwind, performance is limited by its ability to get up on plane, and sail area is limited by form stability. Upwind, she's strictly a displacement hull, limited by her keel and waterline.

Quote:
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And this got me back into this thread where I see people are doubting that some of these half million dollar boats you posted may be problems in the open ocean yet an older Beneteau 37 goes to Bermuda no problem.
They're all different, aimed to appeal to a different segment of the market. (And that's the key. They're not the boats we're likely to sail, but we all dream of one or another.)

Last edited by MikeWhy; 06-20-2011 at 07:22 PM.
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It's a fascinating topic, one that we can't do justice in these short notes. Frank BethWaite's "High Performance Sailing" is encyclopedic, and somewhat dry, on the speed-at-any-cost point of view. For balance, read Van Dorn's "Oceanography and Seamanship" for a cruiser's passagemaking point of view.

Basically, you're looking at opposite ends of a boat's performance range. Downwind, performance is limited by its ability to get up on plane, and sail area is limited by form stability. Upwind, she's strictly a displacement hull, limited by her keel and waterline.



They're all different, aimed to appeal to a different segment of the market. (And that's the key. They're not the boats we're likely to sail, but we all dream of one or another.)
It begs the question that after almost 50 years of small boats crossing oceans and round the globe racing, why cant they make the "perfect" boat. And by perfect i mean best compromise x yachts speed with Shannon seaworthiness. When i say an all around boat i do understand that a condo interior isnt a prerequisite, i can live with a dragonfly 35 interior long as i dont have to worry about it flipping in a force 10.. I know theres tons of assumption here but you guys know what i mean. A sailing boat that unites both camps.

Also how are these hulls? Are these new ocean cruisers going to last like their predecessors (ex. valiants) where 30 years from now they will be still be coveted.

Sorry for hijacking the thread a bit but these are newbie questions.
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