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  #1581  
Old 10-27-2011
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Talking

Hi Paulo,

That is a very interesting comparative between the Daysailer and the Malango. Not expected and not so good for the proponents of more beamy modern hulls. Id like to know more details.

Is it fair to say that in light winds, the more classic narrow hulls like an e33 daysailer (love the boat) would beat the pogo 10.50 or First 30 upwind? and even downwind??

Remember I'm new to this asking these weird questions.
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Last edited by Chimbatete; 10-27-2011 at 10:28 PM.
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  #1582  
Old 10-28-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Half surprise from Halber-Rassy: What seemed to be an isolated experience with the 372 has turning now on a new line. HR is making a new aft cockpit boat, the HR 412.

On HR, Only boats smaller than 37ft were aft cockpit boats, the offshore HR were basically center cockpit boats but now, with the sells from the 37 center cockpit much worse than the ones from the 372 (aft cockpit) and losing sales to the new line of cruising boats from X yachts, HR decided to offer a 41ft boat with an aft cockpit. The 40ft center cockpit boat will be maintained.

This boat is also the first beamy HR: 4.11m. The old center cockpit 40ft had only 3.82m.

The boat share similar characteristics with the XC-42 but it seems to me that the XC has a more modern design and surprisingly a bit better D/B ratio.

Anyway, a more modern and good looking HR is always good news. The basic price of the new boat will be around: 435 000 Ä
Paulo,
I think the reasoning for HR to build a larger 372, was not out of pressure by X yachts, but simply dictated by the immense success of the 372. In 2 years, HR built more than 70 HR372's. I would be interrested how many XC 38's have been built.
I recently had the opportunity to crew on the delivery of a HR 372 from Connecticut to the Annapolis Show. The performance, seaworthiness, and layout/ functionality down below is about as perfect as I could imagine. Designed with sailing and comfortable life aboard in mind.
As far as performance, we knocked off about 200 nm a day, in a combination of motoring, sailing and motor-sailing. Hard on the wind, we clocked about 6kn in 10kn wind, and I saw the speed climb to above 8 kn in 14 kn wind on a beam reach. Cruising World did a testsail after the Show, in 15-20kn wind, we'll see what they have to say.
The problem for me: This trip has made it very hard to appreciate affordable production boats ( with the sticker: "starting at" )at the Annapolis Show, as the HR 372 really set the bar for what I am personally looking for in a vessel.
I wonder where Mega Millions Lottery jackpot is today......
Bernd
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  #1583  
Old 10-28-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
Hi Paulo,

That is a very interesting comparative between the Daysailer and the Malango. Not expected and not so good for the proponents of more beamy modern hulls. Id like to know more details.

Is it fair to say that in light winds, the more classic narrow hulls like an e33 daysailer (love the boat) would beat the pogo 10.50 or First 30 upwind? and even downwind??

Remember I'm new to this asking these weird questions.
Reality is what it is and each kind of hull has advantages, and one of them is interior space. For cruising a hull as narrow as the one from daydream would have very little interior space.

Regarding speed with light wind, a narrow boat, assuming equal displacement and similar keel will need less power to sail at the same same speed, comparing with a beamier boat.

The beamier boat compensates this superior need of power with a superior righting moment given by its much superior form stability (the necessary bigger B/D of the narrow boat is normally not enough to compensate that) and with enough wind the extra power and extra sail can compensate that superior need.

But in light wind sometimes the bigger sails just cannot generate the extra power to match the lesser needs of the narrow boat and that's what has happened on that boat test.

Regarding boat design it is very difficult, for the same length, to have a narrow cruiser with the same displacement that have a beamy cruiser, like the ones that have its form derived from open boats. The Open type boat has a lot of stability coming from form stability while the narrower boat has to compensate the diference with more ballast... and lead is heavy

Compare for instance the 1.9T of ballast of a Pogo 12.50 with the 3.3T of ballast that has a First 40. Obviously the Pogo is a lighter boat but that does not mean that it will be always faster. Note that the Pogo has, among that type of boats, a big B/D ratio.

Each boat design is a different compromise between many things, from rocker, prismatic coefficient to hull stability passing for B/D, weight and many more variables. Even when performance is what matters, different variables give boats that are better under some conditions or some sail points and worse in others.

There is no doubt that Open class type boats are better solo downwind because they give the extra stability that makes them more easily exploited solo while giving the extra power to compensate their big prismatic coefficient that gives more drag to the boat.

It is not by accident that if you compare a Open 40, the best type to sail upwind solo, with the fastest type of boats to sail offshore in mixed conditions, like the Ker 40, the Soto 40 or the Farr 400, you will find that while these share many similarities between them, they are all very different from the Open boat or a Class 40 (Pogo) in what regards beam and B/D ratio.

The Ker and company are in those mixed conditions much faster than a class 40, but also more difficult to sail, specially downwind.

There is no easy answer or perfect performance cruiser and each one has its particular blend of strong and weaker points, more or less adapted to solo sailing, more or less fast upwind or downwind, passing better waves or pounding more and normally what makes one thing better makes other worse.

For instance, on that last race that I was talking about an Azuree 40, a performance cruiser I have posted about on this thread, a boat that shares many characteristics with the Pogo 12.50, lost about 17 hours for the fastest j 122 ( one that was really fast since he won in compensated) and 5 hours to an older First 40.7 (that is slower than the "new First" 40), both more traditional performance cruisers. If this race was instead of a race with variable winds, a Transat, with most of the time with downwind sailing, I think the results would be the opposite.

The choice is for each sailor, and the boat I would chose would not be the boat another sailor would chose. This thread is not about a particular type of boat but about all types of good sailboats and about the knowledge needed for choosing the one that fits each particular sailor.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-28-2011 at 01:22 PM.
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  #1584  
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Thanks Paulo that was great I get the gist.

Question. When youre talking about Open class boat (wide beams) and their stability, you are talking about initial stability right? So lets say in a race of variable winds, wouldnt boats like the Luffes and Salonas have the advantage because they are faster in light winds and have better secondary stability in rough waters?

Only thing I can think a boat like the pogo having an advantage is on a run in moderately strong winds. Am I wrong? Of course there are exceptions like the Opium which can do 8kts upwind on 8kt TWS.
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  #1585  
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So.... plumb bows, open transoms, max beam aft, and now 'chines'....

Style or substance????
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  #1586  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PCP View Post
Do you have heard about the DSS (Dynamic Stability System)?
Well, that can be a crazy idea but it works. they have tried it on the Wally 94 Magic Carpet (retrofitted) and the results confirm the tank testing results:

120 degree True Wind Angle (TWA) – performance summary:

Percentage performance increase at 120’ TWA delivered by DSS is from 1.2% at 6knots of wind speed to 44.2% at 25 knots of wind speed

This equates to being 0.14knots faster at 6 knots wind speed and 7 knots faster at 25knots wind speed

The DSS powered Magic Carpet is always faster than the standard Magic Carpet
I think you will find that DSS was in fact not fitted to the boat and the above, as well as the other utterly amazing DSS performance claims for the Wally, is out of a computer only.

To me it seems that the presentation is written where a person easily would be led to think it had been fitted to the boat. I thought so on first reading. One has to look closely to see otherwise. But it does not actually say it was ever fitted let alone sailed, there is no evidence I can find anywhere that it was, and in the "Technical process of data generation" section there is nothing about actually fitting it to this boat, but there is reference to computer generation.

Their wording should be more like, "According to our model Magic Carpet would be faster with DSS."

Last edited by estaban; 10-28-2011 at 03:51 PM.
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  #1587  
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Quote:
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So.... plumb bows, open transoms, max beam aft, and now 'chines'....

Style or substance????
Style is in the eye of the beholder just because I find Alerions (classic but modern underbody) beautiful. Same goes for the Danish offerings such as Faurbys, Luffes.

It is more the performance that concerns a person that does regattas and weeknight races and it seems like these wide boats arent the way to go for that application (upwind performance).

Not even sure if they are the ones to go for long distance races because Paulo already mentioned about a Beneteau winning the Sydney Hobart. I guess if its a predominantly downwind race, then the Pogos, JPKs would be preferred.
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  #1588  
Old 10-28-2011
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Quote:
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So.... plumb bows, open transoms, max beam aft, and now 'chines'....

Style or substance????
Certainly substance. Style has nothing to do with race boats...except when they are designed to a handicap rule.

The first racing boat with chines had chines because it was a plywood boat (class 40). The NA (Lucas) said that the chines were there to improve performance. I thought that the guy was nuts...but the boat turned out to be a winner (and he proved he was right) and in no time the racing fiberglass hulls had also chines.

Plumb bows have to do with maximization of the LWL, open transoms with not having more weight when it serves no purpose, to give more space to the crew and also to evacuate quickly the water from the cockpit. The transom brought back is common to all modern race boats that are not subjected to a handicap rule, narrow and beamy and has to do with better control downwind and more hull form stability without increasing beam.

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-28-2011 at 03:53 PM.
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  #1589  
Old 10-28-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chimbatete View Post
......

Question. When youre talking about Open class boat (wide beams) and their stability, you are talking about initial stability right? So lets say in a race of variable winds, wouldnt boats like the Luffes and Salonas have the advantage because they are faster in light winds and have better secondary stability in rough waters?

Only thing I can think a boat like the pogo having an advantage is on a run in moderately strong winds. Am I wrong? Of course there are exceptions like the Opium which can do 8kts upwind on 8kt TWS.
Hei! Hei! Actually the Pogo 12.50 is faster than the Opium 39

By secondary stability I guess you are talking a bout reserve stability? That one is not used for sailing, in good or bad weather, just for surviving when things are really very bad.

I hate to talk about what I don't have direct information and I have never saw results of a Pogo 12.50 or Opium 39 racing offshore against more common types of performance cruisers. The Opium 39 had won the first leg of a solo race but 35ft and 32ft narrower boats had similar performances (A 35 and SF 32).

The results I can compare are from the racing version of Pogo, the 40class race boat, a much faster boat and even so in difficult races upwind some more traditional performance cruisers can be faster or at leas as fast.

The conditions were a very good traditional performance cruiser can do better is upwind in bad weather, against waves, were the wave drag brakes more the beamy class 40.

But we are forgetting an important thing here: Money. It is more cheaper to made a top performance boat if it is a beamier one, with lots of initial stability.

Top performers with a high B/D ratio, like the Ker 37, j122, Santa Cruz 37 or King 40 are expensive boats. The huge ballast on the bulb of those boats demands a very strong structure to distribute the forces by the hull and as the boat has lots of weight in lead, it has to have a lighter stronger and very expensive hull to compensate the weight that is "lost" in ballast, comparing with a beamier boat.

Pogo 12.50 and Opium 39 offers very good performance at a very good price....I know, you are going to say that the First 40 is inexpensive. I am sure the performance one is less expensive than the boats I have mentioned but the one that they sell cheaply is the CR. They have a true performance boat but I don't know the price and they don't make it public. The differences are many. Just for starting the CR as a monolithic hull, the performance first has a cored hull, has all true performance boats

Regards

Paulo

Last edited by PCP; 10-28-2011 at 04:39 PM.
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  #1590  
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Paulo have you posted the Aquila RP45. Sorry if you have and sorry i dont know how to make image smaller.

Beautiful and versatile racer cruiser. It looks like a missile but it has a nice spacious interior.







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