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  #1391  
Old 09-06-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
Hi Paulo and Anders,

While reading up on all these performance cruisers it seems like the Opium 39 has the best combination of upwind and downwind performance for 40 footers.

From some of the numbers, it seems to point better than a Pogo and better downwind than narrow boats like the Luffes ,Xs, Salonas. Interior seems better from the pics than the Js. Seems like a perfect racer/cruiser.

Am I making sense with regards to this boat?
Well, I would say that for Anders it is the perfect performance cruiser since he had bought one but for Eric that is waiting the delivery of a Pogo 12.50 the Pogo would be the perfect performance cruiser while for me that probably will buy a Salona 41 (or 38) the Salona would be the perfect performance cruiser

This thread is not about the perfect boat, performance cruiser or otherwise, but about good boats and their characteristics, helping sailors to find the boat that more adjust to their concept of perfect cruiser: Different sailors, different perfect cruisers, cruiser-racers or any other type

Regarding speed the only way to know is having the boats on the water at the same time and see the differences. That has already been tested by a sail magazine with a comparative test between the Opium 39, a prototype for the Pogo 12.50 and a Dufour 40e. A Dufour 40e is closer to a Salona 41 but slower and with less pointing ability. I have posted about that:


Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
....

You should read this boat test:

YouTube - Match au sommet voiliers de 40 pieds !

They have made a comparison between a Dufour 40e, an Opium 39 and a Pogo 40 cruising (12.50 prototype). The wind was a good force 5 and the sea had short waves. Close to the wind the speed were the same (7.5), with the Opium (with a worst sail, the original was stolen) making less 5ļ to the true wind.

They have said that the Dufour is a little better with winds lighter than 20K and the Pogo a bit better over 20k. The Dufour is more comfortable and passes better the short waves, the Pogo passes in power (I believe that is why he needs more wind to be faster than the Dufour).

Downwind the Pogo rules with 12k with the other boats making 8/9K.
Of course, for having that performance a Pogo is a much more stripped down boat with a poorer interior than the Dufour or the Opium. That has no importance to some but would have for me.

Regarding the comparative performance of narrower performance boats like the Salona 41 or the First 40 compared with the Pogo 12.50 it all has to do with the sailing conditions: Downwind, with more than 14K a Pogo 12.50 would go away, but look at the results of the last editions of the Sydney-Hobart race and you will see that a First 40 always beat a racing Pogo 40 (more powerful than a 12.50).

The Sydney-Hobart is a race with rough weather, lots of waves and lots of upwind sailing. On those conditions a traditional cruiser racer like the First 40, the Salona 41, the X 40 or the x 122 will go faster and most of all smother than a boat like the Opium or the Pogo.

If there was a perfect type of boat for having as a performance boat, all brands would be making that same kind of boat. They are not because boats are compromises, even in what regards performance and different sailors chose different compromises even in what regards performance.

Regards

Paulo
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Last edited by PCP; 09-06-2011 at 09:30 AM.
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  #1392  
Old 09-06-2011
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Seems to me, Beneteau has specialized in building cheap boats for the charter trade, and the Bene O 41 is just that. The Ikea -like interior, lack of handholds, lack of opening portholes (only 3 small portholes and 1 hatch in the salon !!????) and the nav table as an afterthought ( who wants to go through the salon with dripping wet foulies to look at the chart?) clearly disqualify this boat as a proper yacht.
I don't care how good this deal is, I'd rather spend my pennies on a used older, real purposed sailing vessel, than a dock condo where the cabinetry will be adrift after a good beat.
But it all depends what one is looking for in a sailboat....
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  #1393  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Seems to me, Beneteau has specialized in building cheap boats for the charter trade, and the Bene O 41 is just that. The Ikea -like interior, lack of handholds, lack of opening portholes (only 3 small portholes and 1 hatch in the salon !!????) and the nav table as an afterthought ( who wants to go through the salon with dripping wet foulies to look at the chart?) clearly disqualify this boat as a proper yacht.
I don't care how good this deal is, I'd rather spend my pennies on a used older, real purposed sailing vessel, than a dock condo where the cabinetry will be adrift after a good beat.
But it all depends what one is looking for in a sailboat....
I can see some handholds but that is not the question. You repeatedly denigrate any boat that it is not designed with passage making in mind. That makes no sense. People that use sailboats primarily offshore are just a tiny minority, probably less than 1%.

Obviously the Benetau 41 is not designed with that objective even if the boat could be easily adapted for offshore work. The boat is designed aiming the vast majority of sailors that just want to have a short day-sailing in cruising grounds and stay lots of time on anchorages getting tanned. Nothing wrong with that. The only offshore most of these boats will make is the small day trip to get to the cruising grounds and you can bet they will sail it under a good weather report.

Saying that the boat is designed for charter is ignoring that even if charter market has importance in this kind of boats, the vast majority are sold to individual sailors. Besides I don't see what is the problem with designing a boat for charter: It has to be designed to resist all forms of abuse and the utilization that is given to the boat in charter is just the same utilization that is gonna be given by the kind of sailors that will buy Beneteau, that is the vast majority of sailors.

Certainly the Beneteau is cheap (like Bavarias and Jeanneaus). That's what gives the possibility to people to have a modern good performance sailboat. But Cheap foes not mean badly built. If they were badly built they would not dominate the market

I understand that you want for you a true passage maker. Not a problem with that if you are really going to use it that way otherwise it would be just a waste of money and you will end up with a boat much less adapted than the Benetau for coastal cruising.

By the way, I am curious why do you want a true passage maker? What are your experience? What is your sail program? Do you have a boat? Do you sail regularly?

Most people just don't know the limits of a boat like the Oceanis 41. They will take more hardship than 90% of the sailors can sustain, even if they were not designed as passage makers

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-06-2011 at 06:40 PM.
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  #1394  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Seems to me, Beneteau has specialized in building cheap boats for the charter trade, and the Bene O 41 is just that. The Ikea -like interior, lack of handholds, lack of opening portholes (only 3 small portholes and 1 hatch in the salon !!????) and the nav table as an afterthought ( who wants to go through the salon with dripping wet foulies to look at the chart?) clearly disqualify this boat as a proper yacht.
I don't care how good this deal is, I'd rather spend my pennies on a used older, real purposed sailing vessel, than a dock condo where the cabinetry will be adrift after a good beat.
But it all depends what one is looking for in a sailboat....
I don't think any manufacturer cares what you think if your preferred vessel is a used, older boat. Beneteau knows where the profit lies and they build boats for that market. Their Sense series is perfect for the way I use a boat most of the time (lots of inexperienced guests looking for a nice relaxing sail) - but way out of my price range unfortunately. Although in talking to the local dealer they have already sold all they can get and still have people asking them for more.
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  #1395  
Old 09-06-2011
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Welcome to the thread UrbanChicago



I heard that Jimmy Cornell has been in France to test the Allures 45 for the World Cruising Magazine. I have posted about the boat and I have said that it was a passage maker, a good long range voyager.




Jimmy Cornell seems to agree he says about the boat: The Allures 45 is the perfect choice for sailing around the world, everywhere.

(translated from the French)


Regards

Paulo
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  #1396  
Old 09-06-2011
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The Allures makes a very argument for itself doesn't it ? I'd like to see a shot of her with the board down but she is a handsome boat in general. Maybe a bit too much glass on top ? She could get pretty damn hot down below in the tropics.

She has really sensible features in lots of areas and that twin seat chart table has got to be the kicker. How good is that ? To be able to sit and plan your passages together. Great idea.
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  #1397  
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Regarding the new Benetau 41, well for good and for bad it represents a cut with the tradition. When I saw the boat sideways it seemed a revamped 40 but the hull design is a completely different story. Compare both boats:








So, big difference eh!


Now take a look at the shape of the Pogo 12.50 and the Opium 39:







That's the same kind of hull, even in what regards the big lateral chine. Finot the Benetau 41 designer is also the Pogo 41 designer

Will then the Benetau 41 be some kind of inexpensive Pogo, some kind of very fast boat?

No way, the Pogo weights 5.5T the Benetau weights 8.5T. The Pogo will plan easily downwind with medium winds and the Benetau will go over hull speed downwind but will need strong wind to do that.

The Oceanis 41 seems to have remarkably thin bow entries for a cruiser but I am sure the Pogo will have them thinner. The Pogo is not a beast close upwind but it will be a lot better than the Oceanis even if I have the feeling that she is not as bad as that type of hull lead to suppose.

The Oceanis 41 seems to come in the following of the Oceanis 37, also a Finot designed boat and a boat that shares some of its characteristics even if the 41 is more radical. The Oceanis 37 is a great boat for an inexpensive boat and one of the best 36/37ft mass production cruiser around.

The boat seems a lot more "light" than the old 40 and a lot more sportive but like the old one shares some drawbacks the worse, a small Ballast/weight ratio but also a single rudder that don't seem appropriated to any sportive attempt. The Arch system give it a odd looking and don't seem to go with the boat design, but worse than that the boat has not a travel, just an easy and very basic trim system.

So, why that hull design? well UrbanChicago got it. It is for the same reason the Sense series have the same hull. As UrbanChicago says:

Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanChicago View Post
.. Their Sense series is perfect for the way I use a boat most of the time (lots of inexperienced guests looking for a nice relaxing sail) - ..
The boat is made to sail with very little heel in a relaxing way. That's what that hull is all about: To provide a huge hull stability that permits the boat to be a very stable platform and to sail with little heel.

And what other mass production 40ft can carry almost 600L of water. The ladies are going to love that: Finaly they can wash the hair with fresh water everyday while on anchorage to take away the salt. My wife would love that

So UrbanChicago, this boat are god news for you, it will sail lake a Sense (maybe better) and it will cost a lot less.

I don't know why they have chosen that dark wood for the presentation pictures. That seems a mistake to me: the boat really look a lot better in lighter woods

Beneteau Oceanis 41 45 48 - YouTube

And the boat has also a big galley and a big head. I will be very curious about the first test sails. Finot is known to design fast hulls and even if the rigging is quite basic it can reserve us some surprises

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-06-2011 at 10:13 PM.
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  #1398  
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The Allures makes a very argument for itself doesn't it ? I'd like to see a shot of her with the board down but she is a handsome boat in general. ...
I never saw drawing or picture of the under-body but she should not be very different from the 44 (the previous model). It is deep (3m) and contrary to the ones from OVNIS, profiled, as the twin rudders. The propeller has a protection.



Regards

Paulo
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  #1399  
Old 09-07-2011
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My cruising instructor had a Beneteau 37. He sails to the USVI down in the carribean. I asked him if he sails the 37. He looked at me funny and asked "why not'? So take that for what it is. Not sure if "seaworthiness" was better in older Beneteaus.

Not seen any Grand Soleils Paulo. Looks like a great club racer. Whats the level of quality of these boats? They look expensive. Are they x-yachts level or more Elans

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Old 09-07-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
My cruising instructor had a Beneteau 37. He sails to the USVI down in the carribean. I asked him if he sails the 37. He looked at me funny and asked "why not'? So take that for what it is. Not sure if "seaworthiness" was better in older Beneteaus.

Not seen any Grand Soleils Paulo. Looks like a great club racer. Whats the level of quality of these boats? They look expensive. Are they x-yachts level or more Elans
A Benetau 37 is not an old Benetau. It is still on production and as I have said on a previous post it is a Finot design boat and a great boat.

Sure he looked you funny, what kind of question is that? A Benetau 37 with the right equipment, with the right shipper would have not any problem in crossing the pond in the right season and at a moderate latitude.

There is a big post about the Benetau 37 here:

Interesting Sailboats

The Grand-Soleil is another animal, I love the 43ft, if it was not so expensive I would have it on my short list.

The Grand-Soleil share many characteristics with Salona and X-yachts: They all have an interior carbon or steel grid to absorb keel and shroud efforts, share the same kind of hull (with moderate beam) are all very good upwind with a good performance downwind.

The difference is that the Salona costs about as much as the Opium while the Grand-Soleil costs near what costs X-yachts, and that is a lot more

The build quality of Grand-Soleil is good, almost as good as X-Yachts and I would say at the same level as Salona.

That Stell/Carbon Grid and price is one of the reasons I probably will buy a Salona: All performance boats are made the same way, with infusion methods, cored hulls and the best with epoxy based resins. A lighter boat will perform better but obviously, being made the same way and with the same materials will be more fragile.

Of course people want fast boats and the shipyards go on making lighter and lighter boats but the safety and durability margins are being reduced. One thing is a boat for racing, that is checked after each race looking for points that need reinforcement and that will be reinforced, other a performance cruiser that should be made to last and not to bother with.

The biggest problem, the places that will be more prone to failure, are the keel and shroud attachments. You certainly have heard about several performance boats losing their keel and losing the rig on shroud failure. The problem will be bigger with age and with stressed material. A internal big stainless steel structure will take those efforts and will redistribute them by all the hull eliminating those failure points.

The reason you don't see more boats using it is price (Luffe and Arcona also use it). I am very happy that Salona, a less expensive boat, has one ( and a stainless one) and as I have said that is one of the big reasons I am interested in a Salona, furthermore I like more the Salona interior design, compared with the one from Grand-Soleil (dark woods and a galley along all saloon).

Regards

Paulo
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