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  #1521  
Old 10-17-2011
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Looks like your typing is faster than mine, Paulo....
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  #1522  
Old 10-17-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daviid View Post
Hi Paulo

Thanks for the detailed response

A couple of added comments as they spring to mind:
...
• The standard size of the sails on the J36i per the Jeanneau website is 64.2m2 which compares with 63.0 m2 for the D34e. The sail area should therefore not make any meaningful difference to the tenderness of the yachts. My understanding is that the roller furling main does not reduce the sail size of the main but I may be wrong and your information may therefore be more accurate. Euromarine’s website and Yacht advisor give specific details of the J36i that we sailed but are silent as regards the total sail area. If the sail area was 56.4 m2, then this is clearly the reason for the difference in feel in the gusts. In fairness, I must say that I felt that the main was a little smaller when we were sailing.

..
• Regarding light wind performance, we found both yachts performed really well. I am not sure which one performed better. The D/L ratios are 167 on the J36i and 198 on the D34e with the J36i have a proportionately longer LWL. This would suggest that the J36i should be faster but if the sail area was only 56.4m2 then the D34e would get the nod;

...
• Re the traveller in the cockpit, I really feel torn over this issue. On the one hand, my sailing experience with having it to hand in the D34e was significantly better than on the J36i. On the other hand, not having protection from a bimini, even a small one over the helm, was not ideal. Also if there is only a small bimini over the helm, what happens to the others that are sailing with you in terms of sun protection – they can’t all gather around the helm and they are not going to want to spend their time below decks ... Having a traveller in the cockpit for racing and for competitive sailing is a no-brainer but for cruising and making sure that everyone is protected from the sun, I am not convinced. If there is another solution to this, I would love to know about it.

David
Hello David,

Regarding sail area, the sail area you mention is the one with the standard mast. You had a furling mast so the sail of the main is 23.4m2 and that with the 33m2 genoa will give it 56.4m2.

http://www.firstclasssailing.com/por...36i%20spec.pdf

In what regards sailing in light wind (less than 8K) LWL does not matter because the boats will not reach near hull speed. What counts is whetted surface, prismatic coefficient, sail area and sail quality. In all counts the Dufour is better so I have no doubt that it is faster in light winds.

As I have said to you it is not easy to see differences in speed between not very different boats if they are not both in the water at the same time. We are talking here about a difference of less than a 1K.

Regarding the Bimini and travelers yes there are other solution, the one that is used by Malo and Hunter among others, that is to have the traveler on an arch. That way you can have a big bimini and a traveler more near the wheel but no way as easy to operate than the one on the Dufour. It also has to be a small one.

Anyway with a big bimini you will not be able to see the sails so that will really reduce your ability to trim them. You say that the Jeanneau permitted to reduce the size of the bimini to use it while you sail but that way you will not be able to cover all the cockpit and the guests, making not different that the smaller ones we are talking about

For casual sailing and cruising with guests the ideal is not to have a traveler and that's why most of the new cruisers don't have one.

Like always everything in a boat is a compromise and you have to choose your own. Talking about compromises do you have tried to roll a big bimini when the wind is rising? I have and I can tell you that is a messy and dangerous business

This is the bimini that I was talking about, I mean for using while sailing on a boat with an aft traveler:



Again thanks for posting.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-17-2011 at 09:39 AM.
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  #1523  
Old 10-17-2011
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Paolo, on my Jeanneau 45.2 my bimini had two lexan windows which allowed me to look at sail trin from either of the helm positions. Worked very well and had sun shades when not needed. The harken traveler was on the coach roof - which never bothered me as a quick touch on the autopilot let me go forward and adjust it.

Reading all your posts, I get the impression that you are a little conflicted - planing hull for downwind speed versus a fine hull which goes better to windward. The same goes for comfortable cruising versus a boat designed for racing So many compromises!
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  #1524  
Old 10-17-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bjung View Post
Seems that Najad will continue under Nord West.
The future for Najad is secured

There are many reasons why Poland is turning into an industrial powerhouse. There were a lot of financial incentives for companies to start production facilities in Poland about 10 years ago. And it does help, that the polish workers (although highly skilled ), make only a fraction of their french colleagues, work more than 35 hrs/wk, and are generally more motivated to put down a good days work.
I looked at the Delphia at the Annapolis show, and thought it was a step above the Jeanneau/ Beneteau/ Dufour craftsmanship and finish.
Paulo, any input from the other side of the pond, as to Delphia's reputation?
Bernd
Bernd, I don't think Delphia has a poor quality than main line Bavaria and Benetau. They have a huge experience (do you know that they makes 7 times more Quicksilver and Cortina than Delphia) with 300 boats a year and they use good products:

http://www.aoc-resins.com/images/upl...se_Delphia.pdf

Were I think they have a slight handicap is on design, exterior and interior but they are catching up and the bigger boats are showing it.

However they have normally a B/D higher than the other big mass production cruising boats and I would say that is an advantage to me.

d47

Virtual Tour Created By Easypano

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvOyGpiYvuU

Regards

Paulo
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  #1525  
Old 10-17-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arpegecap View Post
Paolo, on my Jeanneau 45.2 my bimini had two lexan windows which allowed me to look at sail trin from either of the helm positions. Worked very well and had sun shades when not needed. The harken traveler was on the coach roof - which never bothered me as a quick touch on the autopilot let me go forward and adjust it.

Reading all your posts, I get the impression that you are a little conflicted - planing hull for downwind speed versus a fine hull which goes better to windward. The same goes for comfortable cruising versus a boat designed for racing So many compromises!
Hi, and welcome to the thread,

Lexan windows are an improvement but will never give you the same view as nothing in between and besides they will not make shade, letting the sun coming in.

Yes, you are right about the compromises but wrong in thinking that I don't know what are my compromises. After all this years, a lot of boat testing and some comprehension of basic boat design principles, I know them very well, including price and the type of boat that best suits them

But that does not mean that I do not understand that for other sailors, different priorities are more important and therefore finish with a different ideal boat, like yourself.

We all want a boat that sails well and a comfortable boat. The question here is how well do you want it to sail and how comfortable do you want it to be and what is more important on that compromise?

Between a boat designed for racing and a boat designed for casual sailing while cruising but maximizing comfort for all including the skipper, there is a full range of choices for the ones that value cruising but to whom the pleasure of sailing is more important than maximum comfort.

There is no RIGHT boat in what concerns cruising boats, just the right boat to each sailor and that means a huge variety of cruising boats. The market is a reflex of that.


My choice is not even the more radical one in what regards comfort among the ones that post on this thread. Others have chosen more "radical" approaches (faster sailing) and they sail with the family that at least in one of the cases also like to have fun while sailing and they do not race or intend to race.

By the way, it is PAULO, not Paolo,

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-17-2011 at 11:15 AM.
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  #1526  
Old 10-17-2011
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I don't think that I ever posted about Solaris, I really don't know why, certainly not because they are not interesting...It is one of those that have been forgotten. Not anymore

For many years Solaris have been doing big sailing boats. the smaller one was a 44ft. Not anymore, they have in the water a new 37ft. We have to go back 30 years to find in its line a boat as smaller as a 37ft. Yes this brand as a tradition and even if abroad is not very well known all Italians know it as a top boat with very good finish...and a price to match.

The new 37 is beautiful, on the cruiser-racer tradition, like the Grand Soleil 39 and Salona 38, with whom shares some resemblances, on the deck, layout and global design. The stern is a bit more brought back and it has a progressive chine on the hull.

It was designed by one of the most creative naval architects, the Argentinian Soto Acebal that among others have designed several wally.

The price? lets not talk about that, if you ask you cannot have it. I would just say that is more expensive than the Grand Soleil 39 and that one is much more expensive than the Salona 38.
























General characteristics

LOA 11.40 m
LWL 10.45m
Beam 3.85 m
Draft 2.40m - 2.10m opt.
Displacement 7,100 kg
Ballast 2,700 kg

Sail area 78 sqm
Genoa 34 sqm
Mainsail 44 sqm

Engine
Volvo Penta D1-30 30 hp optional D2-30 40 hp
Transmission S-Drive
Tanks
Water 320 l
Fuel 200 l

Last edited by PCP; 10-17-2011 at 05:26 PM.
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  #1527  
Old 10-17-2011
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I cannot resist to post this beautiful interior:






It seems one of the best I ever saw in a 40ft boat, cozy, with great outside views, very well finished and it is from a fast cruiser too, one with a good hull and a good D/B ratio, the Wauquiez centurion 40s, now named 40s2. I have posted about it a week ago.




This interior and that hull deserved a global update on the boat design and not just on the transom
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  #1528  
Old 10-17-2011
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biminis on racer-gone-cruising

Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Hello David,

Regarding sail area, the sail area you mention is the one with the standard mast. You had a furling mast so the sail of the main is 23.4m2 and that with the 33m2 genoa will give it 56.4m2.

http://www.firstclasssailing.com/por...36i%20spec.pdf

In what regards sailing in light wind (less than 8K) LWL does not matter because the boats will not reach near hull speed. What counts is whetted surface, prismatic coefficient, sail area and sail quality. In all counts the Dufour is better so I have no doubt that it is faster in light winds.

As I have said to you it is not easy to see differences in speed between not very different boats if they are not both in the water at the same time. We are talking here about a difference of less than a 1K.

Regarding the Bimini and travelers yes there are other solution, the one that is used by Malo and Hunter among others, that is to have the traveler on an arch. That way you can have a big bimini and a traveler more near the wheel but no way as easy to operate than the one on the Dufour. It also has to be a small one.

Anyway with a big bimini you will not be able to see the sails so that will really reduce your ability to trim them. You say that the Jeanneau permitted to reduce the size of the bimini to use it while you sail but that way you will not be able to cover all the cockpit and the guests, making not different that the smaller ones we are talking about

For casual sailing and cruising with guests the ideal is not to have a traveler and that's why most of the new cruisers don't have one.

Like always everything in a boat is a compromise and you have to choose your own. Talking about compromises do you have tried to roll a big bimini when the wind is rising? I have and I can tell you that is a messy and dangerous business

This is the bimini that I was talking about, I mean for using while sailing on a boat with an aft traveler:



Again thanks for posting.

Regards

Paulo

Best of both worlds bimini. For captain and crew, with zippered joint at anchor. One of many "cruising mods" to my J35. Rollup window for spray.
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  #1529  
Old 10-18-2011
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Biminis on racer gone cruising

I love the zipped extention for the bimini at anchor - way better than a boom tent for my money even if it gives slightly less sun protection - seems like it would be much quicker and easier to erect.

Also like the size of the helm bimini on the J-boat - some I have seen are too small.

Paulo, regarding LWL and speed in light winds, thanks for the information but what on earth is prismatic coefficient?

Also while we are on the topic, I have never really understood the relevance of hull speed. The polars for a particular yacht often show speeds that are well above hull speed and most yachts seem to have a similar hull speed but are most certainly not similar in terms of their ability to go fast. A Salona 37 for example has a hull speed of 7.7 whilst the new Dufour 375 has a hull speed of 7.6 ie: almost the same. We all know how fast the Salona 37 is.

David
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  #1530  
Old 10-18-2011
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Let's leave a more detailed explanation on Hull speed for when I have more time (I have already talked about it on this thread or in another) however I would say that LWL is always important in a sailboat and that's why bigger boats are generally faster than smaller boats.

A sailboat will approach easily near its hull speed and after that the "power" needed to go over it will increase rapidly and exponentially.

However there is a way to trick hull speed and that is when a boat partially floats over the water. The hulls designed to do that are called planning hulls and the majority of motor yachts have them but they can also be find in some modern cruising sailboats (and almost all racing sailboats) that have a hull designed to plan.

Talking about cruising boats we would be talking about the Pogo, the Opium 39, the Elan 350, or the Cigale 16. These boats need to be lighter, carry a lot of sail and have a larger and a shallow hull that can facilitate planing.

Prismatic coefficient is very important regarding the easiness or power a boat needs to reach hull speed. For instance a monohull america's cup boat has a very good prismatic coefficient because it is a displacement boat (not a planing one) but designed for reaching hull speed with the less possible effort (less wind and power).

Prismatic coefficient is also a very important parameter in what regards the drag induced by a boat passing waves. The better the coefficient, less speed the boat will lose and less power will need to maintain a speed near hull speed.

For instance, an Opiun 39 will be better downwind because it can plan more easely than a Salona 38, but a Salona 38 will be better upwind against waves mainly because its prismatic coefficient is a lot better.

Of course this is a simplification and other factors are also relevant.


I guess this is a good basic explanation about what is prismatic coefficient:



Prismatic Coefficient is a mathematical measurement of the relative shape of the bow and stern of the boat. It displays the ratio of the underwater volume of the hull relative to a rectangular block.

In simplistic terms, the greater degree the boat is like a planing hull – think Open 40 or Viper 640 (square-shaped) the higher the number. The more smooth of a curve – think most S&S wineglass shape designs – the lower the number.

C(p) refers to the underwater shape – not the overhead picture of the hull. So it is a three-dimensional representation of the hull and it’s likelihood to pound but also to plane. A low C(p) indicates a full midsection and fine ends, while a high C(p) indicates a boat with fuller ends (think the modern trend toward flat-sterned sailboats).

Most cruising boats would prefer a lower C(p), as it will mean a smoother ride in most conditions.

Most racing boats will prefer higher numbers, making it easier to plane.
One major compromise is interior space – rectangles (high C(p)) have more space, lower C (p) hulls have less space.

Prismatic Coefficient measures the rate of change in the hull from bow to midsection to stern. The faster this rate of change in shape (imagine a hull which reached full beam in the first 2 feet of a thirty-foot boat – it would be really slow, and have a very high prismatic coefficient at low speeds. But once it planed, it would actually be very fast.) the more drag when in displacement mode.


Boat Design: Seven Things You Should Know About The Prismatic Coefficient | Daily Sailing News from North American Sailor



Regarding the importance of prismatic coefficient and wave drag take a look here:



There are three main sources of the drag on a boat hull, namely skin friction (due to the roughness of the hull surface), form drag (due to the effort required to force the flow apart, as the hull moves through the water) and wave drag.

The connection between waves and drag is very different from that for other two sources. Skin friction and form drag can both be measured by the loss of energy to turbulence. However, wave drag is due energy which is radiated away, as the waves generated by the hull propagate outward....

The wave is basically a result of the water pushed aside as the hull moves through. For a given hull displacement, there is not much we can do about the amount of water pushed aside. We can, however, have some effect on the amount of the flow distortion which goes into the long wave, and how much goes into shorter waves.

This point is best introduced by considering the waves generated by a barge. When it moves, a large bow wave and stern wave are generated, but little occurs in between. Obviously, a barge is not a low-drag hull form, but it does what we want - if, perhaps, in the wrong way. Short waves are generated bow and stern, but with straight sides along most of the hull, there is little to generate the long wave. In short, for high-speed operations, we need a "full hull".

We express the "full hull" property by the prismatic coefficient, which is the ratio of volume displaced to the product of waterline length and maximum cross-sectional area. A craft like a barge has a prismatic coefficient close to 1.0, while one with very slender ends can have a value of about 0.5 or less..
.


Untitled

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-18-2011 at 07:57 AM.
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