Interesting Sailboats - Page 154 - SailNet Community

   Search Sailnet:

 forums  store  


Quick Menu
Forums           
Articles          
Galleries        
Boat Reviews  
Classifieds     
Search SailNet 
Boat Search (new)

Shop the
SailNet Store
Anchor Locker
Boatbuilding & Repair
Charts
Clothing
Electrical
Electronics
Engine
Hatches and Portlights
Interior And Galley
Maintenance
Marine Electronics
Navigation
Other Items
Plumbing and Pumps
Rigging
Safety
Sailing Hardware
Trailer & Watersports
Clearance Items

Advertise Here






Go Back   SailNet Community > On Board > Boat Review and Purchase Forum
 Not a Member? 


Like Tree1266Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1531  
Old 10-18-2011
Arpegecap's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 62
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
Arpegecap is on a distinguished road
Thanks Paulo - nice refresher on Prismatic coefficients.

Best,
Bob
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1532  
Old 10-18-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,170
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Hey guys, look at this beauty:





It looks like a small Soto 40 with a cabin. I like it

Just perfect for day sailing or some days of coastal cruising, not to mention racing. It should be a blast.

It is the new A27

A27 Specifications
Hull Length: 8.35 m
Beam: 2.98 m
Draft keel version: 1.75 m
Swinging keel draft: 1.75 m / 0.85 m
Displacement: 2150 kg env.
upwind sail: 42.5 m²
Asymetric Spi: 71 m²
Design: Joubert-Nivelt
Base Boat: € 50,000.00 retail, ex yard, as Taxes
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1533  
Old 10-18-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 255
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 4
G1000 is on a distinguished road
Paulo, not sure, but have you posted about Mylius Yachts?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1534  
Old 10-18-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,170
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
Paulo, not sure, but have you posted about Mylius Yachts?
Well, yes and no.

I have posted two pictures of the Mylius I like more, the 11E25 but I did not said it was a Mylius. It was in a post about beautiful Italian boats.

The reason I have not posted is because I post mainly about new boats and the last one from Mylius is the 14E and that is a 2007 boat.

My favorite is the 37ft that is a 2006 boat and still looks like a new boat to me:









The 11E25 is incredibly light, 4900kg, especially if we take into consideration that it has a large ballast 1950kg and a big draft, with all the ballast in a bulb and that makes it a very stiff, powerful boat with a sail area upwind of 80 m2, with a jib or 100m2 with a code 0.

I have to say that all the lightness is a bit frightening to me. The boat uses epoxy and some structural carbon reinforcements and like the Salona is made using infusion techniques but it is not a carbon boat. I guess that the difference in weight for the Saloma, Solaris or Grand Soleil or X yachts, to name a few, has to be paid on an inferior boat strength. Maybe the others are too strong

I guess this have no importance given the typical boat use. This one is not designed to cross oceans but to have fun!

It is a mix of daysailor with a cruiser. The interior is innovative but nothing special and it is small for a 37ft because they use a lot of space on the exterior and that makes the cabin smaller but more then enough for the intended use. Who cares, the boat is just beautiful and that large "bed"aft, how...

Their site sucks. To see the interior of the boat look here:

Catalogue - Brochure Mylius 11E25 - ELMADA - (Version PDF) - page 2



Finally this year Mylius is coming with a new boat, a big one with 19m :






Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-18-2011 at 04:41 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1535  
Old 10-18-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 255
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 4
G1000 is on a distinguished road
I was looking for Solaris One 37 and came across 2008 Mylius 14E55. Carbon semi-custom yacht for the price of Hanse?
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1536  
Old 10-18-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,170
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Quote:
Originally Posted by G1000 View Post
I was looking for Solaris One 37 and came across 2008 Mylius 14E55. Carbon semi-custom yacht for the price of Hanse?
You mean 320 000€ more 5% commission more 21% Italian VAT if you want to sail it in Europe? That is 403 200€. Yes I know that it is an expensive boat, back in 2008 it costed 470 000€ without taxes but luxury boats are the ones that get the biggest devaluation and this is a 3 year old boat and as it is already out of season you can look at it as a 4 year old boat.

Another thing that contributes to the devaluation is that the interior, that, as I had said to the 11m, is not nothing special, I would say that it is even on the ugly side.

I bet you can get it for a lot less and even if the interior is nothing special this is a very good sailboat

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-18-2011 at 06:54 PM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1537  
Old 10-18-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,170
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Well I guess this beauty is in trouble:

Maxi Yachts

We have been following here its development and the boat should be presented in Dusseldorf boat show, in January 2012 but I guess that the project is stopped by now.

Maxy yachts belonged to Najad and contrary to Najad yachts it will not be retained by the ones that have bought Najad. Maxi yachts is for sale and if they don't find a buyer it can be the end of Maxi Yachts...and just now when they were doing something interesting
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1538  
Old 10-18-2011
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 255
Thanks: 0
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Rep Power: 4
G1000 is on a distinguished road
Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
back in 2008 it costed 470 000€
Probably this price was just for a basic spec and with add-ons 564 000€. Now it is even down to 300 000€, 3 years and half price Sorry for this off topic.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1539  
Old 10-19-2011
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 141
Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Rep Power: 4
daviid is on a distinguished road
Hi Paulo

Thamks for the bit on prismatic co-efficient - much obliged. If you have already posted on hull speed elsewhere, let me have a link when you get a chance. I have a better understanding now but I am sure there is more to it.

David
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
  #1540  
Old 10-19-2011
PCP's Avatar
PCP PCP is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal, West Coast
Posts: 16,170
Thanks: 21
Thanked 96 Times in 80 Posts
Rep Power: 10
PCP will become famous soon enough
Yes David, I am sure I had posted something about it but cannot find it so I will try to make a new post about the basic stuff.

first look at this picture:



The graphic represents the increased force needed for two 10m heavy displacement long keel boat due to drag while the speed increases. One boat has a prismatic coefficient of 0.53 and the fuller one (but with the same beam one) 0.62.

We can see that between 5 and 7.3K speed the one with thinner entries need considerably less force. We can see also that over 7.3 the fatter boat has a very slight advantage over that speed. We can see also that for taking advantage of that benefice we will need about 3 times more force than the one that needed to sail the boat at 6K, an huge force that can only be generated downwind with big winds and huge sails with enormous stress to the rig and boat.

A negligible advantage considering that the advantage of the thinner boat with less force (less wind and sail) will be much more exploitable.

I don't have a graphic with the same boat, same hull and half the weight but what you would give a much fuller curve that would show that the boat would need less force for getting the same speed and that's because with half weight the boat would have a lot less wet surface and therefore less drag. Things would improve, in what regards the needed force, if we take out the full keel and put a narrow fin keel and spade ruder: less wet surface again, so less drag.

On a light boat the end of the curve would not close so sharply meaning that the boat given adequate power could go much more easily over hull speed and on that particular point a more fuller shape can have advantage because the power needed to put the boat over hull speed is not unattainable and the needed force will be less with a fuller shape. Off course a fuller shape will gain there but will lose on the force needed at smaller speeds, or against waves were the drag would increase more than with a thinner shape.

So the factors are less wet surface, less prismatic coefficient and more power. Regarding power it is convenient to remember that a more fuller shape will also provide more form stability increasing drag but also the power needed to overcome it. That makes for instance an Open 60 or a 40class boat able to get a good performance against the wind and waves but that at the cost of more needed power (more sail area) and more pounding.

So let's have a look at the boats that you were talking about, the Salona 38 (the Salona 37 has the same hull) and the Dufour 375:

The Salona has a slightly bigger waterline: 10.15 m to 9.89, less 660kg of weight (6300 to 6960), less 23cm of beam (362 to 385) and a considerable better prismatic coefficient not only because it has less beam for the same lenght but also because it has thinner entries.

The Salona also has considerable more ballast (420kg more) for a similar keel with the same draft (2270 kg to 1850 kg - 1.95m draft) and an even bigger difference in ballast/displacement ratio : 0.360 to 0.266.

The bigger form stability of the Dufour is not able to compensate the difference in the righting moment given by the much superior D/B ratio of the Salona and so this one has the power to carry much more sail, more 26 m2 (88.4 to 67.0).

The Salona will have less drag due to a better prismatic coefficient and to a less wet surface (lower weight) it is more stiff (more righting moment) and has much more power (more sail area/righting moment).

That curve between the Salona and the Dufour will show that the Salona will need noticeably less power to a given speed and has the Salona has more power available that will make it a much faster boat even if near hull speed the differences would not be so noticeable.

The bigger difference will be with lighter winds (less than 12K) were the Salona will be considerably faster, especially in very weak winds (less than 9K). And also in high winds, downwind were the superior beam of the Dufour will not be able to compensate the much lesser weight and the ability for the Salona to carry more sail. For the recorded experience (mine and from others) with this kind of boats, downwind with a lot of wind it will be difficult for the Dufour to go over 10k while for the Salona that difficulty will happen at about 12K, and I am talking in sailing in about 30/35K wind with waves that would help the boats to surf. Boats like the Salona can go under Spinnaker with an experienced crew to speeds of 16K and that is just not possible with the Dufour.

The Dufour will also lose clearly in the superior capacity that the Salona will have to accelerate in all puffs of air (less weight, more sail) on the capacity to close downwind and also in the capacity to maintain speed upwind against waves. Here the lesser prismatic coefficient of the Salona will permit him to have less wave drag while its superior righting moment (power) will make it able to sustain speed while the Dufour will stale.

The Dufour will only have an advantage and that is that in medium winds probably the boat will sail with less heel than the Salona, due to its major component in form stability.

In what regards reserve stability and seaworthiness, the Salona will have a much better righting moment at 90º, a better AVS and a smaller inverted stability.

David, I have taken so much time answering you because your's was a good question and one that will explain the difference in two different boat concepts and not necessarily between a Salona and a Dufour 375. If we compare a Benetau 37 or a Bavaria 38 with a Xp 38 or a J 125 the results are not going to be much different.

Finally as last comet about those differences, something that you have already discovered on the Dufour 34e (even in its soft version) in comparison with the Jeanneau 36i: The performance boat is much more nervous and agreeable (fun) to steer.

A final warning: That huge difference in sail (21.4m2) between the Salona and Dufour is not only due to the superior righting moment of the Salona but because the Salona has more sail for a given righting moment (like all really performance boats towards cruisers). That will make it probably a boat that will need to reef earlier (or at least at the same time) and a more nervous boat that will demand a more experienced sailor (not necessarily a more dangerous boat, quite the opposite but one that is more difficult to sail).

That's why most performance cruisers have a softer version, with a smaller mast and less sails for the ones that want to have the power and the safety without having a nervous and more demanding boat. However much of these detuned and less expensive versions also have a lesser righting moment because the hull is made out of a different material (epoxy versus inferior and heavier resins) and therefore more heavier or because to a smaller draft does not correspond the needed increment in weight to maintain the same righting curve. Pay attention to that.

Regarding to the Salona that I am trying to obtain I will want it with more 250kg on the ballast (that is the same 2270kg but on a 2.25keel), just to carry all that sail without the need to reef earlier, to have a more powerful and less nervous boat with heavier weather and also one with a better reserve stability. The better of two worlds

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-19-2011 at 09:19 AM.
Reply With Quote Share with Facebook
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 8 (0 members and 8 guests)
 
Thread Tools

 
Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may post attachments
You may edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Cruising sailboats for sale welch Cruising & Liveaboard Forum 10 04-25-2012 05:20 PM
THE Yacht Builder List T37Chef Boat Review and Purchase Forum 26 07-08-2011 05:51 AM
Noob wonderings and questions about sailing, life at sail and sailboats Vans General Discussion (sailing related) 49 06-20-2011 12:18 AM
A List of ALL sailboats made with layouts? Myblueheaven Boat Review and Purchase Forum 8 10-08-2010 11:32 AM
Failure to Navigate - interesting post on Panbo Blog & from the NewsReader Mass Bay Sailors 0 12-11-2006 06:15 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:20 PM.

Add to My Yahoo!         
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1
(c) Marine.com LLC 2000-2012

The SailNet.com store is owned and operated by a company independent of the SailNet.com forum. You are now leaving the SailNet forum. Click OK to continue or Cancel to return to the SailNet forum.