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Interesting Sailboats

3M views 7K replies 205 participants last post by  tdw 
#1 · (Edited)
Sirius 32, Sirius 35

THE OBJECT OF THIS THREAD:

Interesting sailboats in production and available on the new boat market (only boats with modern designs, meaning that the boats still in production but made with old designs are out). Recent designs out of production are also admissible.

Modern boat designs and modern one off, if interesting.

Classical boats and traditional boats.

Small cruisers (less than 35ft)

Seezunge 27ft: PG1-PT9

Hanse 325: PG19-PT185;

Presto 30 : 33-326; 33-327; 34-331; 34-333; 55-543; 55-544;

Tess Yachts: 37-366; 38-373;

Tess 28 Magnum: 37-369; 38-371;

Delphia 28: 38-373;

Vancouver 27/28 : 42-412; 72-717;

Cruisers between 35ft and 49ft


Catalina 355 : 31-306;

RM sailboats: PG5-PT41; 5-42

RM1050: PG5-PT46; 5-47; 5-48;

RM 1060: PG8-PT77; 8-78; 8-79; 8-80; 9-81; 30-295; 40-400; 79-786;

RM 1200: PG9-PT84; 9-85; 19-184; 20-191; 20-192; 41-404; 42-414; 42-418; 43-425; 43-426; 69-688;

RM 1350: PG9-PT82; 55-549; 95-943;

Morris Yachts: PG7-PT61

Bavaria 36: PG19-PT188; 19-190; 20-196;

Bavaria 40: PG10-PT95; 28-278; 29-281; 29-282; 29-283; 29-286; 32-316; 36-356; 51-502; 51-507; 52-518; 53-527; 53-532;

Bavaria 40s: 69-685; 78-775;

Bavaria 45: PG10-PT96; 19-190;

Rustler Yachts: PG11-PT104;

Jeanneau 409: PG11-PT103: 11-106; 30-298; 30-299; 36-356; 51-502; 51-504; 51-505; 51-509; 52-513; 52-514; 52-515; 52-516; 53-527; 54-532; 57-564; 57-570; 58-571; 58-580; 59-581; 59-583; 59-585; 62-614; 74-739; 91-906;

Jeanneau 439: 40-396; 40-397; 59-584; 59-585; 96-956;

Hanse Yachts: 16-154; 16-156; 16-158;

Hanse 400: 81-804;

Bluewater cruising yachts: 21-206

Beneteau Oceanis 37 : 31-306; 31-308; 31-309; 32-314; 55-541;

XC 38: 36-356; 96-954;

Diva 38: 39-386;

Diva 35: 40-391;

Dufour 405: 62-614;

Defline 43: 63-622

Walkabout 43: 93-923; 93-925; 93-927;

Small performance cruisers (less than 35ft)


Performance 32ft test: 29-87;

Sun Fast 3200: PG4-PT33; 4-34; 4-36; 30-293;

Elan 210: 70-691; 70-696; 78-779; 79-781;

Elan 310: PC7-PT64; 7-69; 8-71; 36-356; 41-408;

Quest 33: PG7-PT62

Olea 32: 25-243; 25-245;

First 27.7: 38-373; 38-380; 39-382;

First 30: 30-295; 39-356; 41-408; 55-545; 55-546;

Comet 26: 34-340; 35-345; 35-350; 36-353;

Pacer 30: 36-357;

Django 7.7: 40-399;

Vivace/Evosion 34: 45-442; 45-446; 45-445; 45-446; 45-447; 45-448; 45-449; 45-450; 46-458; 46-460;

Finn Flyer 34: 46-451; 46-453; 60-593;

Salona 34: 46-457;

Heol 7.4: 63-621; 63-622;

Azuree 33: 87-867; 91-902; 91-904;

JPK 10.10: 88-877 ; 88-880; 89-883;

Performance cruisers (between 35ft and 49ft)

Pogo 10.50: PG2-PT20; 3-27; 3-28; 3-30; 4-35; 5-50; 6-51; 6-52; 6-60; 11-101; 11-107; 11-110; 43-425; 44-440; 87-861; 87-867;

Pogo 12.50: PG13-PT125; 20-198; 20-199; 22-214; 27-264; 27-265; 27-269; 32-317; 32-319; 43-425; 43-426; 43-428; 44-432; 44-437; 44-439; 55-546; 55-547; 82-812; 84-831; 87-870;

Este 40: 89-890; 90-893; 90-899;

A35: PG5-PT42; 5-44; 66-660;

A40RC: 92-914;

Hammerhead 35: 64-645

Opium 39: PG5-PT42; 9-85; 9-89; 13-125; 22-220; 22-221; 43-426; 55-547; 86-857;

Aerodyne 35: PG7-PT62

Elan 350: PG7-PT64; 13-24; 13-126; 13-127; 13-128; 14-132; 18-178; 26-255; 36-356; 40-398; 41-405; 57-564; 59-589; 60-591; 72-711; 73-724; 74-738;

Elan 380: 23-223; 25-249; 26-256; 40-398; 59-589; 97-962;

Elan 410: 32-316; 79-784;

JPK 110: PG9-PT85; 10-91

Olea 44: PG10-PT100; 27-268;

Olea Yachts: 25-247;

Dufour 40e: Pg13-Pt125; 32-316; 55-547; 56-558; 56-559; 57-561; 57-562; 57-563; 59-586; 59-588,

Salona 37: 36-359; 41-406;

Salona 41: PG15-PT141; 15-145; 32-316; 36-356; 40-398; 54-538; 57-569; 78-778; 80-796; 80-798; 97-965;

Salona 42: PG15-PT145; 36-359; 40-398; 93-929; 94-932;

Cigale 16: PG15-PT148; 16-152; 17-161; 55-549; 63-625;

Cigale 14: PG17-PT163; 55-549;

Santa Cruz 43: PG17-PT169

Sydney Yachts: PG18-PT171; 18-175;

Sydney GTS 37: 43-423;

Sydney GTS 43: PG18-PT173;

Winner 12.20: PG20-193;

First 40: 31-304; 32-313; 32-316; 35-344; 36-354; 55-546; 55-547;

First 35: 36-356

Dehler 41: 30-296;

Dehler 44: 79-785;

Dehler 45: 36-356; 79-785;

Luffe 40.04: 30-300; 31-301; 31-303;

XP 38: 56-533; 56-544; 56-555; 67-622;

XP 44: 33-325;

Pacer 430: 36-357;

Pacer 376: 36-357; 66-652; 69-683;

Faurby 424: 36-360; 37-361; 37-363; 37-365;

Comfortina 39: 40-395;

J 133: 43-426; 63-620

J 111: 100-993;

Maxi 11: 99-982;

Arcona yachts: 46-456;

Arcona 410: 47-467; 47-468; 47-469; 48-471;

Arcona 430: 48-472;

Arcona 460: 50-495

Finngulf yachts: 46-456;

Varianta 44: 60-594; 60-595; 60-596; 60-597; 60-598; 64-639;

Imagine 53: 63-628;

Zou 40.2: 63-620

Ker 39: 68-676;

Finn-Flyer 42: 77-762;

Azuree 40: 85-842;

Loft 40: 85-848; 85-852;

Vivace 35: 90-895;

Sailing boats over 49ft

Zeydon 60 : PG 12-119;

JP 54: PG18-PT172;

Salona 60: 70-695;

Stadships: PG20-PT193; 20-195;

Pogo 50: 32-318; 32-319;

X-50: 54-537;

Murtic 52: 54-537;

Decksaloons and pilot house sailing boats

Sirius 32: PG1-PT1

Sirius 35: PG1-PT1; 1-10; 2-18; 50-491; 50-492; 60-559; 60-599;

Sirius 31: PG1-PT5; 2-17; 36-356;

Regina 35: 48-478;

Regina 40: PG11-PT104; 49-481; 49-483;

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Luffe 43DS: PG12-PT111; 12-115; 50-494;

Noordkaper 40: PG14-pt139;

Noordkaper yachts: PG16-PT155

Nordship 36: 30-297; 49-482;

Nordship 38: 49-482; 49-490;

Paulo's pilot house I: 38-376; 39-381; 39-383; 39-384;

Paulo's pilot house II: 69-682

Lyman & Morse 45: 38-379;

CR 38DS: 48-477; 48-478;

CR 40DS: 48-476; 48-478; 48-479; 50-494; 50-496; 50-497; 50-498;

Arcona 40DS: 50-494;

Racers

Figaro 2:pG4-PT36; 4-37; 5-42; 6-52; 6-53; 6-55; 6-56

VOR 70: PG16-PT160; 17-187

Farr 400: 67-661

Soto 40: 96-952;

Lifting keel/centerboarder

Southerly yachts: PG11-PT104;

Allures 45: PG10-PT93; 100-996;

Allures yachts: 25-248;

OVNI 425: 23-228;

OVNI 395 : 68-679; 69-690;

J 108: 67-661

Atlantic 43: 68-67

Boreal 44: 97-970; 98-974;

Multihulls till 34ft

Several Trimarans: 28-273;

Multihulls with 34ft and over

Dragonfly yachts: 26-257;

Dragonfly 35: 26-258; 27-261; 27-262;

Dragonfly 1200: 56-551;

Corsair 37: 28-276;

Farrier 39: 28-277;

Challenge 37: 28-278

Hammerhead 34: 29-385;

Hammerhead 54: 29-288; 30-292;

Trimax 10.80: 29-285;

Sig 45: 54-534; 54-539; 54-540;

Gunboat: 56-551

Fusion: 56-551;

Outremer: 56-551;

Tournier: 56-511;

Classical and Traditional boats

Jclass boats: 54-537;

Tofinou 12: 71-703;

Folck boat: 73-727;

Puffin Yachts: PG14-PT135; 14-138; 16-155;

Bestwind 50: PG12-PT116; 14-123;

Bestevaer 53: PG12-PT116;

Bestevaer yachts: PG16-PT155

Cape George 36: 41-410; 42-412;

Marieholm 33 : 42-412;

This list is not actualized. Please use the advanced search engine of the thread with the name of the model and builder. It works, most of the time.

(actualized till PG100) and it will be no more because that gives a lot of work (500 pages now).

Instead I am actualizing the titles and with the right title the thread search engine (not the one on the top of the page bit the one much below that says search thread) on its advanced option works quite well.

Hello,

Melrna posts on Miami Boat show and the comments of Smackdady about the interest of that thread lead me to think that perhaps I could share more information about sailboats I know and find interesting.

I am interested in boat design (interior and sailing performance) and I go each year at least to one of the main European Boat shows and that means basically Dusseldorf, Paris or Hamburg. On these shows you have the opportunity not only to visit the boats of the main and medium size builders but you have also the opportunity to visit the boats of small and sometime family shipyards.

Normally they build very good sailboats and sometimes they have been doing that for decades. The boats are hugely appreciated by their faithful customers but because they don't advertise their boats and there are very few on the used boat market, they pass unnoticed by the majority of the sail community.

The visit to these boats is a very rewarding experience because they are made with passion by true boat lovers and because when you talk to the guy that is on the boat, you are not talking with a dealer, that many times doesn't know much about boats, but with the builder, or the designer.

Even if you are not a buyer they will have real pleasure in talking with someone that really appreciates and understands their work. Those guys really believe in what they are doing and they do it the best way they can, no matter the cost. In a word, they are in love with what they are doing.
Of course, these boats have to be expensive.

This thread will be mainly about these boats, as a way of letting you know about these gems. Let's see if you are interested. I will not post much. If you want to know more you have just to participate and make questions.

The first one it will be the "Sirius". I have had the pleasure to visit several times their boats and to talk with the builders (father and son).

These boats have the best interiors you can find, or at least that I have seen. Not only the quality, but the design and ergonomy are fantastic. You really won't believe you are in a 32ft boat. Just incredible and amazing; Have a look at it:

Sirius-Werft Plön | Forecabin | 32 DS for 2 forecabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Owner´s cabin | 32 DS 4-berth comfort owner´s cabin
Sirius-Werft Plön | Workshop | 32 DS for 2 workshop

Now that the son is in charge they have modernized the outside look of the new boats, they look fantastic not only inside but also outside. The boats sail well and they have clients as far as Japan.

Sirius-Werft Plön | Versions of decks house | You have the choice

Another interesting point is the way they develop new boats. They work with the clients to collect suggestions on the shape and design of the boats. A truly interesting affair, between passionate clients and passionate builders.

Sirius-Werft Plön | 35 DS | Philosophy

Take a good look at their interesting site and if you find the boat interesting, please let me know, I can add some information.

Sirius-Werft Plön | english | Welcome at website of Sirius-Werft Plön

Regards

Paulo
 
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#6,034 ·
Pelic ano:
I have known Mark Mills since he interned in my office years ago. And no, you do not know what went on in the conversation.

" I find myself aligned with Mills and Paulo over Bob "
Can you explain to me exactly what my position on chines is?
I hope you have been reading carefully.
 
#6,035 ·
Hi Bob -

Am aware of your lengthy and close relationship with Mark, of which you have reminded us on several occasions. Clearly he learned a great deal during his internship with you, and I'm sure it has contributed to his success.

I was referring, specifically, to your "training wheel" analogy and "fashion" (i.e., cosmetic) references. My sense is that Mills would never use chines for either reason, and he does choose to use them, justifying the choice, at least with respect to the 38', in precisely the terms that Paulo has been using, with respect to Open class racers and shorthanded sailing.

That's pretty much my take on the extended dialogue between you and Paulo on this topic. I'd be more engaged, myself, but the friggin' New England winter is totally disrupting my commutes back and forth to work, and cutting into my quality forum time. :D

Best regards,

MrP
 
#6,036 · (Edited)
Luffe 3.6

I think Pelicano was quite clear in what he said and explained well why he said it. That discussion is finished and I don't want this thread to become like that one on steel boats, bitter and nasty.

Changing subject and I hope for good, a very nice narrow modern boat without chines. Quite classical on its lines but also modern in the hull design with the beam pulled back, the Luffe 3.6.







We had talked already about it but a nice movie had turned out with Oluf, its designer at the tiller.



Sailing the new Luffe 3.6 from Olav Taraldsen on Vimeo.
 
#6,039 ·
Re: Luffe 3.6

I think Pelicano was quite clear in what he said and explained well why he said it. That discussion is finished and I don't want this thread to become like that one on steel boats, bitter and nasty.

Changing subject and I hope for good, a very nice narrow modern boat without chines. Quite classical on its lines but also modern in the hull design with the beam pulled back, the Luffe 3.6.

We had talked already about it but a nice movie had turned out with Oluf, its designer at the tiller.
This is really a lovely boat and looks like a joy to sail, upwind and downwind. Doesn't someone who posts regularly to this forum have one in build right now? I seem to recall that this is the case. If so, I can understand why he would want one.

Doesn't fit my design brief, of course, but I want to go fast offshore, downwind, by myself, for extended periods. But if I was going to spend the rest of my life cruising New England and Long Island Sound, this is a boat I would be happy to own. :D
 
#6,037 ·
Pelican:
Maybe you should read what I wrote before coming to a decision on what my postion on chines is. That's what I would do. I presume your understanding of Mark's position on chines is based on that one boat.

Yes I used the training wheel analogy but that was one comment on one kind of boat with one kind of chine. But I really don't think you know what my position on chines is.
I'm not sure I have a "position on chines". I'd love to hear it.

I have said all along the application of chines has to be matched to the specific boat and it's intended target performance. That seems like simple naval architecture to me.
 
#6,038 ·
I have said all along the application of chines has to be matched to the specific boat and it's intended target performance. That seems like simple naval architecture to me.
In which case, there is no disagreement between you and Paulo at all, if your position can be summed up in the paragraph above.

I don't believe anyone in this thread has argued that chines are a go-fast / track-like-a-slot-car design feature that can be applied to any boat and magically transform it into a race winner and/or superior cruising platform. If they did, and I missed it, please point me to the claim(s).

I confess that I don't have the luxury of parsing every word of every post like it was Holy Scripture, but I draw impressions from the aggregate of the exchanges on topics like this one, in which I claim no expertise whatsoever, other than having raced at a fairly high level on boats of every type for over 40 years, and reading as much as I can.

Ultimately, nobody is challenging your credentials as a successful, highly regarded NA, whose opinions on such things as chines deserve to be taken seriously. But I have to agree with Paulo that there has been more heat than light in many of the exchanges in this thread, and for the life of me I don't understand why that is.

Clearly there are solid hydrodynamic and engineering reasons to use chines for particular applications on contemporary racing and cruising boats. Many equally successful NAs do so; other equally successful NAs don't, for similar applications. What we're seeking to understand is what specific factors in the design brief influence the decision to employ them or not.

With respect to Open class race boats, like the IMOCA 60s and Classe 40's, we grasp the value of chines given the primary use to which these boats are put: extended, solo / DH offshore racing, primarily downwind. And we understand why some of the virtues that chines bring in that specific application may also hold for peformance cruisers which also spend a good portion of their lives sailing shorthanded in extended offshore / downwind scenarios (or are intended to; like SUVs, plenty of them barely make it out of the marina for a Friday evening cocktail cruise :p).

Perhaps a question I might address to you is the following: If François Gabart showed up in your office tomorrow, a bag of Euros in his hand, and asked you to design an IMOCA 60 for him, would you build it with chines or not? If so, why? If not, why not? :D

Similarly, if Beneteau commissioned you to design a replacement for the new Oceanis 38, with the design brief of being a stable and comfortable platform for fast offshore cruising by couples, chines or no chines?

I promise to read every word very, very carefully. :)
 
#6,040 ·
Pelican:
Nope I would not design a IMOCA boat with or without chines. I'm comfy here in my beach shack and I don't need the money that badly. But the real reason I would not take that job for any amount of money is that I have never done a boat like that and I'm not sure I would be the best person for the job. In a self indulgent way I'd like to do it but I would not be doing the client a favor. He can go to Farr and get more experience with that kind of boat. My interest is doing the boats I know I can do better than others, the boats I like to use myself. I'd love to sit in on the meetings Gabart would have with the designer he chose. That would be fun. I'd love to have access to all that design research money. For me, now, it's all about enjoying what I do and knowing I do it well.

I'd be happy to draw a boat for Beneteau. Not sure if I'd go with chines or not. It's not that simple a decision for me. I'd have to get into the preliminary design stage and take a look at the benefits offerred by chines if any. I might run some VPP's and compare a chine hull against a non chine hull. Maybe then move the chine around a bit and see if there are any significant changes in performance. The stuff I normally do with VPP's. I play. As I have said over and over I have designed boats with chines. I am not "anti chine" the simplistic way I am painted here. I just view the application of chines specific to the project and not as a blanket panacea recognizing that there are huge variations in chined hulls.

But you see, I could not take a job for Beneteau. I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look. And again, I would not be good at that. There are other designers very good at that modern styling. I want to stay in my comfort zone.


The phones ringing,,,hold on,,,It's Beneteau.
 
#6,041 · (Edited)
Beneteau, looks, tastes and niche markets.

.....
But you see, I could not take a job for Beneteau. I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look. And again, I would not be good at that. There are other designers very good at that modern styling. I want to stay in my comfort zone.
.....
Designing a boat for Beneteau has a simple and challenging program: a boat that has to fulfill the sail cruising needs of the the largest possible number of cruisers and sailors. For that the boat has to look good and be desirable and good looking to the largest possible number of sailors, be comfortable, with a big interior, well designed, one they find very nice, with a good quality, with the best possible cruising amenities, good storage and tankage, sail at least as well as the competition (and that is very well) and have a building that does not make it expensive and can provide a competitive priced boat :a lot of boat for the money and a boat that can be afforded by many.

What you call Euro is simply what most sailors prefer, being them American or European, if not, the design of the boat would be different. The fact that Benetau is the world leader in sales show that they (and their NAs) got it right regarding that program.

You are always remembering Brent S. that he designs just for a very small market niche. Well, what you call your comfort zone, looking by the boat that you give as example or your last designs is also a very small niche in what regards sailing or cruising. A nice one for very rich people that like classical looking boats (the style you call American) but also a less competitive one. You have to design a boat that a rich client likes. A designer for Beneteau has to design not only a boat that thousands like but one that can be afforded by many hundreds.

I don't understand your contempt regarding how Beneteaus looks (I don't want to design Euro decks. I hate the bloated tennis shoe look). That contempt is also a contempt by the tastes of the vast majority of sailors, being them Euro or American. After all Beneteau is also the leader in America or if not it is Jeanneau whose look is not that different. Sailors don't buy boats they don't like or find attractive and the vast majority find Beneteaus and Jeanneaus attractive band nice.

Regards

Paulo
 
#6,042 · (Edited)
Paulo:
You don't get it.

I like to design unique, very well built custom yachts for discerning clients.

Check out Cruising World magazines recent Top 40 Production Yachts of all Time. Three of the top ten boats were my designs. The number one boat was my design. I know production boats. I have thousands. Literally thousands to my credit.

But now I like unique custom boat projects where the build can be amazing and the end result a boat that reflects the client individual approach to life on the water. Beneteaus are out of the question. They are nice boats but they are not for my clients. I would happily do another production boat but it would have to be in a style I liked. I hope that no one is getting the idea that I don't like any Beneteaus. There are some models that I find quite appealing. Others not. I take them individually.
 
#6,044 · (Edited)
Discerning tastes.

Paulo:
You don't get it.

I like to design unique, very well built custom yachts for discerning clients.

Check out Cruising World magazines recent Top 40 Production Yachts of all Time. Three of the top ten boats were my designs. The number one boat was my design. I know production boats. I have thousands. Literally thousands to my credit.

But now I like unique custom boat projects where the build can be amazing and the end result a boat that reflects the client individual approach to life on the water. Beneteaus are out of the question. They are nice boats but they are not for my clients. I would happily do another production boat but it would have to be in a style I liked. I hope that no one is getting the idea that I don't like any Beneteaus. There are some models that I find quite appealing. Others not. I take them individually.
...
Yes I understand quite well what you say but as you pointed out you once designed to the main market, boats that could appeal to many and whose cost make it affordable. The builders of that type of main market boats chose you to design them. I am talking about boats like the Tayana or Valiant and several others that were mass produced and sold in great numbers.

Neither am I taking out any of your relevance as one of the more important NA from the XX century one that in America pushed the boundaries of cruising boat design and give at that time to the general public, meaning sailors, the boats they wanted, better sailboats.

I am only pointing that by our own choice, or not, you are not working on that main market sector anymore and are working on a niche sector that you call your comfort zone. Nothing wrong with that specially if that makes you happy and it is what you want, but the designers that work for Benetau or Jeanneau work not only that niche sector you chose but the main market, performance cruisers, solo racing and crewed racing.

It seems odd and inelegant to me that you consider their work regarding the main cruising sector (in a general) in a negative and depreciating way. I find also odd that you talk about having to design boats in a style you like. An Architect designs for clients not according his particular tastes but according to client tastes and since Beneteau and Jeanneau work the main market that means the tastes of the vast majority of sailors.

Particularly regarding the Oceanis 38 that you considered looking like "a bloated tennis shoe look", it is designed by Conq that expressed in an article what was was his take regarding aesthetics and that is a pure functionalist one: what makes a boat sail better is beautiful. Regarding sailing and that boat many things were taken from solo racers, that him and Finot had been designing from ages and the boat had ended up having the look of a solo racer adapted to cruising. That according to Conq is a positive aesthetically characteristic since in a functionalist way a top racing boat is beautiful by definition and I (like Conq) believe that the fact the boat looks a bit like a solo racer will have a positive response in what regards general tastes. Sailors will like it.







Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste.

regards

Paulo
 
#6,045 ·
Well Paulo, just chalk it up to diversity. Diversity is good. I don't think like you and vice versa. Nothing wrong with that. Diversity. There is no right or wrong. My opiniions are not personal attacks on your choices they are simply my opinions. I am not interested in anyone dictating what my "taste" should be. It's my work and I choose to do it my way. It works well for my clients

"Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste."

That commenty is just plain silly.
 
#6,057 · (Edited)
Silver / B60

... My opiniions are not personal attacks on your choices they are simply my opinions. ...

Quote Paulo:"Regarding the type of clients you have that you describe like "discerning clients", they certainly are rich and want luxury boats but they are also quite conservative in their tastes. A discerning taste may also means a taste for speed in cruising and a boat easy to sail solo (with a luxurious interior) and it seems to me that, contrary to the other NA that also designed by Beneteau and Jeanneau, none of your recent clients has that type of discerning taste."

That commenty is just plain silly.

I have asked you plenty times not to be rude on this thread. I an not silly and resent to be called silly.

I will not use rude language but I will point out that you should look better to what the others say before calling them silly. Or better you should think they are but should not say it. It is called to be polite.

I was talking about your recent works and regarding cruising boats. That boat is a daysailer and a weekend cruiser at most.

But by your rude observation it seems that you consider it a performance daysailer. You could have simply asked, instead of calling me silly, if I did not consider it a performance daysailor and I would have said politely that no, that is not the case. Certainly the boat is a relatively fast daysailor due to its lenght but not a performance one and my opinion is not from now but from many months ago. This is what I said when Faster asked my opinion about it:

....


Certainly a beautiful boat and also an extreme boat regarding several counts:

A 60ft day sailor, very narrow with a small long interior, a big draft and a nice narrow deep bulbed keel.

This is a sailboat that will need a relatively small sail area relatively to its length, a boat that will take advantage of a big LOA and relatively big LWL to be a fast boat, particularly upwind. The narrow hull will not generate a lot of form stability, it is a boat that needs to heel to create RM. With any considerable amount of wind this boat will go fast upwind but with a lot of heel.

I understand and respect the intention to make the boat accordingly with semiotic image of a past traditional model, a long canoe body. That gives a beautiful boat but that double end takes away the possibility of increasing that already small for stability, particularly downwind.

Here you have another American very marrow boat, certainly more sportive, using a shape of hull and transom that will provide more form stability:



But the Silver is a very particular boat certainly for a very particular owner to whom maximizing performance will not be central, neither the interior space in what regards pleasantness or space volume or the possibility to sail in not deep waters. Probably beauty, pleasure of sailing and easy speed are what the owner wants and I have no doubt the boat will provide that.

Anyway, talking about an one off is completely different than talking about a production model. A production model is made to please to a market segment, a one off is made to please a owner. If the owner is completely satisfied and his dreams were fulfilled, than it is a great boat even if it will not please or satisfy the needs of any other sailor. Regarding a production model, it is more complicated since the designer is not trying to satisfy only one client but the needs and desires of many people.
On a performance boat, cruiser or daysailer, sailing potential is the essence of the boat and everything regarding its hull design and rig takes precedence and it is there to increase overall sailing performance.

A performance boat is in what regards the hull and rig has to be a truly functional boat, you don't use there decorative elements or elements that are less effective regarding sailing then others:

You don't use a round transom since that besides providing little drag and good upwind performance is overall less efficient than a transom that provides more form stability without increasing significantly the drag upwind.

You use a balanced hull regarding downwind and upwind best performances and not one that is only maximized for upwind and that will not allow a very good performance downwind.

There is a good reason why rounded bows and very narrow boats are not used today in racing and that's because those shapes and options are not the best in what regards overall performance and on a performance daysailer, cruiser or racer, bettering the performance is what counts.

I will post a daysailer designed under a performance perspective by the Luca Brenta team. It has the same lenght of the Silver and has already some years:













Silly? I don't think so. What I call a performance boat may be different than what you call a performance boat, but not silly. The B60 having a lot more hull form stability than your boat (not only by a superior beam but also by a more efficient transom design) has almost 60% of B/D ratio and this will give you the potential of the boat downwind, without compromising too much (if any) upwind potential. the boat will also have a far better performance reaching.

As I said that is a design with already some years. Probably if the B60 was designed now it would be more like the C42, a Luca Brenta team 2012 design: a bit more beam (even if it still a narrow boat) and chines.



If you were on the market, I mean if someone was building that boat in a small production basis, your boat would have to compete with boats like this one (and there are more) not only in performance as in interior space, cockpit space and overall comfort.

Off course it is not so and as I said before, as long as the client is satisfied, it is a great design;).

Regards

Paulo
 
#6,046 ·
Pelican:
I'm an ex-J24 owner and I admire almost all the J Boat models.
I also admire the Pogo series.
I like the Beneteau First series.
I am a real fan of Nils Jeppeson's work with the X Yachts.
My last boat was a Peter Norlin design.
My SLIVER is as big (for a single hander), radical, comfortable and fast as possible.
My 62' ketch CATARI is just plain comfortable and pretty.

If someone is going to try to put me in a box here they had better bring a really big box.
 
#6,049 · (Edited)


This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?

Thanks to Paulo, Bob (and mediators) for the hot discussion about chines. I totally "get" both arguments, and I understood Bob the first time around on boat behaviour issues, and what to expect. It reminded me of this Elan video, where you see the chined hull maybe becoming a handicap or a challenge on the upwind leg. Quite a tradeoff for a downwind blaster :D

Cheers,

Hans
 
#6,050 ·
http://http://www.youtube.com/embed/P1OddRBV0mw

This is a link to a clip of a 350 that was featured on Sailing Anarchy highlighting the "massive leeway" evident in the video. You start to wonder if the port tack 410 was having similar control issues, but what is evident in the video is what happens when the Elan's chine digs in beyond "ideal" heel, adding flotation aft. Maybe not loosing rudder control, but maybe the shape is lifting the keel too much out of the water, loosing the groove?

Thanks to Paulo, Bob a(nd mediators) for the hot discussion about chines. I totally "get" both arguments, and I understood Bob the first time around on boat behaviour issues, and what to expect. It reminded me of this Elan video, where you see the chined hull maybe becoming a handicap or a challenge on the upwind leg. Quite a tradeoff for a downwind blaster :D

Cheers,

Hans
Hans,
I could not open the link.
Here is another one that has to work.
élan | Sailing Anarchy

Rumen
 
#6,055 ·
I wouldn't draw ay conclusions about the boats in the vid, too many variables.
....
Bob, there is no better way to take conclusions about the sailing performance of a boat than looking at his rating, that is high, or looking at his racing performance, if it is a performance one...and the boat can win making outstanding results in real time even on races with many modern and fast opponents.

A lot of speed and cruising quality for the price, it is clear to all, at lest to all boat testers that sail and know all the new boats on the market. You cannot find anybody that knows the market and says otherwise.

Also a boat that excel in what regards solo performance cruising, at least for the price. A Pogo 10.50 would do better but it costs much more and would not do so well in regatta, being is rating even higher.

Regards

Paulo
 
#6,056 ·
"Bob, there is no better way to take conclusions about the sailing performance of a boat than looking at his rating, that is high, or looking at his racing performance, if it is a performance one...and the boat can win making outstanding results in real time even on races with many modern and fast opponents"

Thank you Paulo. I look at ratings all the time. Always have. I look at race results all the time. Always have. I agree they are very good tools for comparisons.
 
#6,058 ·
To be accurate Paulo that is not a "round transom". That is no transom. We call that a "double ender" and it is exactly what the client asked for. As for stability, we have lots of it with 10' draft and a big bulb the VPP's show the boat be very stilff and the LPS is around 162 degrees! Walking around on the boat at the dock it doesn't move. This is something took into consideration as part of the normal design process. I don't guess.

Luca Brenta has been a favorite designer of mine for many years. I love his work. But he has his style and I have mine. I'll just continue doing my style. In can still admire Brenta's work. If my work annoys you then that's not my problem. My style is in no way connected to your taste in yachts. I suspect we eat different food. We wear different clothes. We listen to diferent music. We like different boats. Diversity is a good thing.
 
#6,066 ·
What a surprise, BAVARIA anounced the BAVARIA EASY 9.7 , 49950€ , on a first sight this boat looks interesting on it's price .
The propose for a day sailing with family and friends very similar to 37ft yacht.
What is surprose for me is the price so low, how it is going to affect to other Bavaria models, with a similiar lenght. How people should analise this boat before buying it?
 
#6,068 · (Edited)
The Big RM

Some more photos and information: what a boat:D













The interior layout is great including a big Dinghy garage and a frontal big sail locker. the boat will be very fast and light. the preliminary designs show two big water ballast (2T each) and a swing keel but all that can be still changed. As usual on RM, a Marc Lombard Design.
 
#6,118 ·
Re: The Big RM

Some more photos and information: what a boat:D
The interior layout is great including a big Dinghy garage and a frontal big sail locker. the boat will be very fast and light. the preliminary designs show two big water ballast (2T each) and a swing keel but all that can be still changed. As usual on RM, a Marc Lombard Design.
Paulo, I've been trying to pay attention to the location of the cockpit winches in the boats i'm most interested in. You don't see that many with the winches grouped so close to the helm as they are here. I like it from a solo'ing stance.

(anyone) I wonder if other companies are receptive to relocating winches similar to this? Are there any drawbacks to locating them in this way?

thanks,
 
#6,069 ·
My favorite sailing team:



Yes, they are not only nice and elegant as they have been training hard, not to mention they are all great sailors. For what I have seen they risk to start the VOR as a favorite team and that would be a first.

I really don't know SCA products and I am not obviously a client but I will tell you that if my family needs some of the stuff they sell, I will gladly buy their products over the competition even if they cost some cents more. It is great what they are doing for sailing.
 
#6,070 · (Edited)
Italians and solo racing.

A bit all over Europe duo and solo racing is on the increase and I will bet that in some years it will be the more popular type of offshore club racing.

Many classic races include now a duo crew category and as all know, the Fastnet was last year won overall by a duo crew.

If we don't consider the French races (that lead this type of racing for many years and were the first to start it) one of the oldest is the Roma per due, that is raced along with a full crewed race (Roma per tuti).

This year's edition will have a big new, They opened a new category: Rome x 1, a solo category on the race.

They will start from Rome, will turn around at Lipari and will return to Rome:

http://www.romaper2.com/pub/news/image_news.php?id=163

The inscriptions are open and they have already many on the solo category, with very different types of boats.

If you are interested, the race will take place at 6 /4/2014:

Roma per Due - Roma per Tutti

Some images from the last one:

 
#6,071 ·
Neo 400 going fast downwind with not too much wind.

Yes, I know, some of you will be sayng: Another downwind speedster:rolleyes:
except that this one, the Neo 400, it is not. It is a top ORC/IRC racer designed to have a good overall performance. I will be cruising but you guys can follow its performance on the world's ORC championship. It will be competing there.



 
#6,072 ·
Kuka-light, a fantastic video, a fantastic boat

Too much talk, today it seems we will have lots of videos and this one is absolutely fantastic:

A 42ft sailboat beating upwind a top Open 60!!!. Well that would not be out of this world if the boat was un upwind maximized one, but it isn't, the Kuka-Light is a kind of a 42 ft Open boat, kind of a 40 class racer a bit bigger and with a canting keel. They say the boat is proportionally 15% lighter than a top Open 60:eek:



The boat was thought and built by the crew with the help of a NA, Schickler Tagliapietra.

Here is the story:

The idea of creating Kuka-Light started to spin around my head when I realised that to improve the Rating of my boat I had to have smaller sails and make the boat slower. This is absurd for a yachtsman used to racing with A class catamarans and with Melges 24 boats. Speed and apparent wind are synonyms of fun for me so I asked myself: why give up on fun and give up having maximum performance?

I decided I wanted to feel the same sensations as when I am sailing my A class also on a keelboat made for demanding regattas such as the Middle Sea Race or Fastnet; building a 40 foot boat that is as light as possible and that uses the apparent wind to maximise its possible performance. I sent the rating to hell! As of today, I am still not totally sure of what we will manage to come up with and if our visions will be proven right. We'll just have to wait and see.

...

The idea to create something special was following the Middle Sea Race 2009 when competing on a Cruiser/Racer (Kuka) Sly 42. We all enjoy racing and then asked ourselves why wouldn't we just want to go fast and forget about handicap and rating systems. Why should we compromise our performance and make a boat slower just to have a better chance to win on handicap. This was going against the whole reason we take part in the Sport in the first place…To sail fast and have fun. Also all cruiser racer have a lot of compromises we did not want. If you are racing you need something created for it.

Kuka-Light, has been created with the fresh approach of not considering rating and handicap rules , but simply perform as best as possible for this size boat. The brief from the owner , a long time friend of mine was to build the fastest 40 ft monohull in the World that could take part in the premier ocean and coastal races and be easily sailed by 6-7 crew.

The brief went out from the following ideas:

1. To set up a crew is never easy and if you have a smaller crew it will be easier to find them and save a lot of money when travelling around.
2. The size of 40 feet was chosen as it is still a size which can be used by normal people, not a professional crew. Also the owner was always using boats of this size.

We started with a clean sheet of paper and applied many principles from our multihull background. The choice of the designers was crucial as we intended to create something different. So an established designer with experience would have problems to forget all what he had done before. In the same time we needed a team of designers capable to do a real race boat. Do to our multihull experience we decided that weight was the highest priority. This resulted in the end with probably the highest power to weight ratio keel boat ever launched.

We then formed a partnership with ST yacht designers who shared our vision of Kuka-Light.


Build | kuka-light

I had already posted about this boat so if you look with the thread search engine you can find more.



kuka-light - The first "giro d'Italia" from Kuka-Light on Vimeo.
 
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