Interesting Sailboats

[bjung]

Paulo,
I'm not trying to argue the speed potential of modern designs, but the reality while cruising long distances. Also, the hullspeed you calculated is with the waterline at rest, not heeling...
But, let's cut right through polars and theory, and take a look at the Sydney Hobart line honours 2010 compared to 1964.
The Freya beat: First 40, Pogo 40 , X43, Salona 44 retired, and the list goes on..
The same goes for 2009 and 2008. The Freya was between 4d01hr to 4d15hr in a 3 year stretch. Take a look at all the boats, not able to make that time today. The list is full of rockets. Granted, conditions play a roll, but they do while cruising as well.
Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2010..
Honestly, not my dreamboat, but a fast one even by todays standards, and solid as a rock.
Give credit where credit is due....
Sorry for the sidetrack.

Bernd

[myocean]

Originally Posted by PCP

and the RM bets on the innovation, but some youth problems (heavy steering an unappealing interior)

I have a different opinion about the RM 1060 interior. From my point of view this is very convenient, easy to clean, lightweight and has a modern styling leaving away all the dark wood which is so common.The round edges are a good safety feature. I like it!
I can imagine that even the new RM 1260 will come with such an interior.

[PCP]

Originally Posted by bjung

Paulo,
...
But, let's cut right through polars and theory, and take a look at the Sydney Hobart line honours 2010 compared to 1964.
The Freya beat: First 40, Pogo 40 , X43, Salona 44 retired, and the list goes on..
The same goes for 2009 and 2008. The Freya was between 4d01hr to 4d15hr in a 3 year stretch. Take a look at all the boats, not able to make that time today. The list is full of rockets. Granted, conditions play a roll, but they do while cruising as well.
Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2010..
Honestly, not my dreamboat, but a fast one even by todays standards, and solid as a rock.
Give credit where credit is due....
Sorry for the sidetrack.

Bernd

Bernd, I was looking for a Freya on the 2010 edition of SH but obviously there is not one. I couldn't believe you were comparing results of two different races .

That does not make any sense, wind and sea conditions vary widely and it is no unusual times that are almost the double between two races. Saying that a Freya beaten a First 40 or a Pogo 40 referring the times in two different races is absurd. I could beat any racing sailboat with a Bavaria 36 given the right weather: No wind for the other boats, 20k on the quarter for me

The fact remains that Freya 39 performance (not considering any handicap) as a race boat has only a historic relevance, otherwise you woulds have a lot of boats like the Freya trying to win the Sydney-Hobart race today. The boats that make today the better time in real time for a given length are the fastest boats.

About what a Freya 39 is worth today have a look at this results of a 3th rate race with old boats. I mean even the "modern" boats are old:

Winter Series 2010 A Class Race Results

Here you can see that the Freya 39 is regularly beaten by a Beneteau 32.5 and by a Beneteau 32 (not even a First). You can also see that the Freya 39 is consistently the slowest boat even if most of the boats are smaller and none is a recent cruiser racer.

This is not the place to pursue this kind of discussion. There is a thread were old boat performance is compared with modern boat performance, something like "bluewater boats that sail well with light wind" or something like that.

Regards

Paulo

[PCP]

Originally Posted by myocean

I have a different opinion about the RM 1060 interior. From my point of view this is very convenient, easy to clean, lightweight and has a modern styling leaving away all the dark wood which is so common.The round edges are a good safety feature. I like it!
I can imagine that even the new RM 1260 will come with such an interior.

Well, I guess that we cannot have all the same taste. That all light grey interior looks too clean for me, like something out of an hospital

I prefer the interior of the "old" 1200, a lot warmer for my taste, or the one from the Opium 39, with all that teak:

[myocean]

Yes, but that is not Pogo but Opium.

[PCP]

More nominated boats for this year's European boat contest. This ones are for the Luxury cruisers category and that is another way of saying non budget cruisers or the kind of boats we all dream about but that only few have the means to have

Sense 50

Sense 50

Sense50

Sense 50

Sense 50


Halberg-Rassy 64

HR64

HR 64

HR 64




Amel 64

Amel 64

Amel 64

Amel 64


Oyster 625

Oyster 625

Oyster 625

Oyster 625

Oyster 625


Bestewind 50

BW50

BW 50

BW50

BW50

BW50



No, suppose you can have one of those for free, what would be your choice?

[PCP]

Originally Posted by myocean

Yes, but that is not Pogo but Opium.

Oops!!!! I thougt Opium and wrote Pogo Actually I don't like the Pogo interior. It is alright for sailing, not for living, but that is just me.

[bjung]

Originally Posted by PCP

Bernd, I was looking for a Freya on the 2010 edition of SH but obviously there is not one. I couldn't believe you were comparing results of two different races .

That does not make any sense, wind and sea conditions vary widely and it is no unusual times that are almost the double between two races. Saying that a Freya beaten a First 40 or a Pogo 40 referring the times in two different races is absurd. I could beat any racing sailboat with a Bavaria 36 given the right weather: No wind for the other boats, 20k on the quarter for me

Paulo,
Yes, it could quite possibly be absurd to do that. But I was merely using the same "absurd" reasoning YOU did in comparing Capado's (one) Transat time with that of s/v Foxglove. Two differrent Transats...
I tried to provide more statistical samples of the same leg to look at averages.
But, you are correct, this is not the thread for this discussion.
I have contacted a few Freya 39 owners for their input/ averages, and will pm you with my findings, if it is of interrest to you.
Now back to Pogos, err... Opiums.
Bernd

[PCP]

Originally Posted by bjung

Paulo,
Yes, it could quite possibly be absurd to do that. But I was merely using the same "absurd" reasoning YOU did in comparing Capado's (one) Transat time with that of s/v Foxglove. Two differrent Transats...
....
Bernd

Yes, not the best comparison but not the same thing. The Freya 39 owner that I quoted said:

"As a cruising yacht Foxglove...She ... has a surprising turn of speed when sailed well. Her best time across the atlantic - which she has crossed many times - is 19 days. Not bad for an old girl."

Foxy - The Voyage of Foxglove

The owner said that the boat crossed many times and the best time was 19 days and give the 19 days as a good example of its speed. Off course he may have not been lucky on his many crossings and the Fox 10.20 could be extremely lucky in its only attempt, not very probable since the Freya owner seems to be quite satisfied with the best time his boat has made.

I know that the Freya has a good upwind performance but an Atlantic crossing or a circumnavigation following the trade winds is just were the difference to a modern planning boat is bigger. Crossing the Atlantic with the trade winds you can have constant 25 to 30K downwind wind for days, even weeks. This means between 10 and 15K to a modern planning hull and between 8 and 9K for a 39 heavy displacement boat.

Make no mistake, I like classic boats, I even prefer them older than the Freya but their performance is what it is. If the boat was a cruiser racer it can still be remarkably fast if compared with some cruisers, but obviously you cannot compare it with the performance of modern cruiser racers: A huge difference downwind some difference in upwind sailing. Besides modern boats have a much bigger LWL for a given boat size (the Freya 39 is really a 44ft boat and pay as such in a marina) and therefore modern boats have a bigger hull speed for the same LOA but most of all modern boats are much more easier to drive to hull speed and even a bit over and that permits them a much better average speed even upwind.

Regards

Paulo

[PCP]

Originally Posted by bjung

...
But, let's cut right through polars and theory, and take a look at the Sydney Hobart line honours 2010 compared to 1964.
The Freya beat: First 40, Pogo 40 , X43, Salona 44 retired, and the list goes on..
The same goes for 2009 and 2008. The Freya was between 4d01hr to 4d15hr in a 3 year stretch. Take a look at all the boats, not able to make that time today. The list is full of rockets. Granted, conditions play a roll, but they do while cruising as well.
[url=http://rolexsydneyhobart.com/standings_ext.asp?RaceId=94]Rolex ...

Bernd

Even considering that makes no sense comparing results from diferent races those results seem odd to me. An they are odd. Bernd, you are looking to compensated (handicap) times. That does not mean nothing. You have to look at elapsed times (real times).

They only have real times for Freya in 1963 (4days 15 hours 17m) and 1964 (4.01.17).

This last Sydney Hobart was particularly difficult and slow. The First 40 make it in 4.02.08. Two true, the First that lead all the race in compensated (and that was way ahead of the second First) had to retire with a stupid problem: Engine not working and unable to charge batteries.

The 2009 edition was also a difficult and slow one. A First 40 won in compensated. He made 3.23.30.

The 2008 edition was a "normal" one. There First 40 didn't exist, the Pogo 40 made 3.02.34. The 2007 was also average and the same Pogo made 3.02.34.

This is not a "good" race for the Pogo 40. This is not a downwind race and the SD-H is known for a lot of upwind sailing in difficult conditions. Since it become racing the SD-H the First 40 had always done better than the Pogo40.

These results seem more "normal" to me

Regards

Paulo