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  #1321  
Old 07-21-2011
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Thanks for the pics Paulo. I think this setup is ideal for a cruisers and it is a great boat. But I'm looking at this in a racing perspective where you have to move the car up and down to optimize and like Erick mentioned most importantly letting out the main suddenly in an imminent collision which happens, well, every damn time.
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  #1322  
Old 07-21-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
Thanks for the pics Paulo. I think this setup is ideal for a cruisers and it is a great boat. But I'm looking at this in a racing perspective where you have to move the car up and down to optimize and like Erick mentioned most importantly letting out the main suddenly in an imminent collision which happens, well, every damn time.
To let go the main you don't need the traveler and you can do that on the J 409 from the wheel.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1323  
Old 07-21-2011
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One does not need to worry about the coach roof traveler as mentioned in the 409, even racing. X-yachts IIRC is using a very similar design main sheet. As are other race oriented boats. The thing I do not like, is only one winch to handle ALL the sheets on a side, be it the main, jib, or spin. It would be nice to have 2 winches per side for these sails if racing. Otherwise, I would have no problem with the 409 setup racing. Altho a longer mainsheet track is nice!

Not sure what the pic is that Paulo is showing, altho it does have the look of the 439 DS44 version. So it could be a jeanneau I have not heard about. or same designer but a bene! With that, off to walk the pirate puppy in avatar at the marina!

Marty
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  #1324  
Old 07-21-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EricKLYC View Post
On the contrary, I think this is a very intelligent question!

I agree with Paulo that the possibility to fit a bimini is probably the most important reason why so many production boats have only a short traveler on the coach roof. Charterers want bimini’s and charter companies are very important clients for mass production boatyards.

....
Having the downhaul at hand to release it in case of emergency is a good thing. But to be able to master and trim a big mainsail, especially upwind, a performant traveler is essential. Unless you have a very powerful downhaul to control the leach and twist of the sail efficiently, which production boats almost never provide. In addition, the increasingly popular German sheeting system is not practical to respond quickly to puffs and lulls by means of the main sheet.

A traveler on the coachroof is completely out of hand, impossible to manage without using the winches and therefore almost never used. So I wonder why most builders even bother to fit it…

Best regards,

Eric
A big bimini is not only important to the "charters" but to any cruiser on a hot climate were most people sails. If you do not have a big bimini you have to mount some kind of shade (a tent on the boom) when you are at anchor.

That is a lot less practical and besides you cannot use it when sailing and the small bimini that a traveler aft permits is not always sufficient to provide shade when you sail. A traveler aft also obstructs the cockpit and make it less agreeable to "passengers".

I will trade the nice things a good big bimini provides and a less clean cockpit by a traveler near the wheel but that is a personal choice and one that is pretty marginal. Most cruisers will chose the big bimini and that's why practically all cruising boats have the traveler over the cabin. Only the cruiser racers have the traveler on the back of the boat because only the ones that chose that kind of boat prefer that option.

The Jeanneau 409 is a cruiser, a fast cruiser, but with no pretensions to be a cruiser racer and so almost all the ones that would chose that boat would prefer the traveler over the cabin.

And Erick you are right, most of the cruisers don't really use the traveler and that's why most of the big production cruisers don't have a traveler anymore:

The Hanses, the Bavarias, the Benetau and even the new Jeanneau 379 don't have one. I believe that the Jeanneau 409 still has one (and not a small one) because it is more sportive than the other mentioned cruisers and the sailors that will buy it will probably use it and want one.

Regarding what you say about the traveler I agree with you, it is not practical to respond quickly to puffs and lulls, unless you have a crew member on it, but otherwise you can perfectly shape the main correctly with it ( I used one on the Bavaria 36). With another crew member on it, providing it is a strong one you don't need to use the winches to control the traveler. Many times on strong winds me and my kid played with the boat, kind of doing 8K with 25/30K wind with a 2th reef at 90º. The boat on the limit reacted as a big dingy and it was indispensable a lot of work with the traveler and the wheel.

Contrary to the cruisers that have the main boom control on the cockpit (most of them), with the German sheeting you can really respond quickly to any emergency letting the boom go even if you sail solo.

Not as good and practical as having the main boom control and the traveller at hand but certainly a lot better than having both controls over the cockpit as it is usual in all cruisers without German sheeting.

I think that you would agree that a good traveler over the cockpit is a lot better than no traveler at all and that is what the Jeanneau 409 has and the vast majority of other cruisers don't have, a traveler and the main boom control line at the wheel

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 07-21-2011 at 09:36 PM.
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  #1325  
Old 07-21-2011
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Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Eh!Eh! you are shooting a lot: With Jeanneau and Benetau you are taking a lot of options....but no, you have missed...on the brand and on the designer

Regards

Paulo
I figured that, just did not want to go see if i could find it!

Off with the doggy I go!
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  #1326  
Old 07-22-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Eh!Eh! you are shooting a lot: With Jeanneau and Benetau you are taking a lot of options....but no, you have missed...on the brand and on the designer
I have just tested if Home*|*YACHT.DE is offering up to date information. They do and so I figured out what this is...
:-)
Looks like heavy.
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  #1327  
Old 07-22-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by myocean View Post
I have just tested if Home*|*YACHT.DE is offering up to date information. They do and so I figured out what this is...
:-)
Looks like heavy.
Yes, that's were I have got the information

That's the new Bavaria Vision, the first of the new series, a 46ft.






About being a bit heavy that should not surprise because Bavaria had opted to stop the race for the lighter boat and concentrate on doing solid boats. They now own Dufour and Grand Soleil for lighter and faster boats.

This one is going to be a pure cruiser but remember that the Vision boats were faster and had a better B/D ratio than the "normal" cruisers from Bavaria. I bet this one is continuing that trend, more heavy than the competition but with a better B/D and that means with more "power" to use sails.

The boat is designed by Farr and it looks a lot better than previous Bavaria. Let's hope that the design is not misleading and hope that Bavaria has put a good interior designer doing the inside. That is one of the weak points of Bavarias regarding French and Italian boats: Same quality interior, but worse design.

By the way, Bavarias, almost all range, was tested by the "Bluewater magazine" and they say almost embarrassingly well of all the boats. They got wind and sailed the boats impressively fast.

I had read the full review, were they talk about speeds but for the ones that are interested in this type of boats here is a short resume:

http://www.bavariayachts.com/blog/wp...in-america.pdf

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 07-22-2011 at 07:20 AM.
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  #1328  
Old 07-22-2011
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Originally Posted by JAndersB View Post
I saw the video 2 months ago so I have to take it from memory but basically he had only good things to say.

Regards,
Anders
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6SE5...eature=related

Thanks Anders,

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 07-22-2011 at 07:24 AM.
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  #1329  
Old 07-22-2011
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Update on the jeanneau 376: a small video and boat photos:

the video:

‪Sun Odyssey 379‬‏ - YouTube

The photos:








Pity the hig freeboard but just look at this galley








The boat has a great polar speed. I hope that she can really sail like that This is a fast boat.



Last edited by PCP; 07-22-2011 at 06:53 PM.
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  #1330  
Old 07-22-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
And Erick you are right, most of the cruisers don't really use the traveler and that's why most of the big production cruisers don't have a traveler anymore.

Many times on strong winds me and my kid played with the boat, kind of doing 8K with 25/30K wind with a 2th reef at 90º. The boat on the limit reacted as a big dingy and it was indispensable a lot of work with the traveler and the wheel.

I think that you would agree that a good traveler over the cockpit is a lot better than no traveler at all and that is what the Jeanneau 409 has and the vast majority of other cruisers don't have, a traveler and the main boom control line at the wheel
I agree, Paulo. An uncluttered cockpit is certainly most important for most cruisers, who value a bimini that can stay up when sailing and better access to the bathing platform more than sailing performance. Since many cruisers probably do not understand the use of a traveler anyway, it makes perfect sense not to fit any at all.

Compared with both the mainsheet and the traveler completely out of hand on the coach roof, the German sheeting system should indeed allow you to ease the mainsail from the helm in case of emergency.

But for active upwind sailing, quickly easing and hauling in puffs and lulls, nothing beats a full-size and well purchased traveler positioned aft, right under the clew of the mainsail.
I really think it takes somebody like Paulo at the helm, plus an athletic and well motivated kid at the coach roof to be able to perform this kind of active sailing with what most production boats offer as a mainsail traveler .

Of course, I perfectly understand that this of no importance whatsoever to most users. Every day we can see very loosely hoisted sails, horrible sheeting angles and even sails without battens, while everyone on board is perfectly happy. As long as no-one gets as fuzzy about security issues, this can be perfectly OK.

So once again, it comes down to making the right, personal and well informed choices.
But I personally wouldn’t be happy without a good mainsail traveler.

Best regards,

Eric
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