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  #1211  
Old 06-25-2011
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New boat, a racing one, a one design boat for what seems to be one of the more interesting and fast world series, the MOD 70. Several boats are already commissioned, two on the water and some of the world's best professional skippers are in.

Look at these images

YouTube - ‪The first meeting‬‏

the boat,

YouTube - ‪Number two‬‏

the concept:

YouTube - ‪Multi One Design 70 : Birth of a major trimaran‬‏

Last edited by PCP; 06-25-2011 at 08:47 PM.
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  #1212  
Old 06-26-2011
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And an "old" but interesting racing boat, the Melges 32. Look at these images on the Audi sailing series...How!!!

YouTube - ‪Audi Sailing Series Melges 32 - Porto Cervo - Day 2‬‏
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  #1213  
Old 06-26-2011
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And another race, this one a veeery popular one, the Round the Island Race, with all kinds of interesting sailboats. With more than 1900 you have to have all kinds of sail boats. very nice movies with all kind of boats and the results can give us some base of comparison between boats for the race conditions: windy and with waves.

YouTube - ‪J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011 Start Vodcast‬‏

YouTube - ‪Start footage from the J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011‬‏

YouTube - ‪J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011 Needles heli footage‬‏

YouTube - ‪J.P.Morgan Asset Management Round the Island Race 2011 Back of Island action footage‬‏

As usual I am not interested in compensated results but in pure performance for size. For the record let me tell you that in compensated, among a multitude of racing boats, the winner was a Contessa 26 and that in the first 10 places there was 5 slow boats: the 4th, 8th and 9th were Folk boats and the 5th was a Laurent Giles 1984 wooden boat. This only means that those boats have a huuuuuge handicap and that work well under those circumstances.

Saying that the Contessa 26 time is unbelievably good with a real time of 8 hours and 19 minutes.

The fastest boat was a Multi50 class Trimaran with 3.50 and the fastest monohull a TP 52 with 4.43.

I hear lot's of guys saying that the TP 52 are downwind boats but this one has beaten clearly in real time a 2000 Farr 52, supposedly a better upwind boat (4.55).

Another interesting point: Several Class 40 racing. How do they perform in real time in mixed conditions compared with other 40ft boats?

Best class 40 a Akilaria with 6.36 than a Jumbo with 6.54 and a Pogo with 7.38. Not famous results if compared with other 40 racing boats: Ker 11.3 - 6.19; J 111 - 5.59; Benetau Figaro II - 6.36 and 6.44 . And even the best cruiser racers were able to do better or equal: King 40 - 6.03; Sydney 39 - 6.18; J 122 - 6.25 and 6.50; A40rc - 6.37; Ker 39 - 6.27; First 40 - 6.43 and 6.49; Comet 41 - 6.56; Elan 410 - 7.0 -7.0 and 7.42.

The conclusion I have taken some posts back regarding the performance of the 40 class boats seem accurate: They are unbeatable for their size on the trade winds in a Transat but put them in offshore coastal conditions and they are equal or slower comparing with more traditional boats.

Regarding cruising versions I think it will be the same, Pogo 12.50 versus First 40 or Salona 41. On coastal conditions the Pogo will not average a better speed.

More to come about more cruising oriented boats and the relative differences to performance boats.

Feel free to comment. I would be more than happy to discuss this. I am trying to have a justified opinion about the performance of different kinds of fast boats with different hull and ballast options.

Last edited by PCP; 06-26-2011 at 03:43 PM.
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  #1214  
Old 06-26-2011
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Hello,

Last year, I did the Giraglia on A40 RC, maybe the best performing one in IRC at that time. As we were beating along in 25 knots, you could easily see the class 40 boats just passing by. Being lower but a hell of a lot faster. Then, we rounded a mark to attack some Downwind VMG in 30 knots. The few class 40 that were still behind at that point just passed by effortlessly. On the A40 RC, we were working the boat hard, pumping, grinding the spi hard and often swaping crew to not burn ourselves. The class 40 just passed by with Akite over trimmed and the guys having some food in the cockpit. Not at all the same scenario as we had. Eventually, wind slacked off completly and we could see the class 40s far ahead, they seamed sticky. But we never managed to get back to them.
We finished as first A40, ahead of the two first 40 that were competing, and just behing a Salona 42 that has a way better rating.
Then, the last tour of Corsica, I was on a Grand Soleil 40 BC with the full race kit. It has been a mostly light to very light race. No class 40 racing, but we faced a Class 9.50 (akilaria) and we just could not get rid of them. It was always next to us while being a hell of lot shorter.
These observations reconforted me in my choice of beamy light displacement boat to go around. Appart from hard beating from 10 to 15 knots (depending on sea state), and VMG downwind in the same range, the wide and light is performing better and does not need as much work to be quick as a usual more cruising orientated boat. Class 40 often go with 4 crew while you'd need 11 people on a First 40 to get it around properly.
Then again, for the same budget as a class 40 you can get a longer "traditionnal" boat, so that is maybe when you can actually get performance / cash even.

Regards
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  #1215  
Old 06-26-2011
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Adrien, thanks for your insight that is certainly an informed one but as you can see by the results of that race there are conditions were the class 40 are beaten by cruiser racers. Very fast cruiser racers like the King 40 or the Ker 39 have beaten all class 40 by a considerable difference and more "normal" cruiser racers like the First 40, J 122 or A40rc made similar times.

On the two last Sydney to Hobart a Pogo class40 raced by a local racing crew that race the boat extensively for several years were beaten in real time by a First 40.

I think that there is no doubts that in some conditions traditional cruiser racers can be faster than pure racing boats like the class 40 and certainly faster that the cruiser versions that as you know don't have water ballasts. I believe, and the conditions on that races suggest, that happens in heavy seas and waves of considerable size and also when the percentage of upwind sailing is important.

Regarding your boat, I have said already that for travelling and eventually circumnavigate following the trade winds a boat like yours or a Pogo makes all the sense. I agree that a beamy boat with a large transom is more stable downwind and easier to sail, even on autopilot. The reverse is that a boat with a moderate beam like a First 40 or a Salona 41 will take a lesser pounding upwind and is at least as easy to sail on that position, if not easier.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1216  
Old 06-26-2011
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Just to check I did have a look at last year results. The race was slower with less wind and waves. Actually this is a good race to measure overall sailing results. It is a complete tour of an Island in about seven hours so the chances is that you get wind from all directions.

Even with a slower race with less wind and waves the results were consistent with this year results:

The fastest 40class was an Akilaria 40 with 7.03 then a Jumbo 7.41 then a Pogo 7.47. On the top cruiser racers the fastest was a king 40 with 6.59 then a Ker 39 with 7.05 (another one made 7.33). On more "normal" cruiser racers a J122 made 7.07 another 7.08 an Elan 410 7.13, another 7.31. A First 40 made 7.12 another 7.27 and a A40rc made 7.16.

I had also a look at the Giraglia results (2011):

GIRAGLIA ROLEX CUP 2011

This year only two class 40 entered, one made 44.03 other 46 hours 59m. There was cruiser racers faster (real time) and others with similar times: the fastest a Millenium 40 with 45.25 a J122 with 45.44 another with 46.30, a Rimar 41.3 with 46.41 and a Salona 42 with 46.52.

Last year on the Giraglia offshore race I can only find a Class 40, a Pogo that made 48.39 and again a cruiser racer was faster, a J122 with 47.35 and several others made similar times: Dehler 39 - 48.40, Rimar 41.3 - 48.48, Hanse 400 - 48.48, A40-48.49.

You can download the results from the last PDF on this page:

Google

Last edited by PCP; 06-26-2011 at 09:24 PM.
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  #1217  
Old 06-27-2011
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Hello,
The more upwind, the better is a narrow and heavy boat. No doubt about that.
Looking at your conclusions, I have to admit I am quite surprised. I guess I'll have to race the Fox 10.20, and see by myself how this goes. It could be interesting..... I guess I'll need new sails by the time I reach Sydney. :-)
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  #1218  
Old 06-27-2011
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Interesting info on the race results. Obviously there are rules and exceptions. With the race performance of the smaller boats it looks like they know that area like the back of their hand and can take advantage of it.

This year based on feedback there was about 25 kts on the nose for the first 13 miles, running against the current of about 2 kts. 2nd leg downwind for 13 miles with @ 135° to the wind with about 25kts, next two legs downwind 5 miles each with winds in 20-25 kts and tide weakening. Then 4 miles leg wind at about 70%, then 12 miles with the wind on the nose, slack going to running with the current. Wind in 12-15 kts.

30 miles upwind of which 13 against a strong current, 20 miles downwind. Your VMG get's killed on the designs that don't point into the 35° with that type of current. I would "imagine" if you look at the race stage by stage, you see that the planing designs got hammered on the first leg and held their own after.

Not making excuses because I'm not concerned one way or another but 8 hours for 50 NM straight line - figure well over 70nm with the tacks is still >8 kts average for a 40 footer. I don't know who was crewing on either nor the kit sail wise but that's a major factor as we all know. I bet the logs on the narrower boats show less NM because they can point better on those 2 upwind legs.

Congrats to the "little guys" for their performance.
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  #1219  
Old 06-27-2011
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BB74, thanks for the additional information about the weather and wind on the Round the Island race. Tomorrow I will post some information comparing the performance of the cruiser racers with the performance of the cruisers. This race has so many boats involved that is an invaluable source of information to compare the real performance of different sailboat types. That's true that the crew is fundamental for the performance but when we have several similar boats with identical performance conclusions can be taken.
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  #1220  
Old 06-28-2011
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So let's look at the cruiser boat times having as reference the times of the two best Class 40 (between 6.36 and 6.54) and the times of the fastest cruiser-racers (J122 -6.25; Sydney 39 - 6.18; Ker 39- 6.27; A40 rc - 6.37; First 40 6.49).

Curiously there was two OVNIS there and as there was some discussion on this thread about their performance their comparative results are interesting: OVNI 435 - 8.10; OVMI 39 5- 8.59. Very good if we consider that these ate aluminum center boarders and that is worst sailing position is upwind sailing. A Southerly 46RS (8.07) a swing keel boat but with ballast on the keel did not so good (I would expect the boat to be much faster than the OVNI 435).

Other unexpected good performances taking into account the sea and wind conditions: Jeanneau 36i - 8.00; Dufour 405 - 8.21; Oceanis 40 - 8.36; Hanse 400 -8.12; Jeanneau SO 42i - 7.50; Jeanneau 54DS 7.50; Jeanneau 49DS 8.07; Bavaria 46 - 8.12.

Of course we don't know how good was the crew and if the boat was sailed to its potential. Some of those boats had more sisters racing and they got remarkably worst results so I guess they were well sailed: The second jeanneau 36i -10.41 (lot's of Bavarias 36 faster than that 9.23, 9.24 and so on) , the second Hanse 400 - 8.49, the second best Oceanis 40 -9.54.

Let's see how these times compare with good and fast medium weight cruisers, taking into attention that the conditions were favorable for them: Contessa 35 -9.36; Najad 380 - 9.04; Comfortina 42 - 8.21; Bowman 42 -8.02.

Let's see how these times compare with smaller performance cruisers:
Elan 31 - 8.06; First 35 -6.43 (almost as fast as the fastest 40class boat), another with 7.08; A35 - 7.12; J109 -7.02 - 7.10 - 7.13 - 7.15; Elan 350 - 7.08, Elan 380 - 7.29 - ; Arcona 370 - 7.54 -8.40; Dehler 39 -7.39 - 8.08.

Some other interesting results, the Hammerhead 35, a boat with a swing keel that was discussed on this thread, show that with all that technology was slower than less sophisticated and less expensive 35 ft boats. The JP 52, also posted in this thread (a kind of smaller Open60 cruising boat) kick ass with 5.15, the Grand Soleil 43 has done very well (6.43 and 6.45) as well as the Arcona 430 - 6.44 (both boats are on the thread). We all know that the J 133 is a fast boat : 6.37 - 6.59 with comparable results with a Class 40.

Finally the multihulls that with unfavorable conditions have showed that they can go, even with waves and mostly against the wind, faster than much bigger monohulls. I have already mentioned the scratch winner, a racing Multi50 (the one you can have in a cruising version, mentioned some posts back) with 3.50 and the cruising ones: Dragonfly 920 - 5.45; Farrier 27 - 6.00; Dragonfly 28 - 6.09; Corsair Dash 750 - 6.19.

A last word for the cruiser racers of another era, the Contessas that in these sea and wind conditions performed admirably well: The winner, a Contessa 26 with 8.19 and the 32's with 8.08 - 8.08 - 8.09. If we compare their results with the ones from the J 80 we can see that there is not a big difference: 7.28 - 7.28 - 7.51.

Comments please? I would like to know what you think about these results.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 06-28-2011 at 06:15 AM.
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