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  #1421  
Old 09-12-2011
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Hi Guys,
I am back from vacation in southern France... In between we have visited Outremer and even the Cannes Boat. With this we got a clear picture about the absolutely convincing advantages of having a catamaran for a circumnavigation with kids.
OK Paulo, for the Mediterranean in Summer it might be expensive and sometime difficult to get a place in the ports - however on the long voyage the space and quality of life on board is beyond comparison. At the same time there ARE ships which are so light that the true catamaran performance is available.
We will leave in 2013 and it is clear now what we will do till than.
We have even had a look to RM yachts and saw the RM1060. Compared with all the Salonas, Dufours and so on it gave a very different impression: Lots of light inside, many smart ideas and made for long voyages. A great interior and interesting advantages due to the plywood hull. (e.g. dramatically reduced chemical outgassing - so good for the kids health) Very likable.
U.
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  #1422  
Old 09-12-2011
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Hi Ulf,

Glad to know that you have decide to leave for a circumnavigation

Regarding the RM 1060 I guess that tastes can be different. Me and my wife like the interior of the RM 1200 but dislike the one from the 1060. The quality of the interior is also low if compared with a Dufour or Salona. But you are right, the boat is set up already for long range voyaging while you would have to prepare a Salona or a Dufour for that propose. Besides I find the boat very expensive for what he offers.

Regarding Cats we can see them more and more on the Charter business but most of them are fat and slow and don't go upwind with waves and strong winds. It is hard to find on the European Market models adapted to Ocean sailing and furthermore in my opinion they represent a bigger risk than monohulls in what regards a circumnavigation with all this weather instability.

Have you heard what happened to Francis Joyion in its attempt for a record circumnavigation?

At the time I was sailing under triple reefed mainsail and with the small ORC [storm jib]. The violence of the squall was such that the sensor, and the anti-capsize alarm did not have time to go off. The wind continued to build very violently and I felt the boat literally catapulted into the air.

IDEC capsizes | The Daily Sail

His cat was huge with an incredible stability and he was on a 3th reef and storm jib when he was blown out of the water. Myself have already been in a freak wind situation where any cruising cat would probably have capsized.

But you are right, even if they were not the kind of boat I would chose to circumnavigate, they offer a space that cannot be mathced by any monohull.

Regards

Paulo
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  #1423  
Old 09-12-2011
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Paulo,
Thanks for the report on the Salona 41. The sailing/motoring performance you reported is definetly noteworthy. Someone in this thread had mentioned the lack of quality interior at a boatshow. How did you feel about it(solid or particleboard?)?
How is the access to the engine, etc.?
You mentioned feeling like on the 2nd floor in the Opium. Was this due to more heeling, or freeboard?
BTW, what is the price of the Salona 41 fully equipped?
Thanks,
Bernd
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  #1424  
Old 09-12-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Paulo,
Thanks for the report on the Salona 41. The sailing/motoring performance you reported is definetly noteworthy. Someone in this thread had mentioned the lack of quality interior at a boatshow. How did you feel about it(solid or particleboard?)?
Hi Bernd,

Nobody is using solid wood on fast sailboats not even the ones that are very expensive. The reason is weight. For solid wood to have the same resistance as prime wood laminate (not really know if this is the right word) it would have to be much thinker and much heavier. Not even on prime very expensive relativelly fast cruising boats like the cruising line of X yachts they use it. Weight is a no no in any sailing boat.

It was Andrews that had said that was not impressed with the Salona quality, but now that he has a Malo he is a bit snob. Of course if we compare it with a Malo or a Najad it is not an even match, those boats cost 3 times more but if you compare it with a Dufour or a Jeanneau it will be better, not in the overall appearance but on the built quality and I would say on the solidity and quality of the accessories and most of all on the hull strength. Of course a Malo or a Najad because they have such a luxurious interior will pay that on overall sailing performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post

How is the access to the engine, etc.?
You mentioned feeling like on the 2nd floor in the Opium. Was this due to more heeling, or freeboard?
BTW, what is the price of the Salona 41 fully equipped?
Thanks,
Bernd
Most production boats have a very good acess to the engine and this one is no exception. A big front opening that includes the stairs and that goes up with hydraulics and stay there and two smaller side ones.

By the way I forgot to mention that the stairs are excellent and going up and down even with the hands occupied is easy and that is a very important feature that is many times overlooked. We had sailed before on an Hanse and the way up and down was.....dangerous!

No, the Opium or other similar performance boat like the Pogo have small freeboards compared with regular cruising boats and probably similar to the one from Salona and on most sailing positions will heel less than a Salona because they have more form stability (more beam).

I am only talking about going close upwind. On that position if you go at the max speed the boat can make the heeling will be similar (25/30º) and than you would be a lot more up on those kind of boats not only because the overall beam is much bigger but also because those boats have max beam were you seat, near the transom while on boats like the Salona max beam is on the middle of the boat and where the wheels-man seat the beam is already noticeable smaller.

The overall difference is quite big: the Pogo 12.50 has the same lenght of the Salona 41 the Pogo beam is 4.5m, the Salona beam is 3.84 but the difference of beam at the transom is much bigger, as I have explained.

You will feel clearly the difference. I don't like the feeling but as I have said this is a personal thing and maybe you just get used to it with time. After all old boats had tiny cockpits and many continue to think that the seaworthiness of a boat is connected with a tiny cockpit, even on 42fts and I certainly don't think that way.

Hum! the price of the Salona full equipped is a difficult question because the boat can assume many configurations, including racing ones.

I can tell you that the price of the basic boat is about 159 000 € and that for 174 000€ you will have a sailaway boat including sails and electronics (including plotter and GPS). Than you have a comfort package that includes heating and a more expensive performance package that really includes some expensive stuff, like lead keel, Epoxy vacuum hull, carbon spinnaker pole, performance mast with rod shrouds and hydraulic backstay adjuster. with the three packs and with the discount that is connected if you buy the boat with time the boat will cost 202 800€.

Than you will have a big list of options to customize the boat, even to the specs of a racing boat and one of the less expensive/performance you can find .

Many would not be interested in the performance package that is expensive (20 000 €) and will spend the money elsewhere. They even are disposed to hear you if the things you want are not on that list and will make all the efforts to give you what you want. That is not usual on production boats and I guess they will have to finish with that when they start to sell more boats because that is great but not practical and expensive for them.

By the way two expensive pieces of equipment that will contribute to making it a race winner are just two things that will make the boat uglier...but lighter and stronger: The nice wood panels (bulkheads) will go out to be substituted by black basalt ( an organic composite similar to carbon) and the interior material ( laminated wood) will be substituted by a much lighter and stronger material. The boat will look more naked (less cabinets) but even so it will be more expensive.

That with a racing keel (that is specially designed taking into count ratings and lower CG) is basically what differentiates the performance version from the racing one that they call IBC specked.

The 37 IBC looks like this:



Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-12-2011 at 03:18 PM.
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  #1425  
Old 09-12-2011
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I have already posted about the x-38p a boat that seems to be very interesting at least for me. We have seen the drawings and the technical specifications and now that the first one is on the water they released the first photos:















The boat seems close to the new Salona 38 that is going to be one of its closest competitors on the regatta circuit. This boat has similar dimensions (weight , beam and length) and marginally a bit more ballast. In what concerns hull shape the X 38 has the beam carried a bit more aft.

the running rigging and winch position seems very similar. The X has a great bowsprit for geenaker that includes the anchor rolling and stand that misses on the Salona 38.

The X-38 is absolutely beautiful on the outside looks but surprisingly the interior does not look so good. The Salona 38 interior looks better and one of the things that is far better on the Salona is the position of the port hull that is situated on the middle of the saloon. The one from the X is on the chart table. It seems to me that the saloon deserves a better outside view than the chart table or the galley

http://www.x-yachts.com/seeems/110669.asp

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-12-2011 at 09:54 PM.
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  #1426  
Old 09-13-2011
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I have said back on this thread that it seemed to me a mistake for Salona to have maintained basically the Salona 37 hull on the new 38.

The Salona 38 hull is basically the hull of the 37 with some minor modifications including the keel. All the interior cockpit and rigging are new. It seemed to me that the new trend with beam brought back had come to stay and had some advantages, commercially and on the water.

Well maybe I was wrong on both counts: the "old" 37 has won in August the European ORCI championship racing against boats like the Finnflyer 36, X-37, T-34 and GS 37 among others.

Take a look at the real times (not compensated) on the two offshore longer races and you will see that in one the Salona 37 was only narrowed beaten by a Bavaria 42 Match and beat all other boats including the very light and hugely expensive Finnflyer 36 and in the other beat everybody.

http://kns.no/filestore/Dokumenter_d...iEuropeans.pdf

Commercially, only a week after they have presented information about the boat on internet they had already sold 8 (one to sydney) and I guess that now that the boat is on the water they have sold some more and this is before the boat hit the European Saloons this fall

I would say that after having tested the boat I was very impressed, more than I was impressed looking at the drawings and published pictures. The boat is much nicer than the 37 and the two well setup give a huge cockpit for a 38ft while permitting a big floor locker on the stern.

Boating News Sydney - Boating News, Reviews and Articles

The boat was tested by American's cup Skipper Dean Barker that said nice things about the boat.

Here is one movie of that test. Look how the boat goes fast with very little wind (the characteristic that had impressed me more on the test sail).

Salona 38 premiere.flv - YouTube

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 09-13-2011 at 03:02 PM.
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  #1427  
Old 09-13-2011
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Paulo is quite correct about comparative performance of things like Malo v more spirited alternatives. Although we are pretty happy with our boats performance and handling there is no way we are in the same ball park as things like the new Salona , Hanse , Beneteau etc.

Its horses for courses.

I'm not one to knock more modern designs in general, though I did find that finishing detail, even on the Salona 41 we saw in Sydney disappointed me,
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Last edited by tdw; 09-13-2011 at 07:25 PM.
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  #1428  
Old 09-14-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tdw View Post
Paulo is quite correct about comparative performance of things like Malo v more spirited alternatives. Although we are pretty happy with our boats performance and handling there is no way we are in the same ball park as things like the new Salona , Hanse , Beneteau etc.

Its horses for courses.

I'm not one to knock more modern designs in general, though I did find that finishing detail, even on the Salona 41 we saw in Sydney disappointed me,
Hei Andrews!

About performances you mix on the same bag Salona, Hanse and Benetau. They belong to different bags

Even if the new Benetau 41 would be faster than the Malo 40 the difference will be comparatively smaller than the difference between the Benetau and the Salona 41.

The Malo weights about more 1200kg than the Oceanis (Benetau) and has about more 3m2 of sail area. That extra sail would not be sufficient to compensate in light wind the extra weight even considering that the more fuller Benetau hull design will draw more water but I am quite sure that in medium winds the Malo will point better to the wind and will sail as fast as the Benetau (except downwind). With really strong winds the Benetau downwind performance will remain better but the Malo will be much better upwind and an overall much better sailing boat.

Comparing the Benetau 41 with the Salona 41, the Benetau will have about the same difference in weight the Benetau has to the Malo (1200kg more) but instead of having less sail the Salona has more sail and not a little bit, but almost more 30m2. The Salona is also slimmer (even more than the Malo) and draws less water than the Benetau.

The Salona will be a much better sailing boat than the Oceanis and compared with the Malo really incomparably more faster, but also more nervous and needing a lot more reefing. A bit like a sports car compared with an American good sedan with an automatic gearbox

Regarding those bags, please put the Salona with Xp-yacht, Dehler, First, Grand-Soleil and the Benetau on the Bag that contains Jeanneau, Hanse, Bavaria, Hunter and so on

You can get another bag for Malo, Najad, Halberg-Rassy, Sweeden Yacht, Morris and so on

By the way, Malo is preparing the presentation of a new 40 that I think would be a slightly improved boat but much on the same lines the previous boat and I would say that I like those lines that are classic but not old. I would say that the boat makes a lot of sense for what he is designed for. The only thing I would like them to change is the interior and the kind of materials that they use (solid wood) that makes the boat unnecessarily heavy but I guess that the tipical Malo owner would not like that change After all the ones that want a cruising boat with the same sailing program and quality but with a maximized performance have already X yacht line of cruising boats.

Andrews, about finishing detail on the Salona 41, you will always be disappointed with the finish detail of a 200 000€ boat if you compare it with a finish detail of a 400 000€ boat. Anyway I was not talking about finish detail but about the quality of the interior and that is not quite the same thing. The finish can be similar but the materials can be better and that was what I was talking about.

Regards

Paulo
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Old 09-14-2011
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I had posted already about the Hanse 385. At the time only the drawings were available and I said that it looked like a great boat. Well, it seems that what looked really good were the drawings. I don't remember of having being so mislead by the drawings compared with the real thingt

Take a look:














The interior of this one one makes the Dehler look good. It is difficult to be more IKEA. Even a Bavaria looks better

On the outside the boats looks like an Hanse 40 that already look "old", it has no traveller and the cockpit look really small (or is that guy that is at the wheel that is huge)

So sorry folks, I had said that this one looked good on the drawings and I said that it was interesting. After looking at the photos I really have changed opinion.

Last edited by PCP; 09-14-2011 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 09-15-2011
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38ft seems to be a size that is interesting more and more builders and that means that there is a growing market for it. For some years only a lonely Bavaria 38 was an option for the ones that thought that 40 was too big and 36ft too small. Then some years back appeared the Elan 38 and last year and this year 6 new 38ft boats appeared on the market: The Dufour 375, the XC 38, the Xp 38, the Hanse 385, the Jeanneau 379 and the Salona 38.

38ft boat represent an interesting option for the ones that sail Solo most of the time or have a wife that is not really a great help. The boats chosen for the Transquadra (and its results) show that even good solo sailors can have a better performance with a smaller boat (less than 40ft), a boat they can really fully control and exploit, than with bigger boats. The typical chosen size is a 35ft, but off course they use spinnakers downwind while the typical fast cruiser will use a geenaker, that is a lot easier to use.

2ft and about a ton less will also make maneuvering in the marina a lot easier than with a 40ft, specially in what concerns taking alone the boat out of a tight place.

One of those new 38ft that we had already posted about was the Jeanneau 379, but we only had looked at the drawings. Now that is on the water, let's look at the photos:




















Well, I have said that on the drawings the Hanse 385 looked better but I have to say that on the photos that is not so. The Jeanneau looks a lot better, specially on the interior.

On the outside looks, even if the boat does not look so god as the 409 (proportionally more free-board) still looks better than the Hanse and it has the added advantage of having a small traveler while the Hanse has none.

Both boats have something I don't like, a small cockpit with the space affected to the boat maneuver ridiculous small, and that includes a very limited space for the wheel man and only on winch on each side of the boat.

Compare it with the cockpit of the Xp 38 or with the one from the Salona 38. I have pleasure sailing the boat and I want to do it with ease without feeling cramped on a small space




Last edited by PCP; 09-15-2011 at 11:35 AM.
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